Author Topic: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath  (Read 17065 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2020, 01:45:57 PM »
I support the BLM protests in UK but I didn't attend any. As many people have said online, there are causes that people believe are worth risking lives for so I can see why some people might think these protests are necessary even during a pandemic. I also read that many of the protesters were wearing masks.

It is a shame about the minority that start violence on both sides - police and protesters - but I don't think the violence detracts from the Black Lives Matter too message. I read that a WPC fell from her horse after crashing into a traffic light while charging protesters. There seems to be some suggestions that someone threw something at the horse to spook it but have not seen any evidence to confirm that this happened.

Can't say I care that much about statues being torn down - I used to think it was silly to remove the history - but have changed my mind on that after seeing the level of hurt felt by people who are constantly being reminded about these historic injustices by seeing these statues. Not sure where to draw the line though. In Churchill's case - maybe a sign next to the statue to point out his racist views while also acknowledging his powerful and successful leadership of Britain to help defeat the Nazis, which benefited everyone.

Not really sure how to reverse so many years of racial inequality in some communities that has led to these situations so am expecting this to be an ongoing battle for black lives to matter too. I'm privileged as my family and community prioritised education so my parents were professionals and we did not go on holiday for most of my childhood to afford good schools. At the same time lack of parental supervision while my parents were working (my dad was abroad a lot) led to me engaging in some risk-taking behaviour. So not sure what the answer is.
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SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2020, 04:35:12 PM »
I support the BLM protests in UK but I didn't attend any. As many people have said online, there are causes that people believe are worth risking lives for so I can see why some people might think these protests are necessary even during a pandemic. I also read that many of the protesters were wearing masks.

It is a shame about the minority that start violence on both sides - police and protesters - but I don't think the violence detracts from the Black Lives Matter too message. I read that a WPC fell from her horse after crashing into a traffic light while charging protesters. There seems to be some suggestions that someone threw something at the horse to spook it but have not seen any evidence to confirm that this happened.

Can't say I care that much about statues being torn down - I used to think it was silly to remove the history - but have changed my mind on that after seeing the level of hurt felt by people who are constantly being reminded about these historic injustices by seeing these statues. Not sure where to draw the line though. In Churchill's case - maybe a sign next to the statue to point out his racist views while also acknowledging his powerful and successful leadership of Britain to help defeat the Nazis, which benefited everyone.

Not really sure how to reverse so many years of racial inequality in some communities that has led to these situations so am expecting this to be an ongoing battle for black lives to matter too. I'm privileged as my family and community prioritised education so my parents were professionals and we did not go on holiday for most of my childhood to afford good schools. At the same time lack of parental supervision while my parents were working (my dad was abroad a lot) led to me engaging in some risk-taking behaviour. So not sure what the answer is.
There isn't any actual answer of course - as always there will be a mixture of answers, some taking us forward and we can only hope they will be in the majority.
One of the callers last night (can't remember if it was to Stephen Nolan or Jim davis) was an articulate positive young black man, on his way home from work. His main point too was about education. Instead of holding a grudge against society, he saw, valued and used the education he had, moved to college  in a different part of London, came into contact with a wider circle of people and knew that that was the way ahead for him. He was asked what his job was and he said that he had his own Company, and oh, that he worked on the Underground. He lives in Aylesbury so although that is some way out of London, the lines reach out that far if I remember correctly. He now has a good home and three small children, so I presume a wife too! He said his father was 'a preacher man' so that would have meant he had a family who already valued education.
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Udayana

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2020, 06:55:12 PM »
Education is definitely key, however to properly take advantage of opportunities available you must already feel a level of equality and that progress is possible. If you feel that the dice are loaded against you - why play?

We need a fairer and more equal society all round - meaning major changes to the way the economy works, how power is shared, the relationship between society and the individual.

Educational content also needs to be updated - especially wrt. history and geography. Nationalism and other tribal instincts need to be ditched.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2020, 07:15:12 PM »
Education is definitely key, however to properly take advantage of opportunities available you must already feel a level of equality and that progress is possible. If you feel that the dice are loaded against you - why play?

We need a fairer and more equal society all round - meaning major changes to the way the economy works, how power is shared, the relationship between society and the individual.

Educational content also needs to be updated - especially wrt. history and geography. Nationalism and other tribal instincts need to be ditched.
Sorry, the idea of ditching nationalism and other tribalism is both Utopian and simplistic. It's similar to the idea of just let"s get rid of religion and this will solve things. Lots of tribalism is what leads us to support people, to save people, and to work together. We need to try and understand how best we work together but that is about understand our limitations not ignoring them

Alan Burns

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2020, 07:25:16 PM »
Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2020, 07:30:59 PM »
Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
  they were not being killed by police.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2020, 07:43:00 PM »
Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
I think that having emphasised his Christian colleagues, for a balanced report you might want to mention that the opposition also contained Christians.
Unless of course you want to rewrite history?
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Udayana

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2020, 09:14:51 PM »
Sorry, the idea of ditching nationalism and other tribalism is both Utopian and simplistic. It's similar to the idea of just let"s get rid of religion and this will solve things. Lots of tribalism is what leads us to support people, to save people, and to work together. We need to try and understand how best we work together but that is about understand our limitations not ignoring them

Er... yeah, but we could at least try and get history etc curricula to cover subjects better and more fairly. 

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2020, 11:37:12 PM »
This link is to a short - about 8 posts - in a topicc on the GH forum. I learnt quite a few things about George Floyd and asphyxiation so thought it might be of interest here.
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Udayana

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2020, 08:28:58 AM »
This, essentially a political piece by a group of doctors, is good on how autopsies are (or can be) misused:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2020, 08:47:18 AM »
This, essentially a political piece by a group of doctors, is good on how autopsies are (or can be) misused:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/
Interesting. I have put that link onto the GH topic.
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Roses

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2020, 09:19:00 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52967675

The racing driving, Lewis Hamilton, has asked that all racist symbols around the world should be removed.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2020, 09:23:49 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52967675

The racing driving, Lewis Hamilton, has asked that all racist symbols around the world should be removed.
We just need to define racist symbols

Aruntraveller

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2020, 09:30:00 AM »
We just need to define racist symbols

Difficult job. Queen Victoria's statues.

Anybody care to offer a opinion? I don't!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2020, 09:40:35 AM »
Difficult job. Queen Victoria's statues.

Anybody care to offer a opinion? I don't!
Yep, it's not a simple thing - I've posted, see link below, about the issue of Glasgow street names.  I live in what's known as the Merchant City, which is called after those who profited from the goods such as tobacco, cotton, and sugar that were produced with slave labour. A short walk from me is a statue to David Livingstone, which is quite an uncomfortable sight with its patronising portrayal of African people - should it go? Does my street need to be renamed?

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=17506.0

Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2020, 10:21:09 AM »
I saw a couple of posts from Mike Russell, the MSP for the area yesterday, that the subject of the Jim Crow Rock at Dunoon is back on the agenda


https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/anti-racism-campaigner-hits-out-at-controversial-jim-crow-rock-in-dunoon/

« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 10:25:45 AM by Nearly Sane »

SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2020, 10:29:49 AM »
Yep, it's not a simple thing - I've posted, see link below, about the issue of Glasgow street names.  I live in what's known as the Merchant City, which is called after those who profited from the goods such as tobacco, cotton, and sugar that were produced with slave labour. A short walk from me is a statue to David Livingstone, which is quite an uncomfortable sight with its patronising portrayal of African people - should it go? Does my street need to be renamed?

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=17506.0
On the whole, I think street names should remain as they are. It is education that is necessary and changing names doesn't alter history. I often think that all streets named Saint something should be changed, but that wouldn't help change history either!!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2020, 10:48:53 AM »
On the whole, I think street names should remain as they are. It is education that is necessary and changing names doesn't alter history. I often think that all streets named Saint something should be changed, but that wouldn't help change history either!!
IS there anyone arguing that the changing the names would alter history? Surely it's rather that the statues and street names are celebrations of slavery?

SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2020, 11:17:36 AM »
IS there anyone arguing that the changing the names would alter history? Surely it's rather that the statues and street names are celebrations of slavery?
To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2020, 11:36:45 AM »
To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?
Does that really matter? A statue is a celebration of someone's life. Given the numbers who died under Colston's watch, is it not reasonable to see that as a celebration of the whole of his life. The statue to Jimmy Savile wasn't erected to celebrate his sexual assaults but I don't see that means it should have remained.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2020, 11:38:05 AM »
To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?

It was erected for his "good works" in Bristol.

What isn't easy to quantify is how many of those good works were funded by his involvement with the slave trade. It could be argued he funded it through his other commercial ventures, but even if this were the case I can see that it is offensive to have a statue to a man who took part in the deaths of so many people who were trafficked into slavery.

A solution suggested in various quarters is to have the statues removed to museums where they can be shown within a proper historical context so that the whole story is told and it is not left as appearing to be somebody who is celebrated.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

SusanDoris

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2020, 12:57:50 PM »
It was erected for his "good works" in Bristol.

What isn't easy to quantify is how many of those good works were funded by his involvement with the slave trade. It could be argued he funded it through his other commercial ventures, but even if this were the case I can see that it is offensive to have a statue to a man who took part in the deaths of so many people who were trafficked into slavery.

A solution suggested in various quarters is to have the statues removed to museums where they can be shown within a proper historical context so that the whole story is told and it is not left as appearing to be somebody who is celebrated.
Agree. The best thing to have done was to have put it in the museum long ago, but that wasn't done and that's a pity, but can't be undone.

My reader (who has not been able to  come here for these last months and oh, how I do miss that weekly joy)  has still a third of the book called 'Gentry' to go through. Some of the recent parts have been about the lives of some of the slave trader families. The author, Adam Nicolson, has done much research into the circumstances and we have both learnt a lot.

Should all those who have benefited from the philanthropy of people such as Edward Colston now reject it and don sack cloth and ashes? Most decidedly not of course.
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Roses

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2020, 01:45:34 PM »
Anyone who was actively involved in slavery, an atrocious blot on history, should have their memorials removed, even if they did things, which were also regarded as good.
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Udayana

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Re: The death of George Floyd, and aftermath
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2020, 06:31:07 PM »
In some ways the fuss over names, statues, blackface and so on seems too much of a diversion - getting stuck on a symbolic level.

It would be better if people concentrated on actual day to day discrimination, injustice or just racist assaults. The other thing is that slavery still exists, including in the UK and Europe. In fact reports on modern slavery suggest there is more slavery now than in the 17th or 18th centuries.

Use the symbols to make a point - but fix the actual problems?   
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now