Author Topic: General Science question  (Read 3336 times)

SusanDoris

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General Science question
« on: May 20, 2020, 08:27:36 AM »
On the GH boards, there are posters who claim that rocks have some form of consciousness. I understand that quartz crystals are widely used, but do the rocks from which they come, or any rokcks have any measurable energy of any sort?
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Outrider

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 09:22:09 AM »
On the GH boards, there are posters who claim that rocks have some form of consciousness. I understand that quartz crystals are widely used, but do the rocks from which they come, or any rokcks have any measurable energy of any sort?

That rather depends on how you define 'energy', which is a term that gets co-opted and misused in a number of ways, and both deliberately and accidentally.

Ultimately, matter is energy concentrated into a particular framework (Einstein's E=mc2 and all that) so it is energy in one sense.  Most crystalline structures also have a range of harmonic frequencies to which they react which is sometimes referred to as an 'energy', but in that sense there is no energy coming from the crystal itself, it's responding to whatever the source of the vibration is (this is essentially how early digital watches worked - quartz crystals vibrate at exactly 32,768 oscillations per second and can be vibrated by a very minor electrical charge).

In the broader sense any object with mass has various intrinsic forms of energy - gravitational potential energy from being at a particular point in a gravity well, kinetic energy from being in motion - but these are not intrinsic to the crystalline nature, nor are they unique to crystals.

In the conventional scientific thinking the 'spiritual energy' claims of crystals are not backed by any evidence I'm aware of.  Some specific claims about effects purported to be of crystals' 'mystic' properties have been debunked, but there are always new claims and new provisos.

O.
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Stranger

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 09:50:52 AM »
On the GH boards, there are posters who claim that rocks have some form of consciousness.

There is no evidence for this. There is some speculation (guesswork) that consciousness in fundamental and therefore everything is, to a tiny degree, conscious.

I understand that quartz crystals are widely used, but do the rocks from which they come, or any rokcks have any measurable energy of any sort?

As Outrider has indicated, energy in the scientific sense is present in all sorts of forms in rocks, and anything else for that matter, but woo peddlers tend to misuse the term and make unsupported claims about it.

Just one correction to what Outrider said: it's a (very) common misconception that E = mc2 means that energy and matter are equivalent (you even see it in some pop-science books and articles). The m stands for mass, not matter. Both energy and mass are properties of things, not things in themselves.
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jeremyp

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2020, 10:28:28 AM »
On the GH boards, there are posters who claim that rocks have some form of consciousness. I understand that quartz crystals are widely used, but do the rocks from which they come, or any rokcks have any measurable energy of any sort?

This is a variant of panpsychism which has been popularised recently by Philip Goff.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/

The idea is that there is consciousness in everything even down to the fundamental particles of the universe. It's complete nonsense.
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2020, 10:30:32 AM »
That rather depends on how you define 'energy', which is a term that gets co-opted and misused in a number of ways, and both deliberately and accidentally.

Ultimately, matter is energy concentrated into a particular framework (Einstein's E=mc2 and all that) so it is energy in one sense.  Most crystalline structures also have a range of harmonic frequencies to which they react which is sometimes referred to as an 'energy', but in that sense there is no energy coming from the crystal itself, it's responding to whatever the source of the vibration is (this is essentially how early digital watches worked - quartz crystals vibrate at exactly 32,768 oscillations per second and can be vibrated by a very minor electrical charge).

In the broader sense any object with mass has various intrinsic forms of energy - gravitational potential energy from being at a particular point in a gravity well, kinetic energy from being in motion - but these are not intrinsic to the crystalline nature, nor are they unique to crystals.

In the conventional scientific thinking the 'spiritual energy' claims of crystals are not backed by any evidence I'm aware of.  Some specific claims about effects purported to be of crystals' 'mystic' properties have been debunked, but there are always new claims and new provisos.

O.
Many thanks for your very interesting reply. So a small electrical charge of some sort causes crystals to vibrate? What is the state of the rock or crystals when not responding to such an electrical charge?   Do the crystals just keep oscillating at 32,768 per second? What about the rest of the rock in which they are found?
Unfortunately, there is a never-ending set of people who wil do anything they can to try to confirm their faith beliefs.

May I use one or  two of the scientific factual parts of your direct words in my GH response, please?   I will preface them by saying, 'I have found out that....'
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2020, 10:44:27 AM »
Strangers and JeremyP

thank you for your posts. I keep an eagle eye open for all the woo stuff- and there's plenty of it!! -  and do not let it pass unchallenged.
Last week, I started a topic: Aliens and their means of travel. :) It  is interesting to respondand of course at the moment I have plenty of time to do so.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2020, 10:47:18 AM »
What is GH?
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2020, 10:55:10 AM »
What is GH?
It doesn't matter. If you want to investigate, that's up to you. My heart sinks at the thought of you joining - I'd probably have to ignore your posts!!
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Stranger

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2020, 11:23:14 AM »
Many thanks for your very interesting reply. So a small electrical charge of some sort causes crystals to vibrate? What is the state of the rock or crystals when not responding to such an electrical charge?   Do the crystals just keep oscillating at 32,768 per second? What about the rest of the rock in which they are found?

OK, quartz is piezoelectric so mechanical distortion creates an electrical potential and vice versa, which means you can stimulate it with electricity to induce an oscillation that can also be detected electronically.

The resonate frequency depends on the crystal's physical size and shape. They are often literally cut in the shape of a tiny tuning fork. The 32,768 Hz is by design because it's a power of 2 (215), which means you can use simple binary circuits to divide it down to one cycle per second to use in a clock.

See: Quartz clock, and in particular Quartz clock - Mechanism.
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Outrider

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2020, 11:30:51 AM »
Just one correction to what Outrider said: it's a (very) common misconception that E = mc2 means that energy and matter are equivalent (you even see it in some pop-science books and articles). The m stands for mass, not matter. Both energy and mass are properties of things, not things in themselves.

Clarification, rather than correction, I wasn't trying to go into too much depth on it. The equation refers to mass, but the implication of that (given that, in earlier convention, mass and energy were independent things) is that the two are facets of the same concept.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2020, 11:35:18 AM »
Many thanks for your very interesting reply. So a small electrical charge of some sort causes crystals to vibrate? What is the state of the rock or crystals when not responding to such an electrical charge?   Do the crystals just keep oscillating at 32,768 per second? What about the rest of the rock in which they are found?

Without the electrical charge (or some other energy input) there is nothing to make the crystals resonate.  If they are embedded in another rock it starts to get complicated.  Each material within the rock will have its own harmonic frequency - crystalline structures, like quartz, will be fairly consistent, whereas other rock-types will have frequencies that depend more on their shape and the relative densities within sections.  It's possible that a random piece of mixed rock might have a combination of harmonic frequencies where you could get it to resonate, but most often individual elements will dampen each other out and no overall consistent effect will be observed.

The simplest analogy I can think of is that it's a little like 'twanging' a ruler off the edge of a desk, and then trying the same thing with a pencil case which has a ruler in it...

Quote
May I use one or  two of the scientific factual parts of your direct words in my GH response, please?   I will preface them by saying, 'I have found out that....'

You're more than welcome - I'm not a citation on the internet!!! Woohoo! :)

O.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2020, 11:36:00 AM »
It doesn't matter. If you want to investigate, that's up to you. My heart sinks at the thought of you joining - I'd probably have to ignore your posts!!
And a very good day to you too!
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Owlswing

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 12:03:02 PM »

And a very good day to you too!


Considering most of your posts on this Forum, can you really be surprised at the lady's decision?

I'm not!
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 12:13:31 PM »
Strangers and Outrider

Thank you very much for your further replies. I will read them again carefully this afternoon and sort out my GH response.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 01:31:33 PM »
It doesn't matter. If you want to investigate, that's up to you. My heart sinks at the thought of you joining - I'd probably have to ignore your posts!!
I googled. The only GH message board I could find was to do with the soap opera 'General Hospital. I'm not interested in soaps, so you need not fear my sullying your message board.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 01:49:45 PM »
I googled. The only GH message board I could find was to do with the soap opera 'General Hospital. I'm not interested in soaps, so you need not fear my sullying your message board.

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/

SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 03:16:37 PM »
Considering most of your posts on this Forum, can you really be surprised at the lady's decision?

I'm not!
I have just written and posted myresponse about the topic and on the way via this topic and following up the links, I have had a most interesting morning, for which my thanks to all.
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 03:20:27 PM »
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 10:02:26 PM »
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/
Thanks. Looks interesting, but I spend too long online as it is, so I'l spare SD my presence.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2020, 10:04:31 PM »
Considering most of your posts on this Forum, can you really be surprised at the lady's decision?

I'm not!
Mind your own flaming business!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 09:02:53 AM by Jedediah Cleishbotham »
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Roses

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 03:57:38 PM »
Susan I have just joined the GH forum, but haven't as yet posted anything.
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SusanDoris

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2020, 04:25:55 PM »
Susan I have just joined the GH forum, but haven't as yet posted anything.
Thank you for mentioning it. What is your user name there? As you will see, I have posted and  started topics in Inner Space and Paranormal! Any help I can give, please pm here or e-mail me.
It was the first forum I joined, and the other day one of the mods gave me the link to my first post - which contained a spelling error! That was back in 2005.
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Roses

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2020, 05:13:42 PM »
Thank you for mentioning it. What is your user name there? As you will see, I have posted and  started topics in Inner Space and Paranormal! Any help I can give, please pm here or e-mail me.
It was the first forum I joined, and the other day one of the mods gave me the link to my first post - which contained a spelling error! That was back in 2005.

Thanks Susan I have sent you a PM.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2020, 10:13:36 AM »
Decided to join after all. Sorry, SD, I'm afraid you'll just have to put up with me.
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SteveH

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Re: General Science question
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2020, 10:18:35 AM »
Looked up Graham Hancock on Wikipedia. He's obviously a total fruitcake, but the forum might be interesting. I can always leave if the tinfoil-hat brigade get too infuriating.
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