Author Topic: Does antitheism exist?  (Read 74210 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #875 on: June 28, 2020, 03:43:50 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Anyone?

One does not have to make the claim because......The default position is that God does not exist because..................,.?

What's so confusing? You are (presumably) an a-leprechaunist. Is that because you make the claim that there are categorically no such thing, or because you have no reasons for thinking they do exist? 

"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #876 on: June 28, 2020, 03:45:53 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I'm only using because it is supposed to be the status quo which is allowing you supposedly to say that I have the burden.

I don't care why you're using it. What Im asking you is what you mean by it given its ambiguity. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #877 on: June 28, 2020, 03:46:12 PM »
Vlad,

No it isn’t. The foundational idea is that we should not accept that anything exists unless there are sound grounds for thinking otherwise.
Well then you have to say what those sound grounds are.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #878 on: June 28, 2020, 03:47:33 PM »
Vlad,

I don't care why you're using it.
Evidently.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #879 on: June 28, 2020, 03:50:11 PM »
I'm afraid it advises not to multiply entities beyond necessity Gordon.

I thought you'd say that so I added a comment about your use of the term as a synonym for a first cause - as far as I'm aware Occam isn't used as an argument for a first cause (since it isn't really an argument).

Quote
I have to disagree with the no good arguments. It seems that the possibilities put forward to answer the question of why something and not nothing regarding the physical world are no good though, By dint of mainly starting with something, er, physical

The present an argument you can defend or, like me, conclude that 'don't know' is a sensible position.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #880 on: June 28, 2020, 03:51:38 PM »
Vlad,

I don't care why you're using it. What Im asking you is what you mean by it given its ambiguity.
It is the thing you are saying I have a burden of proof for. It is that which supposedly does not exist until you have sound reason to believe it does. It is the thing you are acting as if it isn't there.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #881 on: June 28, 2020, 03:52:36 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Well then you have to say what those sound grounds are.

You know that already because you apply the same grounds to truth claims that other people make. Perhaps if you stopped fucking around and tried some honesty you'd stop wasting everyone's time here?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #882 on: June 28, 2020, 03:59:29 PM »
Vlad,

What's so confusing? You are (presumably) an a-leprechaunist. Is that because you make the claim that there are categorically no such thing, or because you have no reasons for thinking they do exist?
I act as if little green irish men smoking upside down pipes with pots of Gold don't exist because. I see none of those empirical markers claimed which I should see and would probably act the same as I do now even if they did exist. That is the reason for my agleprechaunism.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #883 on: June 28, 2020, 04:00:22 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
It is the thing you are saying I have a burden of proof for.

No it isn’t. The claim you have the burden of proof for is “God”. “God free” on the other hand is a phrase you’ve tried, presumably deliberately ambiguously so you can hide behind it.

Why are you refusing to define your own term?

Quote
It is that which supposedly does not exist until you have sound reason to believe it does.

Wrong. “Does not exist” is a positive statement. It is not the same as, “there’s no good reason to think exists”. I explained all this to you a few posts back when I identified your category error re “possible/impossible”. Perhaps I you bothered to understand what people here say you wouldn’t keep making exactly the same mistakes over and over again?
 
Quote
It is the thing you are acting as if it isn't there.

That’s a different thing to “It is that which supposedly does not exist until…” etc. Which one are you trying to assert?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #884 on: June 28, 2020, 04:01:33 PM »
Vlad,

You know that already 
Oh here we go again.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #885 on: June 28, 2020, 04:04:31 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I act as if little green irish men smoking upside down pipes with pots of Gold don't exist because. I see none of those empirical markers claimed which I should see and would probably act the same as I do now even if they did exist. That is the reason for my agleprechaunism.


Or, to put it another way, not because you assert them definitively not to exist, but because you have no good reasons to think they do exist. Good. Now substitute leprechauns for “god” and you’ll grasp what atheism is. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #886 on: June 28, 2020, 04:07:32 PM »
Vlad,

No it isn’t. The claim you have the burden of proof for is “God”. “God free” on the other hand is a phrase you’ve tried, presumably deliberately ambiguously so you can hide behind it.

Why are you refusing to define your own term?

Wrong. “Does not exist” is a positive statement. It is not the same as, “there’s no good reason to think exists”.
''There's no good reason'' is a positive statement. Therefore, what do you mean by good reason since it's you who is having trouble seeing it.?

It fucking is the same and anyway you've already owned up to saying you assume it doesn't exist and that's why I have the burden of proof!


bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #887 on: June 28, 2020, 04:19:56 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
''There's no good reason'' is a positive statement. Therefore, what do you mean by good reason since it's you who is having trouble seeing it.?

This burden of proof thing really has got you foxed still hasn’t it. “God” is your claim, you yell me what reasons you think to be good enough to accept it. I’m not having trouble seeing anything because – so far at least – you’ve offered nothing to see (other than the white noise assertion “god”).

Let’s say that I asserted Zeus to be real – what would you mean by good reason to accept my claim since you seem to be having trouble seeing it?

Quote
It fucking is the same…

Not even close. Try again, only try this time to grasp your category error – “X does not exist” and “I have no good reason to believe X exists” are fundamentally different categories of statement. Trying to squeeze them both into “god free”/"X free" so as to hide behind the ambiguity is dishonest.   

Quote
…and anyway you've already owned up to saying you assume it doesn't exist and that's why I have the burden of proof!

He lied.

Again.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #888 on: June 28, 2020, 04:23:59 PM »
Vlad,
 

Or, to put it another way, not because you assert them definitively not to exist, but because you have no good reasons to think they do exist.
I have not experienced the physical markers given in the description and seen no physical record or report of them. That is the reason I do not believe in them. I would act as if they did not exist even if they did exist.

That is different from atheism which rejects the markers........and why do I not reject the markers for God? Because I am not an empiricist.a fucking empiricist.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #889 on: June 28, 2020, 04:36:25 PM »
Vlad,

This burden of proof thing really has got you foxed still hasn’t it. “God” is your claim, you yell me what reasons you think to be good enough to accept it. I’m not having trouble seeing anything because – so far at least – you’ve offered nothing to see (other than the white noise assertion “god”).

Let’s say that I asserted Zeus to be real – what would you mean by good reason to accept my claim since you seem to be having trouble seeing it?

Not even close. Try again, only try this time to grasp your category error – “X does not exist” and “I have no good reason to believe X exists” are fundamentally different categories of statement. Trying to squeeze them both into “god free”/"X free" so as to hide behind the ambiguity is dishonest.   

He lied.

Again.
I agree God does not exist is not the same as I believe God does not exist.

However there are ''no good reasons'' for belief IS in the same category. In other words you are trying to disguise a positive assertion


Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7990
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #890 on: June 28, 2020, 04:47:50 PM »
Explain why the existence of god is anymore credible than the existence of fairies?
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #891 on: June 28, 2020, 05:00:42 PM »
Explain why the existence of god is anymore credible than the existence of fairies?
Fairies are little chaps and chapesses with wings no new indigenous animal species have been discovered in this country as far as I know. Mind you, there must be something that keeps voting Tory.

God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. The unseeable necessity which explains the contingency, the cause of morality in the universe whose holiness is unmatched.

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7990
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #892 on: June 28, 2020, 05:04:32 PM »
Fairies are little chaps and chapesses with wings no new indigenous animal species have been discovered in this country as far as I know. Mind you, there must be something that keeps voting Tory.

God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. The unseeable necessity which explains the contingency, the cause of morality in the universe whose holiness is unmatched.

In other words, god is another creation of the human imagination for which there is no verifiable evidence.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #893 on: June 28, 2020, 05:08:43 PM »
god is another creation of the human imagination for which there is no verifiable evidence.
Lets see your verifiable evidence for that being the case.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #894 on: June 28, 2020, 05:09:37 PM »
However there are ''no good reasons'' for belief IS in the same category. In other words you are trying to disguise a positive assertion

Jeez, the fact that you'll do anything rather than actually attempt to supply a reason to believe in your god, is speaking volumes.

When Tegmark came up with his mathematical universe conjecture, he didn't sit around pretending that other people had to produce reasons for "mathematical universe-free" or whinging that people saying there was no good reason to believe him were making positive claims, he got on with the job of trying to persuade people of his point of view.

When Penrose decided that human minds couldn't be algorithmic and that some non-algorithmic process in 'orchestrated' quantum collapse was how it worked, he didn't sit around pretending that other people had to produce reasons for "orchestrated collapse-free" or whinging that people saying there was no good reason to believe him were making positive claims, he got on with the job of trying to persuade people of his point of view.

Why the hell would claims of various god(s)-concepts be treated any differently?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #895 on: June 28, 2020, 05:16:27 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I have not experienced the physical markers given in the description and seen no physical record or report of them. That is the reason I do not believe in them. I would act as if they did not exist even if they did exist.

The “physical” is redundant – you don’t believe in them because you’ve seen neither compelling reasons nor evidence of any sort for them. Good. Nor have I. Nor though have I seen compelling reasons nor evidence for you assertion “God”. Thus I act as if your god doesn’t exist, even if “He” does.

Is this sinking in now?   

Quote
That is different from atheism…

No it isn’t – it’s exactly analogous.

Quote
… which rejects the markers........

No, it says that what you call “markers” is logically false reasoning for reasons you understand already because you’d identify them as fallacious too if I tried the same arguments to justify the claim “leprechauns”.

Quote
…and why do I not reject the markers for God? Because I am not a fucking empiricist.

No, it’s because you are a fucking faithhead. Trouble is though, that’s all you have – faith.

Quote
I agree God does not exist is not the same as I believe God does not exist.

That’s not what I said. Try reading it for comprehension this time. 

Quote
However there are ''no good reasons'' for belief IS in the same category. In other words you are trying to disguise a positive assertion

You’ve tried this nonsense before, so you’ll get the same answer. Our species has developed something called logic. Part of logic is rhetorics – ie, argument. Over the centuries various arguments have been identified and codified as wrong. We call these arguments “fallacies”. The only arguments of which I am aware for gods are constructed as one or more of these fallacies. Thus I conclude that – so far at least – I have no sound reason to accept your unqualified assertion “god”.   

Got it now? Good.

It gets worse. You know this already though because at some level of awareness at least you too can identify fallacious arguments. Thus if I were to argue for leprechauns as a fact but used exactly the same arguments to justify the claim that people here make for their gods, you’d quickly and correctly say something like, “that’s a bad argument for leprechauns because it’s a (name of fallacy), so I shall continue to proceed as if leprechauns are not real". 

You could of course fix this (at least in principle) by finally posting an argument for “God” that isn’t constructed as a logical fallacy, but for some reason you’ve never shown any inclination to do so.

Why is that?     
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 05:19:46 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #896 on: June 28, 2020, 05:17:10 PM »
Fairies are little chaps and chapesses with wings no new indigenous animal species have been discovered in this country as far as I know.

They're actually magic, so we wouldn't expect physical evidence. So, where is your argument for fairy-free? All you've given is a lack of a particular reason to believe in them. If you're saying there are no good reasons to believe, that is a positive claim, please provide evidence or reasoning that there are no good reasons.

 ::)
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7990
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #897 on: June 28, 2020, 05:20:38 PM »
Lets see your verifiable evidence for that being the case.

Let us see yours for that not being the case.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #898 on: June 28, 2020, 05:22:10 PM »
Jeez, the fact that you'll do anything rather than actually attempt to supply a reason to believe in your god, is speaking volumes.

When Tegmark plays the banjo
he sure does play it hot
When Tegmark plays the banjo
He gives it all he's got
he goes:
(bouncing banjo instrumental)

Penrose is a real professional
Shout-down jealous man
When he picks of the old banjo
He plays it really grand
When he goes:
(out of key version of "Good King Wenceslaus")
Yeah!
Crowd: UGH!
Penrose (in an apologetic voice): Well I haven't played it for a couple of weeks....

[/quote]

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33190
Re: Does antitheism exist?
« Reply #899 on: June 28, 2020, 05:24:42 PM »
Let us see yours for that not being the case.
I'm not making the case.