Post Covid 19 beliefs

[Enki]

I had hoped that the experience with Covid 19 would have made at least some people contemplate their own impermanence, nature of death, nature of ultimate reality and so on....

Clearly certain mindsets don't change so easily.   

What arrogance you show, Sriram! You originally asked a series of open questions to which various people gave their honest responses. However, now we find that if you didn't like their responses because they don't fit your take on the nature of life and death, you tend to label them as people who haven't thought deeply about 'their own impermanence etc.' and then accuse them of having rigid mindsets. On the contrary, people can think deeply about these things, Sriram, and they can come to entirely different conclusions to you, in many cases giving clear and well thought out reasons why they don't. Perhaps you need to think about their conclusions and their reasoning instead of dismissing them with the arrogance which seems to stem from a rather over inflated ego. Indeed, perhaps you need to take heed of your own suggestions and come to terms with your own sense of self importance.    

[ProfessorDavey]

What arrogance you show, Sriram! You originally asked a series of open questions to which various people gave their honest responses. However, now we find that if you didn't like their responses because they don't fit your take on the nature of life and death, you tend to label them as people who haven't thought deeply about 'their own impermanence etc.' and then accuse them of having rigid mindsets. On the contrary, people can think deeply about these things, Sriram, and they can come to entirely different conclusions to you, in many cases giving clear and well thought out reasons why they don't. Perhaps you need to think about their conclusions and their reasoning instead of dismissing them with the arrogance which seems to stem from a rather over inflated ego. Indeed, perhaps you need to take heed of your own suggestions and come to terms with your own sense of self importance.

I agree.

While Sriram is polite in his posting, he comes across as arrogant and pompous - he has an incredible fixed mind-set and cannot see beyond it. But the biggest problem is that mindset leads him to feel that people need to go on a spiritual journey to better themselves, and of course that spiritual journey ends in the same mindset as he has.

He doesn't seem to be able to understand that there are other ways of looking at the world, which are based on evidence rather than conjecture, and that people who do not hold to his mindset and world view can still look at the natural world in wonder and awe, can still reflect on what is important to them as individuals and as communities, can still take ethical positions, can still love and be loved etc etc.

And I find his tactic of linking to his own articles on the web irritating - somehow he's implying he is some kind of expert, but all that it on those articles is ill-informed and ill thought through conjecture.

[Sriram]

I don't see that reducing one's ego is particularly relevant.  If there is something 'beyond our physical existence', then there needs to be some evidence and rationale for that for it to be convincing.  Covid-19 hasn't provided any such thing, it has only provided more evidence as if any were needed that people die when they die. Clearly people miss their dearly departed and would love to think they can be reunited somehow , somewhere, but to entertain such ideas in the absence of evidence is mere delusion brought on by allowing emotions to supervene over reasoning.  To seek truth requires a dispassionate mind.

Covid 19 is not going to show us any strange and glorious external reality other than what we have already seen. Why do you keep saying that.....?!

There is an external reality....and there is an inner reality. Once the focus on the external world diminishes, the realization of the inner world grows...at least in many people.

That is what I am talking about.

Most of you people really surprise me with your complete and utter lack of understanding of such matters.  You may not agree...but at least you should be able to understand.   

[Bramble]

Most of you people really surprise me ...

You don't surprise me any more, Sriram.

Here's a story for you. If you've heard it before then it will bear repeating, I think.

Once, a long time ago, there was a wise Zen master. People from far and near would seek his counsel and ask for his wisdom. Many would come and ask him to teach them, enlighten them in the way of Zen. He seldom turned any away.

One day an important man, a man used to command and obedience came to visit the master. “I have come today to ask you to teach me about Zen. Open my mind to enlightenment.” The tone of the important man’s voice was one used to getting his own way.

The Zen master smiled and said that they should discuss the matter over a cup of tea. When the tea was served the master poured his visitor a cup. He poured and he poured and the tea rose to the rim and began to spill over the table and finally onto the robes of the wealthy man. Finally the visitor shouted, “Enough. You are spilling the tea all over. Can’t you see the cup is full?”

The master stopped pouring and smiled at his guest. “You are like this tea cup, so full that nothing more can be added. Come back to me when the cup is empty. Come back to me with an empty mind.”

[ProfessorDavey]

Covid 19 is not going to show us any strange and glorious external reality other than what we have already seen. Why do you keep saying that.....?!

There is an external reality....and there is an inner reality. Once the focus on the external world diminishes, the realization of the inner world grows...at least in many people.

But the issue here is your mumbo-jumbo phraseology - external reality, internal reality and the like, which implies some kind of accepted spiritual purpose. I don't accept that, but I am perfectly willing to accept (as I did in a previous post) that the current situation has made a lot of people reassess what is important and what is not. But that doesn't seem to be enough for you, Sriram - you seem only satisfied if people buy into your spiritual, Ego (with a capital E), purpose - nonsense.

Most of you people really surprise me with your complete and utter lack of understanding of such matters.  You may not agree...but at least you should be able to understand.   

I'm sorry Sriram - it is you who seems to have a complete failure to understand, and indeed a profound lack of empathy. You seem completely unable to see that people can see the same world as you but in a different way and that their way might just actually have some semblance of evidence-base to it and therefore not to be very impressed with your completely unevidenced assertions and conjecture.

[Enki]

Covid 19 is not going to show us any strange and glorious external reality other than what we have already seen. Why do you keep saying that.....?!

There is an external reality....and there is an inner reality. Once the focus on the external world diminishes, the realization of the inner world grows...at least in many people.

That is what I am talking about.

Most of you people really surprise me with your complete and utter lack of understanding of such matters.  You may not agree...but at least you should be able to understand.   

How do you know that what you call the 'inner reality' isn't known to me? How do you know that it is not you who are so fixated by your own interpretation of your own 'inner reality' that you don't actually recognise, appreciate or understand that others can have an 'inner reality' which they relate to the 'external reality' in a different way to you?

Let's take an example, the idea of an afterlife giving purpose and meaning to what we do in this life. I've met plenty of people who believe in such a thing and if you walk into any cemetery you are surrounded by such hopes and wishes impressed upon the gravestones. I'm not knocking it at all.  For me,  it is instantly appealing and understandable. However when I relate it to what the external world has to tell me, I find no evidence at all that this afterlife exists, (which includes NDEs, by the way, for reasons that I have given you in the past). Hence I refute your idea that I have no understanding of the idea and the need felt by some people for an afterlife. I simply find it highly improbable because there is no valid evidence to support it. That is not to say that I am right, of course, but that doesn't necessarily make me incapable of understanding the ideas that might flow from it, such as the idea of a some intrinsic purpose to everything.

It seems to me you presume too much.

   

[Owlswing]

How do you know that what you call the 'inner reality' isn't known to me? How do you know that it is not you who are so fixated by your own interpretation of your own 'inner reality' that you don't actually recognise, appreciate or understand that others can have an 'inner reality' which they relate to the 'external reality' in a different way to you?

Let's take an example, the idea of an afterlife giving purpose and meaning to what we do in this life. I've met plenty of people who believe in such a thing and if you walk into any cemetery you are surrounded by such hopes and wishes impressed upon the gravestones. I'm not knocking it at all.  For me,  it is instantly appealing and understandable. However when I relate it to what the external world has to tell me, I find no evidence at all that this afterlife exists, (which includes NDEs, by the way, for reasons that I have given you in the past). Hence I refute your idea that I have no understanding of the idea and the need felt by some people for an afterlife. I simply find it highly improbable because there is no valid evidence to support it. That is not to say that I am right, of course, but that doesn't necessarily make me incapable of understanding the ideas that might flow from it, such as the idea of a some intrinsic purpose to everything.

I am a Pagan and one of my beliefs, one to which I hold dearly, is in a cycle of lfe - life - birth - life - death - re-birth. So yes I do believe in an after-life and a re-birth after the after-life.

However. in contradiction to some other religion's beliefs, that is all it is in my belief - a matter of faith. I have no proof that it exists, but I strongly believe that it does and I do not demand that others believe as I do and I do not consider that those who do not agree with my belief are wrong.

 

[Nearly Sane]

I am a Pagan and one of my beliefs, one to which I hold dearly, is in a cycle of lfe - life - birth - life - death - re-birth. So yes I do believe in an after-life and a re-birth after the after-life.

However. in contradiction to some other religion's beliefs, that is all it is in my belief - a matter of faith. I have no proof that it exists, but I strongly believe that it does and I do not demand that others believe as I do and I do not consider that those who do not agree with my belief are wrong.

But why do you think your beliefs are right?

[ProfessorDavey]

I am a Pagan and one of my beliefs, one to which I hold dearly, is in a cycle of lfe - life - birth - life - death - re-birth. So yes I do believe in an after-life and a re-birth after the after-life.

However. in contradiction to some other religion's beliefs, that is all it is in my belief - a matter of faith. I have no proof that it exists, but I strongly believe that it does and I do not demand that others believe as I do and I do not consider that those who do not agree with my belief are wrong.

People can believe what they like, but unless they can back those beliefs up with evidence then all that is left is a subjective opinion. And I agree that you don't ram your opinion down other's throats.

But I think the issue with Sriram which is so infuriating isn't claiming his beliefs to be true (that's easy to bat away) - no it is his smug superiority that anyone who doesn't accept his unevidenced mumbo-jumbo is somehow lesser than him - that somehow he is more worthy for believing in reincarnation, karma and Ego (with a capital E).

[Owlswing]

But why do you think your beliefs are right?

Because, I suppose, I want to! I have had experiences which suggest to me that it is so.

I do not have any proof that it is fact. I have faith that it is, but no proof, hence why I ask no-one else to believe as I do.

Paganism is, in a lot of ways, a very personal and not a public religion. Both the lady Rhannoni and I are Pagans, but we each follow our own oath, two paths which may never again, after her departure from the torum ever cross again, until, possibly, the Summerlands.

Thus it will have to remain faith until I enter the Summerlands or do not!

[Nearly Sane]

Because, I suppose, I want to! I have had experiences which suggest to me that it is so.

I do not have any proof that it is fact. I have faith that it is, but no proof, hence why I ask no-one else to believe as I do.

Paganism is, in a lot of ways, a very personal and not a public religion. Both the lady Rhannoni and I are Pagans, but we each follow our own oath, two paths which may never again, after her departure from the torum ever cross again, until, possibly, the Summerlands.

Thus it will have to remain faith until I enter the Summerlands or do not!

But why do you 'want' to believe it. What is the reason for your belief?

[ProfessorDavey]

Because, I suppose, I want to!

We might want something to be true so much it hurts - that has no bearing on whether it is true or not.

[Owlswing]

But why do you 'want' to believe it. What is the reason for your belief?

Because it is part of a religious belief  that has seen me through some seriously bad times! Horrendously bad in some cases.

Times when people I know who follow various paths of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, have interpreted scripture to inform me that whatever is happening to me or has happened to me or those dear to me is (and I quote) my own bloody fault for having given up on Christ when I was 15! And those were the polite ones.

It is a path that I can embrace wholeheartedly because everyone, bar one, who I have met as members of that path have been prepared to give everything that they could to help any other member who was in any sort of trouble, big or small, even if it WAS their, or even MY own fault, and would frequently help those who were not getting help from their co-religionists!

The deities connected with the belief path are not superperfect without a blemish on their character. They do not demand that I speak to them on my knees. They have all the foibles of humaity, they did not inflict diseases on humanity and then tell humanity that it should get down on its knees and thank them for inflicting horrendous suffering and loss upon them and thir families.

I am sorry if that is not enough of an explanation for you, it is all that I can give you. If you have specific questiuons then please piost them on the Pagan Topic and I will do my best to answer them within the bounds of my limited intellexct.

Bright Blessings, Love and Light!

 

[Owlswing]

We might want something to be true so much it hurts - that has no bearing on whether it is true or not.

It is true for me. I don't give a donkey's fart it it is not true for anyone outside the Craft!

[ProfessorDavey]

It is true for me. I don't give a donkey's fart it it is not true for anyone outside the Craft!

So it is a subjective opinion about something which is either objectively true or not objectively true.

I have no issues with subjective (true for me) claims for things which are just an opinion, in other words subjective - e.g. I love Mozart's music. But it doesn't really work for something which is a true for everyone claim - e.g. god either exists or does not exist or ... err ... or life after death either exists or doesn't exist. It isn't a subjective claim, but an objective one. So I'm sorry the notion that life after death is just true for you is meaningless - it is either true or it isn't true, as it isn't a subjective claim.

Life after death exists as a claim isn't the equivalent of I like Mozart.

[Nearly Sane]

It is true for me. I don't give a donkey's fart it it is not true for anyone outside the Craft!

True for me though is just giving validation to anyone claiming truth. What value is 'true for you' as a claim?

[Sriram]

But the issue here is your mumbo-jumbo phraseology - external reality, internal reality and the like, which implies some kind of accepted spiritual purpose. I don't accept that, but I am perfectly willing to accept (as I did in a previous post) that the current situation has made a lot of people reassess what is important and what is not. But that doesn't seem to be enough for you, Sriram - you seem only satisfied if people buy into your spiritual, Ego (with a capital E), purpose - nonsense.
I'm sorry Sriram - it is you who seems to have a complete failure to understand, and indeed a profound lack of empathy. You seem completely unable to see that people can see the same world as you but in a different way and that their way might just actually have some semblance of evidence-base to it and therefore not to be very impressed with your completely unevidenced assertions and conjecture.

There is plenty of evidence if you know where to look. One should also have the faculties that enable such observation. One should also have an open mind...and relevant background. Please read my article about Evidence, at my site.

[ProfessorDavey]

There is plenty of evidence if you know where to look.

No there isn't - there may be belief, there may be wishful thinking but there is no evidence.

One should also have the faculties that enable such observation. One should also have an open mind...and relevant background.

Which pretty well perfects defines scientists using the scientific method, which requires scientists to design experiments with an open mind that does not assume a particular claim to be true or not until or unless supported by evidence. Scientist change their minds all the time as new evidence emerges - that is surely the key element of an open mind - that you are prepared to change you mind.

Do you have an open mind Sriram - are you prepared to change your mind as new evidence emerges, for example the neuroscience on consciousness and NDEs.

Please read my article about Evidence, at my site.

Sure - I will.

In the interests of reciprocity Sriram - will you acquaint yourself with the science on the subjects you spout about - go to the original papers (most of which are completely open access) as that's where you'll find the original evidence. Unless perhaps you aren't open-minded enough or perhaps you don't have the relevant background

[Roses]

There is plenty of evidence if you know where to look. One should also have the faculties that enable such observation. One should also have an open mind...and relevant background. Please read my article about Evidence, at my site.

You might have a belief which convinces you is 'evidence', but it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.   

[Owlswing]

ProfessorDavey

« Reply #189 on: 24-05-2020, 23:22:16 »

Quote from: Owlswing on 24-05-2020, 23:09:27

    It is true for me. I don't give a donkey's fart if it is not true for anyone outside the Craft!

Response from ProfessorDavey

So it is a subjective opinion about something which is either objectively true or not objectively true.

I have no issues with subjective (true for me) claims for things which are just an opinion, in other words subjective - e.g. I love Mozart's music. But it doesn't really work for something which is a true for everyone claim - e.g. god either exists or does not exist or ... err ... or life after death either exists or doesn't exist. It isn't a subjective claim, but an objective one. So I'm sorry the notion that life after death is just true for you is meaningless - it is either true or it isn't true, as it isn't a subjective claim.

Life after death exists as a claim isn't the equivalent of I like Mozart.

Response from Nearly Sane

True for me though is just giving validation to anyone claiming truth. What value is 'true for you' as a claim?

I really am not interested in what meaning, deep or otherwise, that anyone else puts on my beliefs!

I am not interested in the deep philosophical (sic) meanings others care to put upon what I say.

They are MY beliefs! I have said I don't care if anyone outside the Carft believes them or not or what objections they put on my beliefs.

I am not asking anyone else to believe as I do! So WTF does it matter what you think of my beliefs. Am I asking anyone to believe as I do, am I telling anyone that if they do not believe as I that they are going to roast in Hell for all eterninty if they are gay, that if they don't baptise their children those are going to Hell for all eternity.

Do I say that my deities are deities of Love who allows children to be born with diseases that will kill them in weeks but you must kneel to the deity or you will go as well?

I am saying others beliefs hold no value for me - and I will argue that the Bible is bollocks purely because of the claims made for it WHEN HELD UP AS THE ONLY WAY FOR OTHERS TO BELIEVE IO OBTAIN AN AFTERLIFE.

I do not understand half of the -isms mentioned by other posters, I am not a mental giant like some here, I am not as educated as some here, but I do know when I am being taken the piss out of and when my beliefs, which hardly anyone on here knows the first idea about but which have helped me when others were too interested in sending me to Hell for my beliefs before offering any help, are being dismissed as bollocks.

I only question the beliefs of others when those others tell me that their beliefs are the only ones that matter or are true for EVERYONE

OK - Rant over.

Apologies to anyone to whom I have caused serious or unwarranted offence.

 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

ProfessorDavey

« Reply #189 on: 24-05-2020, 23:22:16 »

Quote from: Owlswing on 24-05-2020, 23:09:27

    It is true for me. I don't give a donkey's fart if it is not true for anyone outside the Craft!

Response from ProfessorDavey

Response from Nearly Sane

I really am not interested in what meaning, deep or otherwise, that anyone else puts on my beliefs!

I am not interested in the deep philosophical (sic) meanings others care to put upon what I say.

They are MY beliefs! I have said I don't care if anyone outside the Carft believes them or not or what objections they put on my beliefs.

I am not asking anyone else to believe as I do! So WTF does it matter what you think of my beliefs. Am I asking anyone to believe as I do, am I telling anyone that if they do not believe as I that they are going to roast in Hell for all eterninty if they are gay, that if they don't baptise their children those are going to Hell for all eternity.

Do I say that my deities are deities of Love who allows children to be born with diseases that will kill them in weeks but you must kneel to the deity or you will go as well?

I am saying others beliefs hold no value for me - and I will argue that the Bible is bollocks purely because of the claims made for it WHEN HELD UP AS THE ONLY WAY FOR OTHERS TO BELIEVE IO OBTAIN AN AFTERLIFE.

I do not understand half of the -isms mentioned by other posters, I am not a mental giant like some here, I am not as educated as some here, but I do know when I am being taken the piss out of and when my beliefs, which hardly anyone on here knows the first idea about but which have helped me when others were too interested in sending me to Hell for my beliefs before offering any help, are being dismissed as bollocks.

I only question the beliefs of others when those others tell me that their beliefs are the only ones that matter or are true for EVERYONE

OK - Rant over.

Apologies to anyone to whom I have caused serious or unwarranted offence.

The craft?

Craft suggests that something is being fashioned into something else.

What would you say that "something" is? And what would you say it is being fashioned into?

May I say that defensiveness here could well be construed as reinforcing the suspicion that secrecy surrounds your belief system.

[Robbie]

I think I understand what sririam is trying to convey and don't find anything arrogant about it. It could be misunderstanding over how he phrases things, seems clear enough to me.

My beliefs haven't changed because of covid-19 but hope at the end of it we emerge to a world that is kinder. There's not much evidence of that at the moment but we've a way to go.

[Owlswing]

The craft?

Craft suggests that something is being fashioned into something else.

What would you say that "something" is? And what would you say it is being fashioned into?

May I say that defensiveness here could well be construed as reinforcing the suspicion that secrecy surrounds your belief system.

When you can write a post without the sneer ibn your words I might bother to answer you until then . . . 

You are very good at sneering, but the likes of HS and Professor D soon show up your sometimes huge deficiencies (sic) on subjects that require logical thinking instead of an ability to look down what is probably a very long nose on those posting their views and/or beliefs.

In the context of my beliefs craft is written with a capital 'C'! If I put it in the lower case it was yet another of my multiplicity of accidental typo's. Yet another demonstration of the fact that, when it comes to the Craft, you don't know what you are talking about.

Hint - Craft as in 'crafting'.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think I understand what sririam is trying to convey and don't find anything arrogant about it. It could be misunderstanding over how he phrases things, seems clear enough to me.

I think that any view that considers that the universe revolves around humans and their attributes is inherently arrogant. It is, effectively, claiming that humans are the most important thing in the universe - it is 'all about me' - me in this case being human-kind.

It seems to lack both perspective and humility.

[Owlswing]

May I say that defensiveness here could well be construed as reinforcing the suspicion that secrecy surrounds your belief system.

You can say just whatever you like! And you usually do.

Anything that happens in Circle IS covered by an Oath of Secrecy taken by every member of my Coven upon Initiation.

And every other Coven that I have ever had any interaction with.

Just like the Freemason's in that respect.

)O(