Author Topic: Does antitheism exist?  (Read 73387 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Does antitheism exist?
« on: May 31, 2020, 12:21:23 PM »
Do antitheists exist and is there any relationship between them and the similar sounding “atheists”?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2020, 12:29:46 PM »
Yes, they exist. The vast majority of them will also be atheist. A minority of atheists will be antitheist.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2020, 12:33:54 PM »
Yes, they exist. The vast majority of them will also be atheist. A minority of atheists will be antitheist.
What leads you to a conclusion that is different to my own?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2020, 12:36:09 PM »
What leads you to a conclusion that is different to my own?
You haven't put up any conclusion here. You asked a question. I answered it. I have no idea what your 'conclusion' is.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 12:45:35 PM »
You haven't put up any conclusion here. You asked a question. I answered it. I have no idea what your 'conclusion' is.
You put your conclusion. And I signalled that mine is different. However my own conclusion is that most atheists have an antitheist side.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 12:58:10 PM »
You put your conclusion. And I signalled that mine is different. However my own conclusion is that most atheists have an antitheist side.

No I think you'll find they have got a right side and a left side.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 01:04:06 PM »
No I think you'll find they have got a right side and a left side.
Highly dubious of that. I think it’s more one or the other.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2020, 01:17:23 PM »
You put your conclusion. And I signalled that mine is different. However my own conclusion is that most atheists have an antitheist side.
  So first of all can I check if you agree there are some antitheists who are not atheist?

As to most atheists being antitheist. I think you are suffering from availability bias. Those atheists who are not antitheist will be much more likely to not be heard, and there are many more of them then those who might speak out.

But,we may of course be posting at cross purposes here, since we haven't defined the term antitheist. Since it is your question, what is the definition you wish to use?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2020, 02:04:04 PM »
  So first of all can I check if you agree there are some antitheists who are not atheist?

As to most atheists being antitheist. I think you are suffering from availability bias. Those atheists who are not antitheist will be much more likely to not be heard, and there are many more of them then those who might speak out.

But,we may of course be posting at cross purposes here, since we haven't defined the term antitheist. Since it is your question, what is the definition you wish to use?
Any one who holds the view the view that atheism is more virtuous than theism has found their inner antitheist.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2020, 02:42:26 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Do antitheists exist and is there any relationship between them and the similar sounding “atheists”?

They’re different categories of belief, despite your endless attempts to use them interchangeably.

An atheist sees no good reason to believe there to be god(s). Atheism says nothing about whether believing in god(s) is a good thing or a bad thing.

An antitheist thinks believing in god(s) does more harm than good, so opposes it. Antitheism says nothing about whether beliefs in god(s) are justifiable.

Thus:

- an atheist can also be an antitheist. That is, he sees no reason to believe in god(s) and thinks the fact that some people do believe in god(s) does more harm than good; and

- an atheist can be a pro-theist. That is, he’s sees no good reason to believe in god(s), but thinks the fact of other people believing in them anyway does more good than harm; and

- an antitheist can be theist. That is, he thinks there are good reasons for believing in gods, but also thinks those beliefs to do more harm than good; and

- an antitheist can also be an atheist. That is, he thinks belief in god(s) does more harm than good, but also that there’s no good reason to believe in them in any case.

That’s why your use of these terms indiscriminately is a category error. Atheism is an epistemological claim about the validity a belief; anti-theism is a functional claim about the effects of a belief.     
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2020, 03:17:02 PM »
Any one who holds the view the view that atheism is more virtuous than theism has found their inner antitheist.
I am not sure what you are using 'virtuous' to say here. I think atheism is the correct position to take based on the lack of evidence or indeed logically coherent and consistent definition of god(s) but I don't attach virtue to it.

Also can I ask again do you agree that there are anitheists who ard also theists? 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2020, 03:30:36 PM »
I am not sure what you are using 'virtuous' to say here. I think atheism is the correct position to take based on the lack of evidence or indeed logically coherent and consistent definition of god(s) but I don't attach virtue to it.

Also can I ask again do you agree that there are anitheists who ard also theists?
However if I'm not mistaken you have considered God and theism as not virtuous. In fact the opposite on occasion. Outlining God"s guilt in certain respects.

You cannot be a theist and an anti theist in my opinion.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2020, 03:50:20 PM »
However if I'm not mistaken you have considered God and theism as not virtuous. In fact the opposite on occasion. Outlining God"s guilt in certain respects.

You cannot be a theist and an anti theist in my opinion.
I don't  believe in gods so in that sense I have no beliefabout their virtues. I don't think theists are not virtuous, I think they are incorrect as there is insufficient reason to believe and that the definition of gods not logically consistent and coherent.

I don't make any point about something that I don't believe in having 'guilt' but rather point out that the conception of god(s) that some people say they believe in and think should be worshipped are what I would see in any context as thugs.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2020, 03:54:44 PM »
However if I'm not mistaken you have considered God and theism as not virtuous. In fact the opposite on occasion. Outlining God"s guilt in certain respects.

You cannot be a theist and an anti theist in my opinion.
As for the ability to be a theist and an antitheist, bhs has already covered the logical reasons for why one can, so I would just like to point out that Owlswing who is a theist also appears tobe antitheist in thinking that beliefs in gods are a bad thing overall. I think theism is simply part of our make up as a species currently, though not as individuals.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2020, 04:14:32 PM »
As for the ability to be a theist and an antitheist, bhs has already covered the logical reasons for why one can.
Alas, he also failed to cover the plain meaning of the term Antitheism in which a theistic antitheist is an obvious contradiction in terms. I'm not saying there cannot be other meanings. I am saying it is linguistic piracy to use the phrase in a new way and discount the plain meaning.
Quote
So I would just like to point out that Owlswing who is a theist also appears to be antitheist in thinking that beliefs in gods are a bad thing overall.
In terms of the plain meaning he is not an antitheist.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2020, 04:32:07 PM »
Vlad,

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However if I'm not mistaken you have considered God and theism as not virtuous. In fact the opposite on occasion. Outlining God"s guilt in certain respects.

You are mistaken. If you don’t think there are good reasons to justify the belief “God” you can’t have views on this god’s virtuousness or otherwise. All you can have is views on the virtuousness of the belief "god", and for that matter on related faith beliefs. I happen to think that the notion of a man/god dying horribly for my supposed “sins” that apparently I’m born into so that, if I genuflect and make the right propitiations to him, I’ll be absolved of my guilt to be morally despicable. That says nothing though about whether I believe a word of that story to be true. 

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You cannot be a theist and an anti theist in my opinion.

Then, as with so much else, your opinion is wrong for the reason I just explained to you –  category error. You could find the arguments for god(s) to be persuasive (ie, you’re a theist), but at the same time think that the consequences of that belief to be awful (ie, you’re an antitheist). Again, you’re confusing epistemological truth with practical effect.   
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 04:34:41 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2020, 04:33:42 PM »
AB,

Quote
Alas, he also failed to cover the plain meaning of the term Antitheism in which a theistic antitheist is an obvious contradiction in terms. I'm not saying there cannot be other meanings. I am saying it is linguistic piracy to use the phrase in a new way and discount the plain meaning.

Wrong again. The "plain meaning" isn't what you think it is for the reason I've just explained. Again.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2020, 04:38:15 PM »
Vlad,

They’re different categories of belief, despite your endless attempts to use them interchangeably.

As long as I've correctly categorised yourself Mr Hillside, that's what matters.
I wonder if I am the only one who has indulged in using them interchangeably. Doesn't Dawkins rank atheists in accordance to how antitheist and intolerant of theism they are? Is this not antitheism of an intellectual and philosophical flavour?

Here for instance is an outfit called atheist conferences announcing the annual Antitheist international.

 https://www.atheist-convention.com/

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An atheist sees no good reason to believe there to be god(s). Atheism says nothing about whether believing in god(s) is a good thing or a bad thing.
But you've used the word Good here suggesting virtue in the atheist position.

Quote
An antitheist thinks believing in god(s) does more harm than good, so opposes it. Antitheism says nothing about whether beliefs in god(s) are justifiable.

At this point I think we are moving away from the plain meaning here. As I said already thinking that theism is virtueless, and consequently the atheist position has the virtue of being better than the theist position is antitheistic.

Also it kind of launders antitheism of it's potential bad aspects by portraying it as solely a position of good motives and methods.


   

Stranger

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2020, 05:03:45 PM »
I wonder if I am the only one who has indulged in using them interchangeably.

I don't think I've ever encountered somebody who seems quite so confused about this simple distinction.

Doesn't Dawkins rank atheists in accordance to how antitheist and intolerant of theism they are?

Not that I'm aware of, but if you have a reference?

Here for instance is an outfit called atheist conferences announcing the annual Antitheist international.

https://www.atheist-convention.com/

And....? Some atheists are anti-theist.

But you've used the word Good here suggesting virtue in the atheist position.

Seriously? The phrase "An atheist sees no good reason to believe there to be god(s)." doesn't even imply that there are no good reasons, it's a description of somebody's perception. That's before you getting all confused about the different senses of the word "good", which obviously doesn't imply moral virtue in this context.

You really are making a fool of yourself over this - it's not a difficult concept.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2020, 06:17:29 PM »
AB,

Wrong again. The "plain meaning" isn't what you think it is for the reason I've just explained. Again.
You chose to highlight Hitchin's use of the word as if that superceded all other meanings.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2020, 07:26:51 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
As long as I've correctly categorised yourself Mr Hillside, that's what matters.

I have no idea how you “categorise” me, and or do I care. What actually matters is the validity of the ideas being expressed, not how you happen to categorise the person who expresses them.

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I wonder if I am the only one who has indulged in using them interchangeably.

Wonder away - it makes no difference to it being a category error.

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Doesn't Dawkins rank atheists in accordance to how antitheist and intolerant of theism they are?

No.

Quote
Is this not antitheism of an intellectual and philosophical flavour?

I have no idea – it’s something you’ve just made up.

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Here for instance is an outfit called atheist conferences announcing the annual Antitheist international.

https://www.atheist-convention.com/

So?

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But you've used the word Good here suggesting virtue in the atheist position.

No, I made it perfectly clear that I was referring only to the belief “god(s)”.

Quote
At this point I think we are moving away from the plain meaning here. As I said already thinking that theism is virtueless, and consequently the atheist position has the virtue of being better than the theist position is antitheistic.

No we’re not. Anything with the prefix “anti” means “against”, “opposed to” etc – no more, no less. Your supposed “plan meaning” is something else you’ve just made up. 

Quote
Also it kind of launders antitheism of it's potential bad aspects by portraying it as solely a position of good motives and methods.

No, it just reflects accurately what the term means and implies. No more, no less.

Quote
You chose to highlight Hitchin's use of the word as if that superceded all other meanings.

First, it’s “Hitchens” and “superseded”.

Second, no I didn’t. I just used the actual “plain meaning” rather than your personal reinvention of the term.

It’s not difficult, even for you. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:00:54 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Owlswing

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2020, 01:15:02 AM »




NEW RULE ONE for the Religion and Ethics forum:-

VLAD IS NEVER, EVER,  WRONG IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM - IT IS ALWAYS EVERYONE ELSE WHO IS WRONG!

If anyone thinks Vlad is wrong it is becaiuse their mental faculties are not well enough developed for them to understand what he is trying to teach us!

All bow to the Almighty God VLAD!


NO BLOODY WAY!!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2020, 08:10:59 AM »
Do antitheists exist and is there any relationship between them and the similar sounding “atheists”?
Do anti-atheists exist and is there any relationship between them and theists?

One for you to consider Vlad.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2020, 08:20:48 AM »
Vlad,

I have no idea how you “categorise” me, and or do I care. What actually matters is the validity of the ideas being expressed, not how you happen to categorise the person who expresses them.

Wonder away - it makes no difference to it being a category error.

No.

I have no idea – it’s something you’ve just made up.

So?

No, I made it perfectly clear that I was referring only to the belief “god(s)”.

No we’re not. Anything with the prefix “anti” means “against”, “opposed to” etc – no more, no less. Your supposed “plan meaning” is something else you’ve just made up. 

No, it just reflects accurately what the term means and implies. No more, no less.

First, it’s “Hitchens” and “superseded”.

Second, no I didn’t. I just used the actual “plain meaning” rather than your personal reinvention of the term.

It’s not difficult, even for you.
As always I refer everyone to Wikipedia according to which the definition you are using is popularised by Hitchen's in the early 2000s other,earlier definitions are available.

Such are the wages of linguistic piracy is that Orwellian doublethink is going on with the proposal of Antitheist theists.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2020, 08:23:52 AM »
As always I refer everyone to Wikipedia ...
When your key point of reference is Wikipedia I think you've already lost any argument.