Author Topic: Does antitheism exist?  (Read 74279 times)

Stranger

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #825 on: June 28, 2020, 10:25:25 AM »
No it just means they cannot prove it scientifically.

Unfalsifiable means that there is no test you can do that could prove it to be false. That is, the proposal makes no testable predictions. It is therefore (provided it is also logically self-consistent) impossible to show that it is false.

This applies to many versions of god(s) (and many other fantastical stories and, for that matter, many naturalistic conjectures), so we cannot show that they are all false.

That's why the burden of proof is vital to sanity - otherwise we'd have to accept any number of bizarre and mutually exclusive proposals merely because we cannot positively rule them out.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #826 on: June 28, 2020, 10:27:05 AM »
If you are saying nobody has the cojones around here to make a positive case for God Free or rather own up to trying a piecemeal
stealthy case then I'm forced to agree with you.

I'm not saying that though, and neither is anyone else.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #827 on: June 28, 2020, 10:32:10 AM »
I'm not saying that though, and neither is anyone else.
Er I am.

Stranger

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #828 on: June 28, 2020, 10:34:24 AM »
YOU could find them universally hopeless for a number of reasons. However if you are still unsure then either or collectively they introduce some doubt into your atheism

No. This seems to be something else you've not understood. A totally hopeless argument for something says nothing at all about the truth value of its conclusion.

I don't have any belief in god(s) because I've never seen good reason to take any of them seriously (all the arguments are hopeless) but I can't 100% rule out the self-consistent and unfalsifiable ones, and claim to know that reality is "god free", entirely because there are self-consistent and unfalsifiable.
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Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #829 on: June 28, 2020, 10:35:18 AM »
Er I am.

The it is up to you to offer a 'God free' argument.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #830 on: June 28, 2020, 10:46:30 AM »
The it is up to you to offer a 'God free' argument.
Oh I see. I misunderstood you

Do you mean nobody is explicitly saying the universe is God free
While cunningly, sneakingly, underhandedly, slimingly, craftily, oleaginously, lubriciously, mostly, frictionlessly suggesting it?

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #831 on: June 28, 2020, 11:36:35 AM »
Oh I see. I misunderstood you


Surely not!

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Do you mean nobody is explicitly saying the universe is God free

Give that boy a coconut.

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While cunningly, sneakingly, underhandedly, slimingly, craftily, oleaginously, lubriciously, mostly, frictionlessly suggesting it?

If you have a lighter or matches on your person please be careful of all that straw you've surrounded yourself with.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #832 on: June 28, 2020, 11:38:25 AM »
You're still not getting it, Vlad

1. Rejecting certain arguments for 'God' does not imply 'the conclusion 'God free', does not require a counter-argument is offered and involves no burden of proof: it merely indicates the view that there are no good current reasons to conclude 'God' because the arguments offered in support of 'God' can be shown to fail.

2. Who here is arguing specifically that there is no 'God' or that, to use your phrase, the universe is 'God free'? If people aren't specifically arguing that, and they aren't, then they have no burden of proof.

You may not specifically argue it but by making it the status quo you are in fact asserting it. Of course this comes from borrowing a legal term and making God free or God's analogous to innocent until proven guilty. God free until proved otherwise.

God free though is a positive state since this is reality we are talking about. Therefore assuming God free is a positive statement. In other words atheism is a form of cake-ism not saying there is no God (Cake)  while making it the status quo in burden of proof(eating said cake)
I
Yes there are logical fallacies and yes they can be found in any class of argument.....if you claim no argument then there can be no logic nor fallacies.Coming up with an alternative does not make an argument false.....less so if that alternative is wrong.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:57:03 AM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #833 on: June 28, 2020, 11:59:02 AM »
You may not specifically argue it but by making it the status quo you are in fact asserting it. Of course this comes from borrowing a legal term and making God free or God's analogous to innocent until proven guilty. God free until proved otherwise.

Wrong again.

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God free though is a positive state since this is reality we are talking about.

Then argue for it: it isn't my claim.

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Therefore assuming God free is a positive statement.

Then argue for it: it isn't my claim.

Quote
Yes there are logical fallacies and yes they can be found in any class of argument.....if you claim no argument then there can be no logic nor fallacies.Coming up with an alternative does not make an argument false.....less so if that alternative is wrong.

I'm not coming up with alternative arguments though - you seem you be just thrashing around now.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #834 on: June 28, 2020, 12:00:47 PM »
Wrong again.

Then argue for it: it isn't my claim.

Then argue for it: it isn't my claim.

I'm not coming up with alternative arguments though - you seem you be just thrashing around now.
I'm not talking about you Gordon. I freely acknowledge you are saying precious little if anything at all.

Roses

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #835 on: June 28, 2020, 12:02:53 PM »
I'm not talking about you Gordon. I freely acknowledge you are saying precious little if anything at all.

A monkey's gibberish would make more sense than yours does. ;D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #836 on: June 28, 2020, 12:15:44 PM »
A monkey's gibberish would make more sense than yours does. ;D
Anything in particular or is your interjection merely due to say a short circuit in the toaster making the synapses fire?

Roses

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #837 on: June 28, 2020, 12:23:32 PM »
Anything in particular or is your interjection merely due to say a short circuit in the toaster making the synapses fire?

I rest my case. ::)
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #838 on: June 28, 2020, 12:26:22 PM »
I rest my case. ::)
You certainly rest A case.

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #839 on: June 28, 2020, 12:32:02 PM »
I'm not talking about you Gordon. I freely acknowledge you are saying precious little if anything at all.

Well - once you've dismissed the established 'God' arguments as having failed, and ignored any other incoherent white noise (such as AB advances), there is little else left to say.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #840 on: June 28, 2020, 01:18:14 PM »
Well - once you've dismissed the established 'God' arguments as having failed, and ignored any other incoherent white noise (such as AB advances), there is little else left to say.
Sounds like it should all work in theory. It will be nice to see it tried out.

In the meantime those asserting that people who propose or suggest God have THE burden of proof ought to be making a case for why God free should be the default.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 01:25:55 PM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

Roses

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #841 on: June 28, 2020, 01:37:51 PM »
Sounds like it should all work in theory. It will be nice to see it tried out.

In the meantime those asserting that people who propose or suggest God have THE burden of proof ought to be making a case for why God free should be the default.

I don't think English is your first language, you screw up your sentences so badly. ::)
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Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #842 on: June 28, 2020, 01:45:07 PM »
Sounds like it should all work in theory. It will be nice to see it tried out.

It does: it has been my approach for many years now.

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In the meantime those asserting that people who propose or suggest God have THE burden of proof ought to be making a case for why God free should be the default.

Why ought they to do that if that isn't a claim they are making?

You're really not getting this.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 01:53:06 PM by Gordon »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #843 on: June 28, 2020, 01:45:18 PM »
Well - once you've dismissed the established 'God' arguments as having failed, and ignored any other incoherent white noise (such as AB advances), there is little else left to say.
I don't see how the idea that the universe could not have had a creator has been established.
Nor that the universe is somehow itself the necessary entity.

They both are unfalsifiable and yet by implication they are the foundation for me supposedly having THE burden of proof.

If you are saying ah, that is because we can see the universe and we cannot see God that is an argument based on empiricism which itself is unfalsifiable. So it seems that your choice of establishing the burden rather acknowledging burdens all round, to me shows a deficiency in rigour.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #844 on: June 28, 2020, 01:46:38 PM »
I don't think English is your first language, you screw up your sentences so badly. ::)
Tokking complote billex you should stopping making.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #845 on: June 28, 2020, 01:48:33 PM »
It does: it has been my approach for many years now.

Why ought they so do that if that isn't a claim they are making?

You're really not getting this.
How are you defining making a claim here.

Do you agree that if people say I believe in God they are making a claim about God?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #846 on: June 28, 2020, 01:59:48 PM »
It does: it has been my approach for many years now.

It's the 'your approach' bit that worries me there Gordon.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #847 on: June 28, 2020, 02:01:11 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
When I used the search facility on quantum borrowing because I could not find the citations. I'm afraid I could not find them.
Outrider sent me a reply initially asking what I meant so I believe he was at least a little in the dark.

You put it as an alternative possible to the solution to the universe and I  criticised it as such. Just because you never said it must be so doesn't make the idea free from criticism.

I bring it up again because if it were possible for an infinite universe then quantum borrowing would have been creating virtual particles for ever thus putting necessity as time dependent in doubt. Since in an infinity that which creates and the created exist infinitely.

I believe that necessity being time related was a piece of nonsense by Stephen Laws to whom we can say "stop woah yeh wait a minute mr postman"

So if you put an alternative prepare to have it criticised and do man up.

I see your mistake here. You seem to think that “possible” and “impossible” are opposites, when they’re not at all – they’re epistemically in different categories. A possible is just the claim that if a logically sound justification for it was ever found then a tentative conjecture could turn out demonstrably to be true. The evidential bar for a possible is very low – quantum borrowing is a possible; leprechauns are a possible. Even your god (leaving aside your definitional problems with the claim) is a possible.

An impossible on the other hand is a claim of certainty – it says that something categorically cannot be, no if and no buts. The claim of certain impossibility is what you rely on to dismiss not only all the current conjectures we have for the origins of the universe, but also to dismiss any other naturalistic explanation that may ever being found in future. It’s a huge claim, and so the evidential bar for it is stratospherically high – not only does it require a comprehensive grasp of all the science that’s given us the conjectures we have so far and the better understanding of that science to falsify those conjectures, it also requires you to have the knowledge to do that for conjectures that no-one’s even thought of yet.

Oh, and even if you could do l that still you’d have all your work ahead of you to demonstrate the specific positive claim “God” rather than any other causal agent.

Apart from all that though…
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God

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #848 on: June 28, 2020, 02:07:27 PM »
I don't see how the idea that the universe could not have had a creator has been established.
Nor that the universe is somehow itself the necessary entity.

They both are unfalsifiable and yet by implication they are the foundation for me supposedly having THE burden of proof.

Nobody is trying to establish that the universe could not have a creator since, as far as I can see, there isn't an argument to support that claim one way or the other, and the same goes for for your other point (that the universe is a necessary entity) - perhaps 'don't know' is the safest option, Vlad.

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If you are saying ah, that is because we can see the universe and we cannot see God that is an argument based on empiricism which itself is unfalsifiable. So it seems that your choice of establishing the burden rather acknowledging burdens all round, to me shows a deficiency in rigour.

I'm not saying that though: you do love your straw men.

Gordon

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Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #849 on: June 28, 2020, 02:08:54 PM »
It's the 'your approach' bit that worries me there Gordon.

Try not to worry then, Vlad: I'm fine, and if you come up with an argument for your 'God' that isn't flawed or incoherent then I'll review my stance.