The death of George Floyd, and aftermath

[Udayana]

Completely agree - I've seen the argument that in removing/moving the statues that we are retrofitting our morals on people in the past - the problem to me is that in simply keeping the statues we are then imposing the morals of the past upon people today. I get the idea of using the statues to educate but Colston is now a lot better known, and many more people are educated about him than when the statue was standing.

Indeed. But getting rid of the statues, whilst removing a daily affront, does not end racism.

It would be better to have them covered up, educate people on the ways the actions of those empire builders and pirates caused the injustices of today. Then fix those injustices - once eliminated, by all means destroy the statues if you like.
 

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed. But getting rid of the statues, whilst removing a daily affront, does not end racism.

It would be better to have them covered up, educate people on the ways the actions of those empire builders and pirates caused the injustices of today. Then fix those injustices - once eliminated, by all means destroy the statues if you like.

I think the idea that removing the statues or street names will end racism is a straw man. I don't see this as an either or. Nor did I make any blanket suggestion of destroying all the statues.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Some interesting debates in Benin about its role in the Atlantic slave trade and how to remember those involved:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html

https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-08-20/willful-amnesia-how-africans-forgot-and-remembered-their-role-slave-trade

And a slightly more cynical view that apologies could have an element of political self-interest:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/how-to-apologize-for-slavery/375650/

[Nearly Sane]

Some interesting debates in Benin about its role in the Atlantic slave trade and how to remember those involved:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html

https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-08-20/willful-amnesia-how-africans-forgot-and-remembered-their-role-slave-trade

And a slightly more cynical view that apologies could have an element of political self-interest:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/how-to-apologize-for-slavery/375650/

Some good stuff in the articles, I have to admit to struggling with the idea of an apology - I remember when Tony Blair apologised for the Irish Famine, and thinking what was the point of that, it's just words. And I think that it could be an easy cover to ignore the ongoing systemic problems.

[SusanDoris]

The US needs to get to grips with its racist past and present.

And do you really think that tearing down Washington statues is going to do the trick? It wil of course do nothing of the kind.

[jeremyp]

  You are  just being illogical.

No I'm not. I'm the one being logical.

You weigh up possibilities all the time and that informs what you and what society thinks should happen. Your example actually shows you do that.

But I discount most of them as absurd and not worth worrying about. 

And what you said was
'So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?'

 Why would I be 'explaining' what was 'so bad' ?

Because I asked you to. If you think there's nothing bad per se, that's fine, but some people seem to have labelled the mere act of a white person pretending to be a black person (i.e. acting a part) as a heinous crime. I'd like to know why.

[jeremyp]

Oh come on that is an excuse for racism!

How so? Is it sexism for Brendan O'Carroll to play the part of a woman in Mrs Brown's Boys?

Would it be racism for Idris Elba to be cat as James Bond? I it alienist for any human to play the part of The Doctor?

[Nearly Sane]

No I'm not. I'm the one being logical.
But I discount most of them as absurd and not worth worrying about. 
Because I asked you to. If you think there's nothing bad per se, that's fine, but some people seem to have labelled the mere act of a white person pretending to be a black person (i.e. acting a part) as a heinous crime. I'd like to know why.

So you consider possible outcomes before acting - which is what my position said people and society should do. Possible is not a weasel word - it describes exactly what you say you do. To take your driving example, if you thought your eyesight was a bit dodgy you wouldn't drive 30 miles to test it because the possible outcome would be more likely. We assign likelihoods to outcomes and we decide on that basis.

Ask the people who think it is a heinous crime. I think there's a discussion to be had about black roles and blackface but I'm not getting into a defence of something I haven't said.

[jeremyp]

I get the idea of using the statues to educate but Colston is now a lot better known, and many more people are educated about him than when the statue was standing.

I don't think many people are more educated about him than were before. Everybody now knows he was a slave trader but that's just one fact. That's not really education. I doubt if many people could actually tell you what he actually did in the slave trade or even where he lived. They certainly couldn't tell you how much of his fortune came from the slave trade because nobody knows.

If it were up to me, I'd have the statue recovered from the floating harbour and put on display in a museum as it is without cleaning off the graffiti or repairing it. The plaque next to it would describe exactly who he was and why the statue was removed and dumped in the water.

[jeremyp]

Ask the people who think it is a heinous crime. I think there's a discussion to be had about black roles and blackface but I'm not getting into a defence of something I haven't said.

I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.

[wigginhall]

And do you really think that tearing down Washington statues is going to do the trick? It wil of course do nothing of the kind.

Not sure.  I have certainly learned more about Colston, Columbus, and Rhodes, than I did before.  I think statues and monuments make history opaque. The black historian (Olusoga), said that pulling down Colston is itself a historical act, a bit like the Boston Tea Party.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think many people are more educated about him than were before. Everybody now knows he was a slave trader but that's just one fact. That's not really education. I doubt if many people could actually tell you what he actually did in the slave trade or even where he lived. They certainly couldn't tell you how much of his fortune came from the slave trade because nobody knows.

If it were up to me, I'd have the statue recovered from the floating harbour and put on display in a museum as it is without cleaning off the graffiti or repairing it. The plaque next to it would describe exactly who he was and why the statue was removed and dumped in the water.

Knowing one thing is more than knowing nothing. And the point is that the discussion itself is part of the education - the idea that the statue was doing much education is simply wrong,

I like your suggested display of the statue

[Nearly Sane]

I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.

Yes, you did again to quote you

'So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?'

[Udayana]

Not sure.  I have certainly learned more about Colston, Columbus, and Rhodes, than I did before.  I think statues and monuments make history opaque. The black historian (Olusoga), said that pulling down Colston is itself a historical act, a bit like the Boston Tea Party.

Of-course. If the statue is ever displayed again, maybe it can be accompanied by a video of it being pulled down, and explanatory discussion.

[wigginhall]

Of-course. If the statue is ever displayed again, maybe it can be accompanied by a video of it being pulled down, and explanatory discussion.

Yes, I thought Olusoga's point was sharp.  I think film of Colston's demise is already being inserted into seminars on postcolonialism.  The slogan in Oxford the other day was "decolonize!", and it's odd to think that England hasn't really done that.

[Udayana]

I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.

Don't forget brownface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_brownface

I don't think there is anything heinous about anyone acting a part but quite often these roles are intended to alienate or humiliate a minority: eg re. B&W Minstrels: "to reinforce stereotypes, portraying brown people as lazy, stubborn, and unable to assimilate into American life" - so people are bound to be offended.

Also consider Hank Azaria on Apu:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/hank-azaria-based-apu-racist-peter-sellers-character-1202213323/

In my youth I quite enjoyed Peter Sellers in The Millionairess and The Party, however, looking back, there were plenty of Indian actors that could have played those roles much better.
 
 

[Nearly Sane]

Don't forget brownface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_brownface

I don't think there is anything heinous about anyone acting a part but quite often these roles are intended to alienate or humiliate a minority: eg re. B&W Minstrels: "to reinforce stereotypes, portraying brown people as lazy, stubborn, and unable to assimilate into American life" - so people are bound to be offended.

Also consider Hank Azaria on Apu:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/hank-azaria-based-apu-racist-peter-sellers-character-1202213323/

In my youth I quite enjoyed Peter Sellers in The Millionairess and The Party, however, looking back, there were plenty of Indian actors that could have played those roles much better.
 
 

And given the comparative paucity of roles for BAME actors, it also reduced the opportunity for them

[wigginhall]

Yes, my memory of Olivier as Othello, was that he caricatured black people, and being Olivier, did it with great gusto.  Rather repellent today.

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52990464

Liverpool University is to remain a building named after William Gladstone due to his involvement with the slave trade.

[Nearly Sane]

There's going to be a lot of films needing discussion, not just Gone With The Wind.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714

[Nearly Sane]

This seems reasonably balanced.


https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/10/rewriting-history-historians-statue-past?__twitter_impression=true

[Sebastian Toe]

There's going to be a lot of films needing discussion, not just Gone With The Wind.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714

The Jolson Story springs to mind.

[Nearly Sane]

Good piece from Craig Murray


https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/06/ultimately-all-monuments-are-ozymandias/?fbclid=IwAR1950l5yo0OlpEO1z-IcwAz95UoL3nyBDys91qflp4Jv6vjeg0_7ZjZR1E

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Retired US General and former CIA director, David Petreaus, arguing for renaming the military bases he trained at if they are named after Confederate leaders:

Yesterday afternoon, an Army spokesperson said that Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy is now “open to a bipartisan discussion” on renaming the bases. That’s the right call. Once the names of these bases are stripped of the obscuring power of tradition and folklore, renaming the installations becomes an easy, even obvious, decision.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Some retired senior US Army officers calling for renaming of US Army bases:

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/06/dear-mr-secretary-you-can-rename-army-bases-right-now/166025/