The death of George Floyd, and aftermath

[Nearly Sane]

Welcome back, Prof W

[Aruntraveller]

It is worth pointing out that you are at least three times more likely to be killed by the police if you are black as opposed to white:

"A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men."

This would suggest that something other than "ordinary police brutality" comes into play as far as black people are concerned.

[Nearly Sane]

Been couple of helicopters and lots of police around centre of Glasgow today with the statue protectors out to save Robert Peel. He got daubed last week with ACAB (All Cops are Bastards) and a hammer and sickle.

It's all madness.

[Nearly Sane]

Now this is a statue protest

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219?fbclid=IwAR3xi1h-TLlI72o-xAZHcUuswu89uiEZLHmlisbhlC-aN8UZsUauOm6MQKU

[jeremyp]

If humans are made in the image of god, is it black and white?

Black.

All humans were black until they migrated away from Africa.

[jeremyp]

It is worth pointing out that you are at least three times more likely to be killed by the police if you are black as opposed to white:

"A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men."

This would suggest that something other than "ordinary police brutality" comes into play as far as black people are concerned.

Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police in the USA than white people. Once a (male) person gets into a confrontation with the police they have about the same chance of dying whatever their skin colour.

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2020/06/14/mcwhorter-on-police-violence/

So there are two issues here. One is the high probability of death at the hands of US police in an encounter which I think is mostly due to things like poor police training, poor selection and the high rate of gun ownership in the US.

The other is the problem of why black people are more likely to get involved with the police at all. Poverty is part of that, but also systemic racism e.g. black people are more likely to get pulled over etc. The answer to this problem isn't as easy as the other.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Now this is a statue protest

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219?fbclid=IwAR3xi1h-TLlI72o-xAZHcUuswu89uiEZLHmlisbhlC-aN8UZsUauOm6MQKU

I bet he wouldn't do that on a statue of the Kaiser.

[Aruntraveller]

Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police in the USA than white people. Once a (male) person gets into a confrontation with the police they have about the same chance of dying whatever their skin colour.

No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.

[Nearly Sane]

No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.

Jeremyp was pointing out though that there are far more encounters with the police for black people per hundred thousand.

[Udayana]

I share Eric Weinstein's view.
There are any number of brutal and lethal killings by police on YouTube. Most people killed by police in America are white, some by black policemen. This didn't suddenly just start happening,  it happened under a black president too. The unique thing about this of course is that it was broadcast live. One of the cops was Asian and an another is Black. If that has been a black knee on his neck would the media have picked it up? There is an older video of bodycam footage of an armed officer that had been called out to some drunk white college kid who had allegedly been drunkenly waving a gun out of his window. He orders him out of the flat and onto the floor prostrate and getting confused by the cop's screamed orfers. He starts crying and begs for his life but ends up dead. The cop got off because he feared for his life.This isn't whataboutism but I'm curious,  if that had been a black kid would it instantly change from the callous slaying of a terrified unarmed man to a race murder?
This was a very timely tragedy
https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I

https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I

Good to hear from you.

In any long term situation where armed police or military are policing civilians there will be many otherwise avoidable killings. There are varied reasons for this but statistics is not really of much use as the actions in each case must be judged on the facts of that case.

And, overall the impact on communities being, or perceived as being, repressed and the subsequent tensions and conflicts will not be resolved by stats either. Every death is felt to be too many, it's not a matter of arithmetic.

 

[Udayana]

Black.

All humans were black until they migrated away from Africa.

Sort of depends what you mean by black?

[Udayana]

No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.

If you read carefully you can see that the arguments are not in conflict.

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929

This is shocking and then some, the CofE should be ashamed of itself.

[jeremyp]

No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.

I know.

Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police per one hundred thousand.

Edit: Ninja'd by at least two people.

What I was trying to say is that given you are in an encounter with the police in the USA, your chances of surviving that encounter aren't that different whether you are black or white. But, your chance of being killed is significantly higher in the USA than in pretty much any other developed country.

Unfortunately, black people are more likely to be involved in an encounter with the police. Part of this is poverty: crime is correlated with poverty (both victims and perpetrators, I believe). Part of it is racism. A black person driving a car is much more likely to get pulled over than a white person; a black person loitering is more likely to have the cops called on him than a white person and so on.

If you want to stop the violence by police officers on black people, there are two problems to solve:

1. US police brutality in general

2. Racism in the police and elsewhere.

Solving the second problem alone won't stop the police killings. To be fair, I think the protestors recognise this, hence the calls for defunding etc.

[jeremyp]

Sort of depends what you mean by black?

Of a similar appearance to modern native sub Saharan Africans.

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929

This is shocking and then some, the CofE should be ashamed of itself.

You are easily shocked.

I'm more disappointed. I'm disappointed that whoever wrote the letter on behalf of the diocese thought that it was acceptable to write such a thing. Apart from being racist and illegal, it also slanders the parishioners referred to: who says they wouldn't accept a black curate?

[Robbie]

Awful. Also I don't believe he would have felt uncomfortable nor his parishioners feel uncomfortable with him. Shades of the Windrush here when early west Indian immigrants were made unwelcome in mainstream churches, even by clergy.

[Udayana]

Of a similar appearance to modern native sub Saharan Africans.

.. but they don't all look the same! - not that I understand exactly  what "modern native" supposed to mean either...


 

[Nearly Sane]

Another afternoon and evening of people saving statues near me. Apparently from the 'fenian bastards'

[Nearly Sane]

Dominic Raab and Game of Thrones


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244

[Nearly Sane]

And here we are in wonderful Scotland


https://news.stv.tv/east-central/1432466-neil-lennon-i-m-abused-because-i-m-catholic-and-irish?top

[Harrowby Hall]

Dominic Raab and Game of Thrones


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244

Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.

Reducing one's height is a sign of subservience. It is an acknowledgement of inferior status. Men kneel to receive a knighthood. People bow when presented to individuals of higher status than themselves. In churches, congregations kneel before God and Catholics genuflect before taking a pew (or they used to). We talk about High Table at formal meals. Conductors bow to their audience - a relic of the time when musicians were servants in the houses of nobility.

Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?

My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.

They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?

[Nearly Sane]

Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.

Reducing one's height is a sign of subservience. It is an acknowledgement of inferior status. Men kneel to receive a knighthood. People bow when presented to individuals of higher status than themselves. In churches, congregations kneel before God and Catholics genuflect before taking a pew (or they used to). We talk about High Table at formal meals. Conductors bow to their audience - a relic of the time when musicians were servants in the houses of nobility.

Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?

My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.

They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?

And it's got bugger all to do with Game of Thrones  Raab both showed his ignorance of that, and the significance of it in Game of Thrones.

[Udayana]

Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.
...

Essentially Raab is getting flak for being ignorant and insensitive.

...
Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?

My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.

They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?

The obvious alternative was the Black Power salute of the '60s - and imagine the response to that - given the continuing violence and criticism. It is not an act of rebellion but a, respectful, request for reason, peace and equality.

[Nearly Sane]

Statues bad

https://eu.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/24/madison-protests-what-know-forward-statue-toppled/3249239001/