Does antitheism exist?

[ProfessorDavey]

temporal groups

First you were talking about world-view groups, now you are on about temporal groups - what on earth is a temporal group.

Give us some examples please - you've completely failed to provide examples of these world-view groups.

And you have also failed to address the question of who makes the decision as to which world-view groups or temporal groups get automatic places, and why.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What on earth do you mean good Lords temporal the only difference between the Lords temporal and Lords spiritual is their method of appointment - once appointed their role, rights to vote, remit etc etc etc is identical.
Why 28?

And no I'm not talking about expelling Lords with a religion - there are countless religious people who I'm sure are, or would make, excellent members of the HoLs. Likewise there are countless non religious people. I think the HoL should be broadly representative of the population in a range of respects, including but not limited to religion - but I certainly don't think you can put hard quotas or targets on that. I think the HoLs should try to actively address clear under-representation amongst certain groups (I suspect be most pressing being women and BAME peers) - I don't think there is any evidence that religious people are under-represented in the HoL, and even less so christians.

What I don't agree with is automatic appointment of any peer on the basis of their appointment to a different role in a different organisation. That is not right and is similar too the challenge of hereditary peers, who similarly were automatically appointed (usually when their Dad died). That issue is further compounded by the fact that we have 26 from the very same external organisation. So just as the hereditary peers had to go (although those peers were put themselves forward to be nominated and appointed via the normal appointment process) I think the bishops must go too, as automatic appointments, but again they should be able to be nominate and appointed via the same process as anyone else if appropriate.

I am against all the Lords spiritual coming from the same pot.

But I am for a system where there are Lords temporal and Lords spiritual.
How one gets into the HoL, there should be a range of ways with no one controlling interest.

[Sebastian Toe]

How one gets into the HoL, there should be a range of ways with no one controlling interest.

...some examples might be helpful?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

First you were talking about world-view groups, now you are on about temporal groups - what on earth is a temporal group.

Give us some examples please - you've completely failed to provide examples of these world-view groups.

And you have also failed to address the question of who makes the decision as to which world-view groups or temporal groups get automatic places, and why.

Temporal groups might be secular areas like industry  finance public service science and medicine agriculture. Law.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...some examples might be helpful?

For example suppose there was competition between Ricky Gervase and Marcus Brigstocke for a place in the Lords.
They could be elected on whose feeling funny  lasts the longest

[ProfessorDavey]

How one gets into the HoL, there should be a range of ways with no one controlling interest.

But there is exactly that for the Lords spiritual - the single controlling interest is the CofE.

And even if you broadened it to more world-view groups (whatever that may mean, you've still failed to provide a single example) then that would be controlled by those that decide which groups do and which do not get an automatic place.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But there is exactly that for the Lords spiritual - the single controlling interest is the CofE.

And even if you broadened it to more world-view groups (whatever that may mean, you've still failed to provide a single example) then that would be controlled by those that decide which groups do and which do not get an automatic place.

Yes we know that the Co E is the controlling interest so far as the Lords spiritual but that can be changed before getting rid of lords spiritual and imposing a stunted view of humanity on the HoL.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes we know that the Co E is the controlling interest so far as the Lords spiritual but that can be changed before getting rid of lords spiritual and imposing a stunted view of humanity on the HoL.

Why would abolishing a particular manner for selecting members of the HoLs (that is what the Lords spiritual is) result in a stunted view of humanity on the HoL.

Did you think that abolishing the hereditary peers (another manner for selecting members of the HoLs) similar resulted in a stunted view of humanity on the HoL. If not, why not.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why would abolishing a particular manner for selecting members of the HoLs (that is what the Lords spiritual is) result in a stunted view of humanity on the HoL.

Did you think that abolishing the hereditary peers (another manner for selecting members of the HoLs) similar resulted in a stunted view of humanity on the HoL. If not, why not.

There is a distinction between getting rid of the lords spiritual and broadening its membership and the means of selection. I don't know why you are conflating changing the selection procedure with getting rid of the Lords spiritual.

The only people who can benefit from pretending or ignoring humanities spiritual concern are a minority who insist we don't have one. They would become the preferentially treated.

Getting rid of Lords spiritual is not anyway to get rid of privilege.

[ProfessorDavey]

There is a distinction between getting rid of the lords spiritual and broadening its membership and the means of selection. I don't know why you are conflating changing the selection procedure with getting rid of the Lords spiritual.

Because the key feature of the Lord spiritual is its selection - once selected the Lords spiritual operate in exactly the same way as any other member of the HoLs. You cannot retain the Lords spiritual and change their selection as they'd just become Lords temporal. It would be like saying you can retain hereditary peers but they aren't automatically appointed when their dad dies, they go through some other process. If that is the case, then you've abolished hereditary peers.

[Outrider]

There are two aspects to our lives where and how we get our daily bread and the maintenance of it i....otherwise known as our material or temporal life nd our spiritual or reflective life concerned with issues which complete and distinguish our humanity.

There are innumerable aspects of our existence - spirituality is, at most, one of those. Why does it need special status amongst all the concerns?

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

Temporal groups might be secular areas like industry  finance public service science and medicine agriculture. Law.

How would those people be appointed Vlad. Currently the normal appointment, via nominal of individuals, scrutiny, approval etc takes account those factor as the key relevant experience suitable for appointment as a peer might be that individual's expertise in science (e.g. Lord Rees) or medicine (e.g. Lord Winston) or law (e.g. Lord Wolf) or industry (e.g. Lord Sugar) etc etc, so why would this be any different.

It would only be different if, instead of an appointment process based on individuals, it was based on groups. So for example the Gen Sec of the TUC automatically becomes a peer, or the Dir Gen of the CBI, or the President of the Royal Society. That is the current approach for the Lords spiritual, but to extend this is fraught with all sorts of issues (and to my mind fundamentally undesirable), not least you'd end up with the Lords being full of people simply representing special interest groups, as they'd only be in the Lords based on being effectively a representative of that special interest group. Of course this is really what the bishops already are - representatives of a special interest group.

[Nearly Sane]

There are innumerable aspects of our existence - spirituality is, at most, one of those. Why does it need special status amongst all the concerns?

O.

It might also help if Vlad defined it because it's not clear to me what he means by it.

[ProfessorDavey]

It might also help if Vlad defined it because it's not clear to me what he means by it.

It would be helpful if he would also identify some of these world-view groups and temporal groups which he claims, under his proposed system, would be given automatic seats in the HoLs for specified role-holders within those organisations (as per the Lords spiritual approach for the CofE).

[Sebastian Toe]

For example suppose there was competition between Ricky Gervase and Marcus Brigstocke for a place in the Lords.
They could be elected on whose feeling funny  lasts the longest

What Temporal group would that cover?

...got any other examples?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are innumerable aspects of our existence - spirituality is, at most, one of those. Why does it need special status amongst all the concerns?

O.

Are there? name some.

[Sebastian Toe]

Are there? name some.

1) Self Aspect,
2) Behavioral Aspect,
3) Social Aspect,
4) Physical Aspect,
5) EmotionalAspect,
6) Mental Aspect 
7) Spiritual Aspect.


..is one view.
There are others.

[Outrider]

Are there? name some.

Or, working from a cultural perspective, a non-exhaustive list:

Family
Sport
Military Service
Healthcare
Education
Science
Industry
Entertainment
Spirituality

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It would be helpful if he would also identify some of these world-view groups and temporal groups which he claims, under his proposed system, would be given automatic seats in the HoLs for specified role-holders within those organisations (as per the Lords spiritual approach for the CofE).

I have said that the seats in the Lords spiritual be divided demographically with how each group elects or selects left up to the group.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Or, working from a cultural perspective, a non-exhaustive list:

Family
Sport
Military Service
Healthcare
Education
Science
Industry
Entertainment
Spirituality

O.

These can reduce down to spiritual and secular.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have said that the seats in the Lords spiritual be divided demographically with how each group elects or selects left up to the group.

For crying out Vlad - name some of these groups.

What group represents utilitarianism as a world view. What group represents importance of family as a world view. What group represents mindfulness as a world view etc etc.

The point is that most of these aspects that individuals may consider really important to who they are are not obviously represented as by a defined organised group - a 'members' club so to speak. Religion, yup but most of the others - nope. That doesn't make them less important but it fundamentally undermines your proposal from a practical perspective, setting aside whether it is desirable (which I don't think it is).

[ProfessorDavey]

These can reduce down to spiritual and secular.

Nice divide and rule Vlad.

So really by spiritual you mean religion. So effectively you are equating religion on the one hand, and everything else on the other as some how equals - non-sense.

[Sebastian Toe]

I have said that the seats in the Lords spiritual be divided demographically with how each group elects or selects left up to the group.

What are the (demographic) groups to which you refer?

[ProfessorDavey]

What are the (demographic) groups to which you refer?

Interesting how Vlad simply wants to pigeon hole us all - for example if you are a white, male, atheist, middle-aged, humanist, yoga-enjoying, environmentalist, vegetarian.

So you need to be represented by.

1. A white person special interest group
2. A men's special interest group
3. An atheist special interest group
4. A middle aged person's special interest group
etc etc

Well, of course in many cases these groups simply don't exist, but even if they did why would they represent me unless I've actually chosen to be a member of that group - they don't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For crying out Vlad - name some of these groups.

What group represents utilitarianism as a world view. What group represents importance of family as a world view. What group represents mindfulness as a world view etc etc.

The point is that most of these aspects that individuals may consider really important to who they are are not obviously represented as by a defined organised group - a 'members' club so to speak. Religion, yup but most of the others - nope. That doesn't make them less important but it fundamentally undermines your proposal from a practical perspective, setting aside whether it is desirable (which I don't think it is).

Unfortunately people do divide practically according to religious observance and this has an impact on society. Humanism is also becoming a similar force based on the human spirit. Utilitarianism plays out in socio economic and political life and is represented by the impact on and outlook of those whose expertise gets them into the Lords temporal.