Author Topic: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?  (Read 8822 times)

Roses

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2020, 11:34:57 AM »
I have noticed that some atheists equate religion with fairy stories.
I wonder if an atheist could explain why they use the term 'fairy story' in the perjorative and why they equate religion with fairy stories?

Fairy stories are tales which lack credibility, as do the tales relating to religion.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2020, 12:11:35 PM »
Fairy stories are tales which lack credibility..........
So I was right about “The God Delusion”.

Roses

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2020, 12:16:02 PM »
So I was right about “The God Delusion”.

If you mean Biblical literalists are deluded, you are correct.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Owlswing

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2020, 12:50:32 PM »

What a mature response.


Maybe if you made a mature comment you would get a mature response.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Aruntraveller

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2020, 01:07:24 PM »
Fairy stories are tales which lack credibility, as do the tales relating to religion.

It seems silly to dismiss things with a "that's rubbish" approach. Fairy tales may not be credible in the true sense of the word but a one sentence dismissal of those, and of tales from religion is dismissing an incredible number of stories that tell us much about our past and our superstitions. See here for  on overview of fairy tales:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_tale
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SteveH

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2020, 01:50:14 PM »
Fairy stories are tales which lack credibility, as do the tales relating to religion.
...but which may have very profound allegorical and mythical meanings, as may the tales relating to religion.
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Roses

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2020, 01:53:57 PM »
...but which may have very profound allegorical and mythical meanings, as may the tales relating to religion.

That is a matter of opinion.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2020, 02:20:17 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I am well aware of the atheist humbug. OK to piss on theists…

Who does that?

Quote
…but you tell an atheist that you think the sainted Douglas Adams was a **nt or educate them on the Larry Krauss experience and then see what happens.

“What happens” is that it’s explained to you that you’re indulging in ad hominem attacks that say nothing at all about their ideas. In turn you just ignore being found out, go quiet for a bit, then repeat the same fallacy.

‘twas ever thus. 
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God

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2020, 02:23:44 PM »
...but which may have very profound allegorical and mythical meanings, as may the tales relating to religion.

Allegoric, yes - many fairy tales are either deliberately intended or subsequently amended/interpreted to have a moral or lesson to teach, or an insight to deliver.  As to what might be meant by 'mythical' meaning that's fraught - sometimes 'mythic' is used to imply something that may have had real-world origins before it was distorted by subsequent retellings, reinventions and reimaginings.

I'm not sure anyone suggests that religious tales have no profound allegorical lessons - some might dispute which lessons remain valid and which are a product of their time - but the key point is that there's no reason from the stories themselves to presume that they should be treated as a different class of work from fairy tales.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2020, 02:24:45 PM »
I'm not sure anyone suggests that religious tales have no profound allegorical lessons - some might dispute which lessons remain valid and which are a product of their time - but the key point is that there's no reason from the stories themselves to presume that they should be treated as a different class of work from fairy tales.

That is a matter of opinion.

I stand corrected...  :-X

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2020, 04:40:05 PM »
Allegoric, yes - many fairy tales are either deliberately intended or subsequently amended/interpreted to have a moral or lesson to teach, or an insight to deliver.  As to what might be meant by 'mythical' meaning that's fraught - sometimes 'mythic' is used to imply something that may have had real-world origins before it was distorted by subsequent retellings, reinventions and reimaginings.

I'm not sure anyone suggests that religious tales have no profound allegorical lessons - some might dispute which lessons remain valid and which are a product of their time - but the key point is that there's no reason from the stories themselves to presume that they should be treated as a different class of work from fairy tales.

O.
Indeed I mentioned the allegorical aspects of religious stories, upthread.

I think the issue here is that fairy stories, myths etc don't claim to be literally true, whereas people do claim religious stories to be literally true. That is why I (and I suspect many others) have no problem with tales of myth and folklore and enjoy and learn from them in terms of allegorical message and the insight they provide to ancient cultures and societies. Yet I do have a problem with religion specifically as they often claim as literal truth fantastic and incredulous events, without a scrap of evidence. Drop the claim to actual truth and accept the claims of religion to be myth and stories which may have useful insight and you'll gain far more acceptance.

The difference between myth and religion is that people typically no longer believe the former to be literally true (although they almost certainly did once). In due course, no doubt, people will talk about Christian myths in the same manner as we talk today of Greek mythology.

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2020, 08:01:41 AM »
I think the issue here is that fairy stories, myths etc don't claim to be literally true, whereas people do claim religious stories to be literally true.

That is why I (and I suspect many others) have no problem with tales of myth and folklore and enjoy and learn from them in terms of allegorical message and the insight they provide to ancient cultures and societies. Yet I do have a problem with religion specifically as they often claim as literal truth fantastic and incredulous events, without a scrap of evidence. Drop the claim to actual truth and accept the claims of religion to be myth and stories which may have useful insight and you'll gain far more acceptance.

The difference between myth and religion is that people typically no longer believe the former to be literally true (although they almost certainly did once). In due course, no doubt, people will talk about Christian myths in the same manner as we talk today of Greek mythology.

I agree, generally, that's sort of what I was trying to aim at - that the difference isn't a facet of the stories themselves, but rather where they stand in the culture.  Snow White is written as though it's 'real', just as much as the Bible is, it's about how it's interpreted as to whether they're real events or not.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2020, 09:56:52 AM »
  Snow White is written as though it's 'real', just as much as the Bible is
Sounds like an audacious claim. Any citations?

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2020, 10:09:09 AM »
Sounds like an audacious claim. Any citations?

Read it.  Does it say in the story that it's just a story, or does it operate in its own universe where it is reality?  Just like the Bible does. Just like Lord of the Rings does.  Just like Run Spot Run does.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2020, 10:13:14 AM »
Read it.  Does it say in the story that it's just a story, or does it operate in its own universe where it is reality?  Just like the Bible does. Just like Lord of the Rings does.  Just like Run Spot Run does.
O.
But doesn't authors intent come into it?
Besides with regard to the New Testament the Christian narrative is there in epistiolary, basically the society memos of the early church rather than obvious stories or novel form.

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2020, 10:53:07 AM »
But doesn't authors intent come into it?

It might, if you could be sure that you knew it.  With most fairy tales, and certainly with much of both Old and New Testaments, there's doubt about exactly who any original authors may have been, and whether they were merely documenting/amalgamating older oral works

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Besides with regard to the New Testament the Christian narrative is there in epistiolary, basically the society memos of the early church rather than obvious stories or novel form.

Which come after the stories, and are reliant on the interpretation of those stories as to some extent real.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2020, 10:54:56 AM »
It might, if you could be sure that you knew it.  With most fairy tales, and certainly with much of both Old and New Testaments, there's doubt about exactly who any original authors may have been, and whether they were merely documenting/amalgamating older oral works

Which come after the stories, and are reliant on the interpretation of those stories as to some extent real.

O.
No the epistles come before the Gospels.

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2020, 10:55:51 AM »
No the epistles come before the Gospels.

They were documented after the Epistles, but the STORY predates the Epistles.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2020, 11:02:25 AM »
They were documented after the Epistles, but the STORY predates the Epistles.

O.
I don’t know what you mean.
You need also be reminded of the phenomena of the true story.

Outrider

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2020, 11:40:44 AM »
I don’t know what you mean.

I think it's fairly self evident, I can't see any better way to explain it.

Quote
You need also be reminded of the phenomena of the true story.

Do you mean the phenomena something needs to be a true story, or are you suggesting that the core story in the Gospels is a true story?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Roses

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2020, 08:57:32 AM »
I have noticed that some atheists equate religion with fairy stories.
I wonder if an atheist could explain why they use the term 'fairy story' in the perjorative and why they equate religion with fairy stories?

Much of the Bible is as credible as the Harry Potter books, which are a better read.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Owlswing

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2020, 09:04:48 AM »

Much of the Bible is as credible as the Harry Potter books, which are a better read.


Agreed!

I sometimes wonder if "fairy stories" in this context should not be replaced with "fiction"!

The bible is, to my way of thinking, in no way a book to entertain children although the "hidden message" part of some "fairy stories" is applicable to the bible.   
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 09:11:29 AM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Roses

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2020, 11:33:15 AM »
Agreed!

I sometimes wonder if "fairy stories" in this context should not be replaced with "fiction"!

The bible is, to my way of thinking, in no way a book to entertain children although the "hidden message" part of some "fairy stories" is applicable to the bible.

I will use the term 'fiction' in future.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Owlswing

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2020, 05:43:15 PM »

I will use the term 'fiction' in future.


Thank you, Ma'am!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is it with atheists and fairy stories?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »
I will use the term 'fiction' in future.
If you are asserting the Bible is fiction could you also break the habit of as long as I've been on this message board, do the decent thing and justify that assertion.

That request also goes to Owlswing.