Author Topic: Does antitheism exist?  (Read 73942 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #350 on: June 09, 2020, 02:33:26 PM »
of course showbiz people invariably reach the HoL when did that last not happen?

Are you in agreement with spiritual leaders being invariably selected for the House of Lords?
Barbara Windsor

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #351 on: June 09, 2020, 03:08:45 PM »
Barbara Windsor
Get out of my pub....lic forum!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #352 on: June 09, 2020, 03:09:54 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #353 on: June 09, 2020, 03:11:22 PM »
of course showbiz people invariably reach the HoL when did that last not happen?

Are you in agreement with spiritual leaders being invariably selected for the House of Lords?
Thanks for once again confirming that there are no automatic places in the HoLs for showbiz folks unlike the special privilege for the CofE who get 26 automatic places for their bishops.

Delighted that in post after post you simply confirm that the CofE's special privilege regarding automatic seats.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #354 on: June 09, 2020, 03:25:49 PM »
of course showbiz people invariably reach the HoL when did that last not happen?

Are you in agreement with spiritual leaders being invariably selected for the House of Lords?
If they were invariably selected under identical circumstance as the the others.
So why not abolish the guaranteed pre-selection for them?
Surely they will invariably selected under those circumstances  regardless?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #355 on: June 09, 2020, 06:40:38 PM »
If they were invariably selected under identical circumstance as the the others.
So why not abolish the guaranteed pre-selection for them?
Surely they will invariably selected under those circumstances  regardless?
Are we talking invariable selection of a number for each faith which varies according to census within a fixed number like inherited peers or invariable selection of a variable number?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #356 on: June 09, 2020, 06:52:08 PM »
Are we talking invariable selection of a number for each faith which varies according to census within a fixed number like inherited peers or invariable selection of a variable number?
Dunno. Are you?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #357 on: June 09, 2020, 07:32:29 PM »
Dunno. Are you?
I'm talking the former.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #358 on: June 09, 2020, 07:41:17 PM »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #359 on: June 09, 2020, 07:47:52 PM »
I'm talking the former.
I think I understand where you are coming from.

Would a lord lose their seat if say a census showed that a currently un or lesser represented 'group' , became more numerous than the one he/she currently represented?

Would there be that amount of flexibility built in?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #360 on: June 10, 2020, 08:42:15 AM »
Are we talking invariable selection of a number for each faith which varies according to census within a fixed number like inherited peers or invariable selection of a variable number?
But that is a flawed system, as presumably you'd be using religious leaders to represent public census responses. That is inappropriate as you'd be using the most committed religious individuals (the religious leaders) to represent a public who are mainly not actively religious even if they tick a box on the census.

Christianity is the most extreme example - of those that ticked christian on the census about 90% aren't active at all - never attend church, wouldn't consider themselves as a member of a particular denomination and the churches themselves do not consider these people to be their members. In what way does the leader of a particular religious organisation represent people who have chosen not to be active members of that organisation.

So if you really want to follow the census (even allowing for its flawed methodology), for your new proposition of Lords 'life belief' or whatever non-sense term you've come up with, you'll need proportionately (to represent the population).

50% non active 'census' christians
25% non religious
8% active christian - divided between who knows how many denominations
5% muslim (but this needs also to divide between active and non active muslim representation and to represent the various branches of islam)

etc, etc

Complete non-sense and good luck with identifying the organisations and their leaders to represent the well over 75% of the population who are non religious or non active and not members of any religious organisation.





Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #361 on: June 10, 2020, 09:41:34 AM »
But that is a flawed system, as presumably you'd be using religious leaders to represent public census responses. That is inappropriate as you'd be using the most committed religious individuals (the religious leaders) to represent a public who are mainly not actively religious even if they tick a box on the census.

Christianity is the most extreme example - of those that ticked christian on the census about 90% aren't active at all - never attend church, wouldn't consider themselves as a member of a particular denomination and the churches themselves do not consider these people to be their members. In what way does the leader of a particular religious organisation represent people who have chosen not to be active members of that organisation.

So if you really want to follow the census (even allowing for its flawed methodology), for your new proposition of Lords 'life belief' or whatever non-sense term you've come up with, you'll need proportionately (to represent the population).

50% non active 'census' christians
25% non religious
8% active christian - divided between who knows how many denominations
5% muslim (but this needs also to divide between active and non active muslim representation and to represent the various branches of islam)

etc, etc

Complete non-sense and good luck with identifying the organisations and their leaders to represent the well over 75% of the population who are non religious or non active and not members of any religious organisation.
But Davey, the whole thing is flawed. The only thing it has going for it is that it promotes experience and expertise against a bovine electorate and political spin vis a vis the commons.

To that end I'm not an active banker or an active educationalist or an active entrepreneur but that doesn't mean these areas shouldn't have people who know what they are talking about.

Has it occurred to you that they keep putting Christianity because not only do they want to hang on to it but because they now have an antitheist alternative and dont like the look of it.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #362 on: June 10, 2020, 09:51:21 AM »
Has it occurred to you that they keep putting Christianity because not only do they want to hang on to it but because they now have an antitheist alternative and dont like the look of it.
No - they put 'Christian' because the census poses a leading question:

"What is your religion"

Surveys that pose a neutral non-leading question, with an equal equivalence yes/no response (with the follow question for those that indicate they are religious) consistently report much lower levels of religious people, and specifically christians than the census.

In many cases the response to the census is merely a nod to tradition and how a person was brought up rather than their current position on religion. It doesn't provide an accurate picture of the religious makeup of the UK. If you compare with other surveys the majority (sometimes vast majority) of census christians do not believe in the basic tenets of christianity (e.g. resurrection) do not consider religion to be important in their lives and have no active involvement with or membership of any church. In what manner can these people be called 'christians' - they aren't - they are non religious people who come from a christian heritage.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #363 on: June 10, 2020, 10:30:19 AM »
No - they put 'Christian' because the census poses a leading question:

"What is your religion"

Surveys that pose a neutral non-leading question, with an equal equivalence yes/no response (with the follow question for those that indicate they are religious) consistently report much lower levels of religious people, and specifically christians than the census.

In many cases the response to the census is merely a nod to tradition and how a person was brought up rather than their current position on religion. It doesn't provide an accurate picture of the religious makeup of the UK. If you compare with other surveys the majority (sometimes vast majority) of census christians do not believe in the basic tenets of christianity (e.g. resurrection) do not consider religion to be important in their lives and have no active involvement with or membership of any church. In what manner can these people be called 'christians' - they aren't - they are non religious people who come from a christian heritage.
We will now sing hymn number 301
"Hark, the sound of scraping barrels".
Davey when asked directly what your religion was.....a perfectly reasonable questionl ike what is your nationality or how many bedrooms do you have.......what was your answer?

Secondly Inmy years on religion ethics I have seen the same response from folks like yourself to the claim that people arent christian. It seems then that only atheists can say who is a proper christian and who isn't.

Thirdly ....give an example of the so called neutral non leading question.

Outrider

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #364 on: June 10, 2020, 01:51:40 PM »
We will now sing hymn number 301
"Hark, the sound of scraping barrels".
Davey when asked directly what your religion was.....a perfectly reasonable questionl ike what is your nationality or how many bedrooms do you have.......what was your answer?

Secondly Inmy years on religion ethics I have seen the same response from folks like yourself to the claim that people arent christian. It seems then that only atheists can say who is a proper christian and who isn't.

At risk of falling back on the evidence, Psephology studies have clearly shown that the leading nature of the question in the Census leads to a significantly higher reporting of religiosity.  So it might 'scraping the barrel', but it's doing so with a carefully calibrated stick and, importantly, it's still getting stuff out.

O.



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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #365 on: June 10, 2020, 02:39:48 PM »

. It seems then that only atheists can say who is a proper christian and who isn't.

Have you tried asking Sassy if you are a proper Christian?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #366 on: June 10, 2020, 03:17:19 PM »
Thirdly ....give an example of the so called neutral non leading question.
One that provides a simple yes/no response.

For example (I think this one is used by the British social attitudes survey:

Do you have a religious belief - yes, no (or don't know)

If the respondent replies yes then they are asked a supplementary question on which religious belief.

The census question is the equavalent of asking:

'What football team do you support?' (totally leading question implying you should support a football team), rather than asking the neutral, non leading question 'Do you support a football team?'

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #367 on: June 10, 2020, 03:26:37 PM »
At risk of falling back on the evidence, Psephology studies have clearly shown that the leading nature of the question in the Census leads to a significantly higher reporting of religiosity.  So it might 'scraping the barrel', but it's doing so with a carefully calibrated stick and, importantly, it's still getting stuff out.

O.



And
A higher response?
How did you answer that question?
There is no societal pressure to declare a religion.
I wonder if questions can increase a positive response. Is there a class of questions that humanist UK and the Dawkins foundation  are proposing as a replacement that increase a negative response?
Isn't this just sour grapes on the part of antitheists?

I did ask for examples of non leading neutral questions that might give your side a better outcome.
So far not forthcoming.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #368 on: June 10, 2020, 03:35:42 PM »
There is no societal pressure to declare a religion.
Ask a leading question and you'll get a skewed answer - this is extremely well understood by psephologists.

The census religion question is leading - and produces higher levels of people reporting a religion than a range of other studies that do not use leading questions. This is a well recognised phenomenon.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #369 on: June 10, 2020, 03:40:08 PM »
One that provides a simple yes/no response.

For example (I think this one is used by the British social attitudes survey:

Do you have a religious belief - yes, no (or don't know)

If the respondent replies yes then they are asked a supplementary question on which religious belief.

The census question is the equavalent of asking:

'What football team do you support?' (totally leading question implying you should support a football team), rather than asking the neutral, non leading question 'Do you support a football team?'
If I answer no football team. What would be wrong with that?
There are also circumstances in which a question such as Do you have a religious belief could be seen as leading and of course it depends on the context the question

In a secular society where religion is looked on as odd or bad like secular Britain many might wish to keep quite.

That is a damning indictment on secularists in the UK I'm afraid.

If there is a supplementary question for religion there should be a supplementary question for the non religious too.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #370 on: June 10, 2020, 03:43:44 PM »
Have you tried asking Sassy if you are a proper Christian?
Sassy would be commenting on one person not millions like the Prof is doing.

Roses

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #371 on: June 10, 2020, 03:48:05 PM »
Sassy would be commenting on one person not millions like the Prof is doing.

Sass probably thinks she is the only 'proper' Christian (whatever that means) on this forum! ;D
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #372 on: June 10, 2020, 03:52:08 PM »
Sassy would be commenting on one person not millions like the Prof is doing.
But, have you asked her?
Would you not like to know if you are a proper Christian or not?
Would it matter to you if she said that you are not a proper Christian?

In addition she would also be commenting on however many Christians follow the same tenets as yourself would she not?
Which may or may not amount to millions.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 03:54:40 PM by Sebastian Toe »
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #373 on: June 10, 2020, 03:54:09 PM »
Sass probably thinks she is the only 'proper' Christian (whatever that means) on this forum! ;D
I'm not sure that is fair. Sassy has never questioned thepropiety of my Christianity and has never treated me as anything other than a Believer. She is perfectly at liberty to revise any of that.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #374 on: June 10, 2020, 03:56:27 PM »
If I answer no football team. What would be wrong with that
The issue is about implicit implication.

Ask "what football team do you support' and it is implicitly implied that the default position is that you support a football team - sure you can answer 'no football team', but to do that you need to counter the implicit implication that you do support a football team - it is a non neutral leading question.

Ask, on the other hand 'Do you support a football team' and their is no implicit bias - supporting a football team and not supporting a football team are equally weighted, so to speak. It is a neutral non leading question.

You can read up on leading questions and their impact on perceived religiosity here:

https://cls.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BCS70-data-note-2012-The-art-of-asking-questions-about-religion-A-Sullivan-D-Voas-M-Brown-November-2012.pdf