Author Topic: We need to talk about the meaning of existence  (Read 9808 times)

Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2020, 07:57:23 AM »
Yes, the 'relevant object' would be the brain.


But the brain didn't create itself. It is a product of stem cells...and DNA.  There has to be a reason for DNA to form such a complex brain.

Stranger

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2020, 08:18:32 AM »
But the brain didn't create itself. It is a product of stem cells...and DNA.  There has to be a reason for DNA to form such a complex brain.

It's called 'evolution'.
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torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2020, 08:21:34 AM »

But the brain didn't create itself. It is a product of stem cells...and DNA.  There has to be a reason for DNA to form such a complex brain.

You're wandering off topic I see. Brains are a product of evolution which in turn serves thermodynamic law by creating energetic dissipative structures of increasingly high order complexity thus increasing entropy over time.

Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2020, 08:29:04 AM »
You're wandering off topic I see. Brains are a product of evolution which in turn serves thermodynamic law by creating energetic dissipative structures of increasingly high order complexity thus increasing entropy over time.


It all comes back to 'intent'. Why??  Life, evolution, complexity....are all not chance occurrences.  Couple it with the idea of Consciousness (Unconscious mind)  ...and we have a clear case of directed development.....from within. 

Gordon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #129 on: May 28, 2020, 08:33:18 AM »

It all comes back to 'intent'. Why??  Life, evolution, complexity....are all not chance occurrences.  Couple it with the idea of Consciousness (Unconscious mind)  ...and we have a clear case of directed development.....from within.

Why do you think a purposive 'why' is a valid question in this context?

Nearly Sane

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #130 on: May 28, 2020, 08:43:08 AM »

It all comes back to 'intent'. Why??  Life, evolution, complexity....are all not chance occurrences.  Couple it with the idea of Consciousness (Unconscious mind)  ...and we have a clear case of directed development.....from within.
You are assuming a purpose. It's a massive piece of begging the question.

torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #131 on: May 28, 2020, 09:09:37 AM »

It all comes back to 'intent'. Why??  Life, evolution, complexity....are all not chance occurrences.  Couple it with the idea of Consciousness (Unconscious mind)  ...and we have a clear case of directed development.....from within.

Circular reasoning.  'Intent' is a phenomenon of a brain.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #132 on: May 28, 2020, 09:12:22 AM »
Pain in a phantom limb is real pain in something that does not exist, this can only happen because the mind's mapping of physical body to internal 'self' is not always perfect, and that ongoing process of internal modelling maintains the illusion of self. Given you see the self as an emergent property of a body, that locates your position on this much closer to my position than to say Alan Burns. I see it as an emergent phenomenon which has the illusory quality that it feels like a thing when it is in fact a process, and the fact that most people who have ever lived think about themselves as two distinct things, person and body, is evidence of the power of the illusion.
Real pain in something that does not exist. Yes, that is good.
I agree also that we may be edging closer to two cigarette paper difference between our views.
It’s just this point about illusions and if you still hold to that you know what I am going to say next.

I think you have no real option other to admit that what is illuded is not the various brain functions which individually cannot have illusions or the self being illuded into thinking it is a self, that has always been the stupidity of illusion of self thinking, but rather a philosophy. But which one I don’t rightly know or whether it’s mine.

The trouble is though if this is the case where it is a conceptual framework that is being illuded, reification is going on. To disprove a real self in order to fit in with materialism something more arguably illusiory and non material is being considered as real.

OR you are now able to tell us what it is which is having the illusion of self.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 09:41:41 AM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #133 on: May 28, 2020, 12:52:41 PM »
Real pain in something that does not exist. Yes, that is good.
I agree also that we may be edging closer to two cigarette paper difference between our views.
It’s just this point about illusions and if you still hold to that you know what I am going to say next.

I think you have no real option other to admit that what is illuded is not the various brain functions which individually cannot have illusions or the self being illuded into thinking it is a self, that has always been the stupidity of illusion of self thinking, but rather a philosophy. But which one I don’t rightly know or whether it’s mine.

The trouble is though if this is the case where it is a conceptual framework that is being illuded, reification is going on. To disprove a real self in order to fit in with materialism something more arguably illusiory and non material is being considered as real.

OR you are now able to tell us what it is which is having the illusion of self.

The difficulty in describing the illusion of self owes to the fact that the concept is essentially, apparently, self-refuting, if you can forgive the pun.  To experience an illusion implies an experiencer, ie a 'self'.   This is why I prefer to say the self has an illusory quality.  This i think is slightly more accurate as it recognises the self is a real thing (as a rock or play by Shakespeare is a real thing), but its nature is not how it seems (to itself) Hmmm.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #134 on: May 28, 2020, 01:12:37 PM »
The difficulty in describing the illusion of self owes to the fact that the concept is essentially, apparently, self-refuting, if you can forgive the pun.  To experience an illusion implies an experiencer, ie a 'self'.   This is why I prefer to say the self has an illusory quality. 
But isn't that more a disorder often related to anxiety and when you are stressed?
I can see how it could be described informally as illusiory within a group of materialists, reductionists or eliminitaves


Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #135 on: May 28, 2020, 02:45:15 PM »
You are assuming a purpose. It's a massive piece of begging the question.


Yes... and why not?  Why should you assume that there is no purpose? 

Its all about which assumption we begin with.   

If survival, reproduction and parental instincts are built into DNA ....there is a clear purpose.  Survival itself is a purpose....

Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #136 on: May 28, 2020, 02:46:44 PM »
Circular reasoning.  'Intent' is a phenomenon of a brain.


Why is intent a phenomenon of brain?  'Survival' is a universal instinct present even in the simplest organisms. That is intent.

Stranger

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #137 on: May 28, 2020, 02:58:00 PM »
Why is intent a phenomenon of brain?

Because intention implies a purpose or plan.

'Survival' is a universal instinct present even in the simplest organisms. That is intent.

Nonsense. It's questionable whether you can call it "instinct" the simplest organisms but that organisms have characteristics that make them good a survival is explained perfectly by evolution. No intent needed.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #138 on: May 28, 2020, 03:13:15 PM »

Yes... and why not?  Why should you assume that there is no purpose? 

Its all about which assumption we begin with.   

If survival, reproduction and parental instincts are built into DNA ....there is a clear purpose.  Survival itself is a purpose....
I am not assuming no purpose. You are claiming there is one. You need to show evidence for that and your rambling assertion does nothing to do that. Indeed it illustrates that your thinking is ridiculously basic.

torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #139 on: May 28, 2020, 03:25:18 PM »
But isn't that more a disorder often related to anxiety and when you are stressed?
I can see how it could be described informally as illusiory within a group of materialists, reductionists or eliminitaves

Many aspects of perception, for instance, are illusory, eg optical illusions. Such things don't imply a disorder or some impairment, but rather they provide insight into how the mind actually works, which is often not how we would imagine it to work.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #140 on: May 28, 2020, 06:14:49 PM »
Many aspects of perception, for instance, are illusory, eg optical illusions. Such things don't imply a disorder or some impairment, but rather they provide insight into how the mind actually works, which is often not how we would imagine it to work.
Some, I think might see the mind as existing purely for the purpose of revealing how it works.


torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2020, 06:53:51 AM »

Why is intent a phenomenon of brain?  'Survival' is a universal instinct present even in the simplest organisms. That is intent.

We observe intentionality in enbrained creatures.  How does such a phenomenon arise ?  The claim that intentionality exists because it was intended is just self referential, it offers no route to real enlightenment.  Better to try to understand things from first principles without resorting to circular reasoning which gets you nowhere.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 06:56:05 AM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2020, 07:13:31 AM »
We observe intentionality in enbrained creatures.  How does such a phenomenon arise ?  The claim that intentionality exists because it was intended is just self referential, it offers no route to real enlightenment.  Better to try to understand things from first principles without resorting to circular reasoning which gets you nowhere.


All intent is driven by basic needs. Survival, reproduction and parental.  Higher level needs are derived from these three.

These three needs are again driven by basic instincts that can be traced as far back as DNA itself.  Nothing to do with brains.

The point is...why does DNA replicate? Why does life evolve? Why does complexity arise?

Science has no answers ...and to avoid extra-physical explanations, scientists dismiss such questions as irrelevant!  It may take another generation, but this reluctance to move away from physicalism/materialism has to go.  We have to move to higher levels of explanation. It will happen.....
 

Stranger

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #143 on: May 29, 2020, 07:48:48 AM »
The point is...why does DNA replicate?

Chemistry.

Why does life evolve?

Because it consists of replicators with variation and inheritance within an environment with limited resources, and it is therefore subject to natural selection.

Why does complexity arise?

Because of variation and selection.

Science has no answers ...

False.

...and to avoid extra-physical explanations, scientists dismiss such questions as irrelevant!

False.

It may take another generation, but this reluctance to move away from physicalism/materialism has to go.  We have to move to higher levels of explanation. It will happen.....

It can only happen if there is some actual evidence. The science isn't going to change just because you really, really want it to.
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torridon

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #144 on: May 29, 2020, 07:49:49 AM »

All intent is driven by basic needs. Survival, reproduction and parental.  Higher level needs are derived from these three.

These three needs are again driven by basic instincts that can be traced as far back as DNA itself.  Nothing to do with brains.

The point is...why does DNA replicate? Why does life evolve? Why does complexity arise?

Science has no answers ...and to avoid extra-physical explanations, scientists dismiss such questions as irrelevant!  It may take another generation, but this reluctance to move away from physicalism/materialism has to go.  We have to move to higher levels of explanation. It will happen.....
 

There are provisional ideas in science, I already posted up one in #127, it is thermodynamics that mandates the drive to greater complexity - structures of high order complexity are better are better at dissipating energy than simple ones. Clearly ants (less complex) have not built high energy civilisations like humans (more complex).  A universe in which your coffee cools down to the ambient room temperature is also a universe which will produce intentionality.

Sriram

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Re: We need to talk about the meaning of existence
« Reply #145 on: May 29, 2020, 11:22:03 AM »


Its like saying...'I know how the computer works...but I don't know what its for'.