Author Topic: Causes and mechanisms  (Read 10641 times)

Sriram

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Causes and mechanisms
« on: June 24, 2020, 07:42:30 AM »
Hi everyone,

Most often, people of science seem to regard mechanisms as causes and are satisfied explaining processes and mechanisms rather than identify causes behind the processes.

It is like explaining the existence of a car only through its mechanisms and ignoring its cause and the purpose for which it is designed.

IMO, while we may not be able to see or identify directly the causes behind Life, evolution and the universe.....it is nevertheless necessary that we realize its importance and try to at least, speculate on its probable nature. 

Here is an article about cosmopsychism....

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.00371/full

***********

"The strength of the novel cosmopsychist paradigm presented here lies in the bridging of the explanatory gap the conventional materialist doctrine struggles with. This is achieved by proposing a comprehensible causal mechanism for the formation of phenomenal states that is deeply rooted in the foundations of the universe.

More specifically, the sort of cosmopsychism we advocate brings a new perspective into play, according to which the structural, functional, and organizational characteristics of the NCC (neural correlates of consciousness) are indicative of the brain’s interaction with and modulation of a UFC (ubiquitous field of consciousness).

From this point of view, consciousness may be causally efficacious and turn out to be the ultimate intrinsic force underlying the dynamic transformations described by physics, thus laying the foundations for a scientifically informed idealist worldview."

***********

Cheers.

Sriram

Outrider

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 09:18:11 AM »
Scientists, when conducting science, are constrained by the fact that the enterprise of science works from evidence, so the farther you go from the observable phenomenon, the less reliable your work is.  Therefore, science is typically restricted to investigating immediate causes.

That said, it's also easy to constrain the idea of 'scientists' and 'science' to the so-called harder sciences of physics, chemistry, geology and the like, but social scientists like sociologists, archaeologists, political scientists and economists put huge amounts of work into examining the more variable and more subtle influences of human behaviour and cultural pressures.

And, lastly, there is an implication in what you've written that there IS a 'cause' behind life and evolution, and not merely a series of incremental steps which ended up producing life but which wasn't at any point an intention.

As to the particulars of the article you've posted, the attempt to hijack sciency-sounding language with the 'ubiquitous field of consciousness' initialism is fine, so long as there is any evidence whatsoever to support the claim - I don't see any in the article.

Then you have the paradox of attempting to use consciousness to explain life when we only have any evidence for consciousness as a consequence of life - again, there'd need to be some demonstration of consciousness independent of something living in order to make the conjecture anything more than deepity.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 05:42:40 AM »
Scientists, when conducting science, are constrained by the fact that the enterprise of science works from evidence, so the farther you go from the observable phenomenon, the less reliable your work is.  Therefore, science is typically restricted to investigating immediate causes.

That said, it's also easy to constrain the idea of 'scientists' and 'science' to the so-called harder sciences of physics, chemistry, geology and the like, but social scientists like sociologists, archaeologists, political scientists and economists put huge amounts of work into examining the more variable and more subtle influences of human behaviour and cultural pressures.

And, lastly, there is an implication in what you've written that there IS a 'cause' behind life and evolution, and not merely a series of incremental steps which ended up producing life but which wasn't at any point an intention.

As to the particulars of the article you've posted, the attempt to hijack sciency-sounding language with the 'ubiquitous field of consciousness' initialism is fine, so long as there is any evidence whatsoever to support the claim - I don't see any in the article.

Then you have the paradox of attempting to use consciousness to explain life when we only have any evidence for consciousness as a consequence of life - again, there'd need to be some demonstration of consciousness independent of something living in order to make the conjecture anything more than deepity.

O.


As I have said before, 'evidence' is not just about something that you can obviously see or feel. Many times it depends on ones perception and perspective.

If the perspective is right, the evidence becomes immediately apparent.  Otherwise it remains hidden from that person just as gravity was 'hidden' from billions of people before Newton.

 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 06:06:37 AM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 07:18:20 AM »

As I have said before, 'evidence' is not just about something that you can obviously see or feel. Many times it depends on ones perception and perspective.

If the perspective is right, the evidence becomes immediately apparent.  Otherwise it remains hidden from that person just as gravity was 'hidden' from billions of people before Newton.

 
Perception is subjective and you can't derive objective truth from subjective experience.  If two people look at the same dress and one sees it as blue and the other sees it as purple, that illustrates that perception is all in the mind and we cannot say anything objective about the colour of the dress.  So, when scientists talk about evidence being objective, this reflects the need to excise merely personal interpretations from any description of fundamental reality.

Sriram

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 07:28:19 AM »
Perception is subjective and you can't derive objective truth from subjective experience.  If two people look at the same dress and one sees it as blue and the other sees it as purple, that illustrates that perception is all in the mind and we cannot say anything objective about the colour of the dress.  So, when scientists talk about evidence being objective, this reflects the need to excise merely personal interpretations from any description of fundamental reality.


When Newton saw the apple fall (if this is true!) he thought of something pulling the apple towards the earth....and came up with gravity. Falling fruits is something billions of people have seen and experienced for centuries. What Newton had was a perception change.

Evidence for gravity was always there but no one saw it the way Newton saw it. This is what I mean by perception and perspective.

There is evidence all around us for lots of things but we need to notice it and make the connection. That is what transforms a normal experience or observation into 'evidence'.

Similarly, there is lot of evidence for Consciousness being fundamental....we just need to notice it and make the connection.

Outrider

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 08:09:21 AM »
As I have said before, 'evidence' is not just about something that you can obviously see or feel. Many times it depends on ones perception and perspective.

Evidence is many things - a survey of opinions can be evidence.  What evidence needs to be, though, is something on which an opinion can be formed, not just an opinion itself.  You appear to want to elevate 'but I feel' to the same standing as a conclusion from the analysis of independent sources.

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If the perspective is right, the evidence becomes immediately apparent.

No, if the conclusion relies on presupposition then the conclusion is unreliable.  The evidence merely is; if you can deduce a conclusion from the evidence without preconception then that's a moderately reliable conclusion (which you then put out to a wider community to have it verified for bias and the like because none of us are perfect).  If you need to qualify your approach with 'you have to already have an inclination towards the conclusion' then your conclusion is not a conclusion, you're just succumbing to confirmation bias.

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Otherwise it remains hidden from that person just as gravity was 'hidden' from billions of people before Newton.

Gravity was not 'hidden' before Newton, people didn't go flying off the planet.  As it was, Newton's laws of gravitation weren't correct - he didn't know that, he only had exposure to situations where they were a close enough approximation that his equations were within the margins of tolerance of the measuring equipment available, but even he was aware that there were issues with his depiction.

IMportantly, though, the reason his work stood up is because despite his profoundly religious sentiments, he didn't go in to the investigation with the presupposition 'God does it'.  He looked at the available phenomena, measured them, considered the implications and deduced a conclusion from the available, independent measurements and concepts.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 11:52:28 AM »

When Newton saw the apple fall (if this is true!) he thought of something pulling the apple towards the earth....and came up with gravity. Falling fruits is something billions of people have seen and experienced for centuries. What Newton had was a perception change.

Evidence for gravity was always there but no one saw it the way Newton saw it. This is what I mean by perception and perspective.

There is evidence all around us for lots of things but we need to notice it and make the connection. That is what transforms a normal experience or observation into 'evidence'.

Similarly, there is lot of evidence for Consciousness being fundamental....we just need to notice it and make the connection.

Newton's chief insight was to see that the same force that pulled an apple towards the Earth was responsible for keeping the planets on their paths through space. What made him a great scientist was that he was then able to formulate a mathematical model based on that insight which could explain known phenomena, simplify the existing model (Kepler's) and make predictions.

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Sriram

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2020, 06:02:22 AM »


Hi all...

That is the problem with microscopic thinking. It becomes all about details and dissection and segregation....missing the overall point all together.

I am not discussing the details of gravitational law or Newton.  I am discussing how Consciousness could be fundamental.

In this connection the issue of evidence came up....and I am of the view that just as it happened with gravity....there could be many more fundamental phenomena that are going unnoticed in spite of evidence being available all around.

That's all it is about.

Cheers.

Sriram

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2020, 08:45:31 AM »
I am not discussing the details of gravitational law or Newton.  I am discussing how Consciousness could be fundamental.

But you're not giving anyone any reasons to think that it might be the case.  Every single instance of consciousness that we're aware of comes out of the existence of a complex neurological system - we don't see consciousness independent of that, we don't see consciousness manifesting in any other situations, and therefore there's absolutely no basis for thinking that consciousness is something more than an emergent property of neurology.

Quote
In this connection the issue of evidence came up....and I am of the view that just as it happened with gravity....there could be many more fundamental phenomena that are going unnoticed in spite of evidence being available all around.

It's possible, yes, but until something is discovered that changes it from a hypothetical future maybe to and actual observation then your idea has exactly as much  merit as 'consciousness is a gift from the invisible pink  unicorn'.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2020, 08:48:00 AM »

Hi all...

That is the problem with microscopic thinking. It becomes all about details and dissection and segregation....missing the overall point all together.

I am not discussing the details of gravitational law or Newton.  I am discussing how Consciousness could be fundamental.

In this connection the issue of evidence came up....and I am of the view that just as it happened with gravity....there could be many more fundamental phenomena that are going unnoticed in spite of evidence being available all around.

That's all it is about.

Cheers.

Sriram

If there was evidence all around for these unnoticed fundamental phenomena, we'd notice them.

You've convinced yourself that certain things exist and the reason that nobody can find evidence for them is that they are somehow searching in the wrong way.

Can you entertain the possibility that, actually, we are searching in the right way and these things you want to exist do not exist?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 08:50:04 AM by jeremyp »
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Enki

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2020, 10:57:54 AM »
If there was evidence all around for these unnoticed fundamental phenomena, we'd notice them.

You've convinced yourself that certain things exist and the reason that nobody can find evidence for them is that they are somehow searching in the wrong way.

Can you entertain the possibility that, actually, we are searching in the right way and these things you want to exist do not exist?

I very much doubt it, Jeremy, although I would love to be proved wrong. Sriram seems to have such a myopic view of things that he finds it hard to entertain anything which conflicts with his own ideas.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2020, 11:48:39 AM »
The fundamental evidence which seems to be ignored or taken for granted is the fact that we are able to think.
What is a thought?
What is the source of your thought?
How are your thoughts defined?
Are your thoughts capable of being manipulated - if so what is the source of manipulation?
What comprises "you"
Are you a biologically controlled machine - or are "you" in control of a biological machine?
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Outrider

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2020, 11:59:03 AM »
The fundamental evidence which seems to be ignored or taken for granted is the fact that we are able to think.

I'm pretty sure no-one has 'overlooked' thought as evidence of consciousness - in order to give credence to Sriram's ideas, though, we'd need to see evidence of thought or consciousness divorced from physical neurology, and that's not been reported to the best of my knowledge.

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What is a thought?

Pattern of electric-chemical activity operating in a neurological framework under hormonal variables.

Quote
What is the source of your thought?

Neurological stimuli in the form of sensory inputs and feedback mechanisms within the neurological architecture.

Quote
How are your thoughts defined?

See above.

Quote
Are your thoughts capable of being manipulated - if so what is the source of manipulation?

Directly, by all sorts of bioelectric effects, and indirectly by manipulation of the various phenomena that the sensory organs convert into neurological stimuli.

Quote
What comprises "you"

The overall pattern of brain activity.

Quote
Are you a biologically controlled machine - or are "you" in control of a biological machine?

We are biologically controlled machines.

O.
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Stranger

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2020, 12:07:26 PM »
That is the problem with microscopic thinking. It becomes all about details and dissection and segregation....missing the overall point all together.

Yes, if you never get to the detail, you can make up any shit you want and nobody can falsify it.

In this connection the issue of evidence came up....and I am of the view that just as it happened with gravity....there could be many more fundamental phenomena that are going unnoticed in spite of evidence being available all around.

Evidence, in the scientific sense, is observations that either confirm or falsify the predictions of a hypothesis. Strictly, in the scientific sense, there was no evidence for Newton's law of gravity until he formulated it and it made predictions (and retrodictions).

The world is the way it is, and identifying patterns in it can lead to new hypotheses, but there is no evidence for them until and unless they are formulated in enough detail to make predictions.
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torridon

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2020, 12:16:03 PM »
The fundamental evidence which seems to be ignored or taken for granted is the fact that we are able to think.
What is a thought?
What is the source of your thought?
How are your thoughts defined?
Are your thoughts capable of being manipulated - if so what is the source of manipulation?
What comprises "you"
Are you a biologically controlled machine - or are "you" in control of a biological machine?

We've covered this to death on the SfG thread.  Thinking is not some inexplicable magic phenomenon.  Thoughts happen, often, we can see that they have some provenance. 'You' and your biological machinery are one and the same thing.  There is not something separate needed to control how your brain functions; what control we exert is the functioning of our brains. We don't have some extra layer of functioning to control the functioning.

Udayana

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2020, 12:29:07 PM »

Always good, from my favourite campus too, with or without hallucinations :)

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality#t-1008791/


 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2020, 12:34:56 PM »
...
In this connection the issue of evidence came up....and I am of the view that just as it happened with gravity....there could be many more fundamental phenomena that are going unnoticed in spite of evidence being available all around.

Yes, actually you are absolutely right, there could be ...

Quote
That's all it is about.

You mean none of the work required, to even discuss such phenomena meaningfully, has been done.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2020, 05:30:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure no-one has 'overlooked' thought as evidence of consciousness - in order to give credence to Sriram's ideas, though, we'd need to see evidence of thought or consciousness divorced from physical neurology, and that's not been reported to the best of my knowledge.

Pattern of electric-chemical activity operating in a neurological framework under hormonal variables.
Such patterns are certainly seen to correlate with conscious thought activity, but alone, they do not explain how such activity can define the conscious thought we all experience.
Quote
Neurological stimuli in the form of sensory inputs and feedback mechanisms within the neurological architecture.
Use of such technical jargon comes nowhere near to explaining the source of conscious thought.
Quote
Directly, by all sorts of bioelectric effects, and indirectly by manipulation of the various phenomena that the sensory organs convert into neurological stimuli.
Which all boils down to physically defined reactions in material elements - so no definable source of manipulation - just the end results of physically defined cause and effect reactions.
Quote
The overall pattern of brain activity.
which reduces whatever comprises "you" to be just the inevitable unavoidable end result of physical reactions
Quote
We are biologically controlled machines.
One day I sincerely hope and pray you will come to realise what comprises the real "you".
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Stranger

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2020, 05:35:09 PM »
Use of such technical jargon comes nowhere near to explaining the source of conscious thought.

It does a great deal better than baseless superstition and self-contradictory magic.    ::)
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Alan Burns

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2020, 05:45:15 PM »
We've covered this to death on the SfG thread.  Thinking is not some inexplicable magic phenomenon.  Thoughts happen, often, we can see that they have some provenance. 'You' and your biological machinery are one and the same thing.  There is not something separate needed to control how your brain functions; what control we exert is the functioning of our brains. We don't have some extra layer of functioning to control the functioning.
But the fact remains that we have the ability to manipulate our thought processes.  Without such manipulative ability, our thoughts would just be inevitable reactions with no means to contemplate and make logical deductions.  You may persist in sticking to your claim that all thoughts are just inevitable reaction, but your ability to consciously make such a claim is evidence that the claim is patently wrong.

The truth is that "you" are the source of your thought manipulation, and as such "you" are able to choose your own destiny.  And "you" can be held to account for the consequences of all your thoughts.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 05:47:21 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 06:02:26 PM »
But the fact remains that we have the ability to manipulate our thought processes.  Without such manipulative ability, our thoughts would just be inevitable reactions with no means to contemplate and make logical deductions.  You may persist in sticking to your claim that all thoughts are just inevitable reaction, but your ability to consciously make such a claim is evidence that the claim is patently wrong.

The truth is that "you" are the source of your thought manipulation, and as such "you" are able to choose your own destiny.  And "you" can be held to account for the consequences of all your thoughts.

There is no sense in which we can 'manipulate' our thoughts in the sense such there is a distinct 'me' somehow separate from the thoughts that 'I' have.  I cannot choose which thoughts should come to mind, I cannot manipulate them in any fundamental way other than by means of other thought processes. To 'choose' which thought to think next would itself be a thought process.  Do you not get this ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2020, 06:02:51 PM »
We've covered this to death on the SfG thread.  Thinking is not some inexplicable magic phenomenon.  Thoughts happen, often, we can see that they have some provenance. 'You' and your biological machinery are one and the same thing.
Isn't 'you' an emergent phenomenon? Can an emergent phenomenon be said to be one and the same thing as that from which it emerges?

Stranger

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2020, 06:28:16 PM »
But the fact remains that we have the ability to manipulate our thought processes.

That doesn't even make sense.

Without such manipulative ability, our thoughts would just be inevitable reactions...

Appeal to consequences fallacy.

...with no means to contemplate and make logical deductions.

Non-sequitur.

You may persist in sticking to your claim that all thoughts are just inevitable reaction, but your ability to consciously make such a claim is evidence that the claim is patently wrong.

Considering how often you've been asked to justify this silly assertion and how often you've failed to do so, this looks a lot like a barefaced lie.

The truth is that "you" are the source of your thought manipulation, and as such "you" are able to choose your own destiny.  And "you" can be held to account for the consequences of all your thoughts.

Foot-stamping.

Are you just going to ignore all the answers you've already had and just repeat your endless nonsensical drivel on this thread now? Your mindless, thought-free repetition really isn't a good advert for your brand of superstition, you do know that, yes?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2020, 06:37:24 PM »
There is no sense in which we can 'manipulate' our thoughts in the sense such there is a distinct 'me' somehow separate from the thoughts that 'I' have.  I cannot choose which thoughts should come to mind, I cannot manipulate them in any fundamental way other than by means of other thought processes. To 'choose' which thought to think next would itself be a thought process.  Do you not get this ?
Of course I can choose what to think.
It is what I do.
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Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Causes and mechanisms
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2020, 06:41:49 PM »
Of course I can choose what to think.
It is what I do.
Infinite regress again.