Author Topic: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?  (Read 4980 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« on: June 29, 2020, 08:02:17 AM »
We know that science is not there to rule out God. But it is often pressed into the service of atheism. How effective are scientific cosmological theories in the service of confirming atheism?

SusanDoris

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2020, 08:22:04 AM »
We know that science is not there to rule out God. But it is often pressed into the service of atheism. How effective are scientific cosmological theories in the service of confirming atheism?
One would have thought by now that you ought to have got the message that science does not try to rule out God. Atheists will probably point out that there is a complete lack of any objective evidence for any god ever and the onus is on those, as always, who believe there is, to produce objective evidence for it.
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Gordon

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2020, 08:28:22 AM »
We know that science is not there to rule out God. But it is often pressed into the service of atheism. How effective are scientific cosmological theories in the service of confirming atheism?

Since 'scientific cosmological theories' deal with, ahem, cosmology I'd say your question is a non sequitur

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2020, 08:32:01 AM »
Since 'scientific cosmological theories' deal with, ahem, cosmology I'd say your question is a non sequitur.
My fear is that the science of cosmology with regard to the origin of the universe.(Cosmogeny) gets stealthily wrapped up in the fallacy of modernity.

Gordon

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2020, 08:38:29 AM »
My fear is that the science of cosmology with regard to the origin of the universe.(Cosmogeny) gets stealthily wrapped up in the fallacy of modernity.

So, are you fearful that impressionable cosmologists are naive and are being unduly influenced by scoundrels: presumably, given the terms you've used, scoundrels who are atheists and who have a modernist outlook?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2020, 08:42:11 AM »
So, are you fearful that impressionable cosmologists are naive and are being unduly influenced by scoundrels: presumably, given the terms you've used, scoundrels who are atheists and who have a modernist outlook?
I was going to say no but when I saw you use the word scoundrel I changed that to a yes.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2020, 08:43:08 AM »
One would have thought by now that you ought to have got the message that science does not try to rule out God. Atheists will probably point out that there is a complete lack of any objective evidence for any god ever and the onus is on those, as always, who believe there is, to produce objective evidence for it.
I made it clear that science isn't there to rule out God in the opening post. I am talking about atheists who refer to science when making atheist or antitheist pronouncements.
Eg Dawkins and Krauss and to a far lesser extent Carroll

Gordon

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2020, 09:16:20 AM »
I was going to say no but when I saw you use the word scoundrel I changed that to a yes.

Interesting: so, would you say that established scoundrels who are scientists are invariably attracted to atheism, or is it more the case that becoming an atheist is a one-way ticket to Scoundrel-hood Central for established scientists? 

P.S. You presumably realise I'm taking the piss - just as, presumably, you were when you posted the OP of this thread.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2020, 09:34:20 AM »
Interesting: so, would you say that established scoundrels who are scientists are invariably attracted to atheism, or is it more the case that becoming an atheist is a one-way ticket to Scoundrel-hood Central for established scientists? 

P.S. You presumably realise I'm taking the piss - just as, presumably, you were when you posted the OP of this thread.
Funnily enough I see science becoming less harnessed by atheists. For instance either i've mellowed or Sean Carroll has and PZ Myers has dissociated himself from New Atheism. So I guess i'm talking about the usual suspects

However there are two fields which are still harnessed to the cause by dyed in the wool atheists, neurology and Cosmology.

There are I think still lay non scientists who are heavily into scientism. So what I would like to here from them is how good are cosmological theories at ruling out God.

Gordon

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2020, 09:38:59 AM »
Funnily enough I see science becoming less harnessed by atheists. For instance either i've mellowed or Sean Carroll has and PZ Myers has dissociated himself from New Atheism. So I guess i'm talking about the usual suspects

However there are two fields which are still harnessed to the cause by dyed in the wool atheists, neurology and Cosmology.

There are I think still lay non scientists who are heavily into scientism. So what I would like to here from them is how good are cosmological theories at ruling out God.

That would only happen though if you first defined 'God' in ways that allowed that definition to be falsified by cosmological theories - and from what I can see those who advance the notion of 'God' simply don't have, or maybe don't want, a definition of 'God' that could be falsifiable given the risks that would involve for their faith.
 

Outrider

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2020, 09:39:15 AM »
Funnily enough I see science becoming less harnessed by atheists. For instance either i've mellowed or Sean Carroll has and PZ Myers has dissociated himself from New Atheism. So I guess i'm talking about the usual suspects

However there are two fields which are still harnessed to the cause by dyed in the wool atheists, neurology and Cosmology.

I'd suggest that, actually, the other fields are where the evidence and scientific conclusions are no so deeply set that the religious don't bother trying to pick those fights; however, there are still believers out there trying to make claims about the origins of the universe and the nature of consciousness because they feel, for whatever reason, that scientific accounts without god written into them are the antithesis of their faith/spritituality/religion.  It's not science that's picking these battlegrounds, it's that the religious/spiritual are still contesting in those areas whereas they're more inclined, these days, to leave the likes of evolution alone.

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There are I think still lay non scientists who are heavily into scientism.

Indeed, some of them are likely almost as agitated about it as you are - as soon as we see some scientismists blowing themselves up for the cause I'll start to worry.

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So what I would like to here from them is how good are cosmological theories at ruling out God.

Pretty effective, or believers wouldn't be worried about it enough to keep attacking it?  Not that the science itself rules it out, obviously, but some religious people appear to feel as though it does.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2020, 09:50:03 AM »
That would only happen though if you first defined 'God' in ways that allowed that definition to be falsified by cosmological theories - and from what I can see those who advance the notion of 'God' simply don't have, or maybe don't want, a definition of 'God' that could be falsifiable given the risks that would involve for their faith.
New atheism hasn't agreed with you for nigh on 18 years Gordon, quoting science in it's mission to turn the world atheist from the get go. There are even books on the subject......almost anything by Dawkins, Krausses Universe from nothing. This ''we won't attack God until he is defined'' schtick is either an exclusive form of atheism or an evolution of atheism ''we'll weeeeee aren't even deigning to talk to theists'', an aberration, a moderation or a combination of some or all of these.

My faith is established by experience Gordon and without a positive atheist input it's unlikely to change is it Gordon.

The trouble with scientific cosmological theories in the service of atheism is, at the end of the day they are not atheist except in the sense that science doesn't do God.

Roses

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2020, 10:24:46 AM »
New atheism hasn't agreed with you for nigh on 18 years Gordon, quoting science in it's mission to turn the world atheist from the get go. There are even books on the subject......almost anything by Dawkins, Krausses Universe from nothing. This ''we won't attack God until he is defined'' schtick is either an exclusive form of atheism or an evolution of atheism ''we'll weeeeee aren't even deigning to talk to theists'', an aberration, a moderation or a combination of some or all of these.

My faith is established by experience Gordon and without a positive atheist input it's unlikely to change is it Gordon.

The trouble with scientific cosmological theories in the service of atheism is, at the end of the day they are not atheist except in the sense that science doesn't do God.

Science doesn't do fairies either.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2020, 10:34:00 AM »
I'd suggest that, actually, the other fields are where the evidence and scientific conclusions are no so deeply set that the religious don't bother trying to pick those fights;
Being of a mainstream british church background via agnostic atheism I would say that by and large we had made our peace with science a long time ago. Of course new people come along. So from my point of view it is in fact the Dawkinses and the Krausses who have stoked up the fires of the war between religion and science.
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   However, there are still believers out there trying to make claims about the origins of the universe and the nature of consciousness because they feel, for whatever reason, that scientific accounts without god written into them are the antithesis of their faith/spritituality/religion.
There are but I see that as a North American phenomenon rather than necessarily religious. On the other hand I find the exaggeration of the war between science and religion to be heavily influenced by people like Harris and Dillahunty but chiefly by transatlantics such as Hitchens and Dawkins. In other words Dawkins carried his Gospel to the states and brought it's fruitfulness back here''
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  It's not science that's picking these battlegrounds, it's that the religious/spiritual are still contesting in those areas whereas they're more inclined, these days, to leave the likes of evolution alone.
Again we cannot ignore the deliberate achievements of Dawkins, Krauss etc stoking this up in fact Dawkins apparently encouraged Harris into neuroscience. I recall someone at the New Scientist calling him the Father of Religious Neuroscience. If that doesn't sound like a ''parachuting in of New atheism'' I don't know what does. So I guess it's not science or religion picking battles picking a battle it's both religious experts saying they don't have to know about science to
attack it because they have scripture and atheists who say we can do without religion because we have science.
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Indeed, some of them are likely almost as agitated about it as you are - as soon as we see some scientismists blowing themselves up for the cause I'll start to worry.
I'm interested in whether you arrived at the Alf Garnett like conclusion that all religious people are swivel eyed maniacs or were influenced by Richard Dawkins now noted for his Garnettian attitudes to religion?
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Pretty effective, or believers wouldn't be worried about it enough to keep attacking it?
So you feel that questioning atheists about the scope and utility of science is an attack on science? I'm not afraid of it. as I said I made my peace with science a while back and as a Christian where I believe God wanted me to explore new avenues but ignoring what i'd learned in science was not on the menu. I have the confidence therefore to allow myself to discuss science with people of a different persuasion and hopefully learn about science from them and since they are modern atheists ask them how science in regards to cosmology supports atheism.
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  Not that the science itself rules it out, obviously, but some religious people appear to feel as though it does.

O.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 10:36:08 AM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

Gordon

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2020, 10:40:53 AM »
New atheism hasn't agreed with you for nigh on 18 years Gordon, quoting science in it's mission to turn the world atheist from the get go. There are even books on the subject......almost anything by Dawkins, Krausses Universe from nothing.

You do tend to go nuclear at the least provocation, Vlad: that, for example, the idea of there being a planet-wide global flood as depicted in the Bible is not supported by evidence is not an example of science deciding to deliberately undermine religious beliefs, and is simply the case that new information indicates that if the Biblical claim of a global flood is read as factual history then it has been shown to be wrong
.
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This ''we won't attack God until he is defined'' schtick is either an exclusive form of atheism or an evolution of atheism ''we'll weeeeee aren't even deigning to talk to theists'', an aberration, a moderation or a combination of some or all of these.

If you can't define your terms but insist your proposition is taken seriously then you can expect to be criticised for that, and if you do define your terms you can expect scrutiny of these terms and what follows regarding the robustness of what has been defined - and I can't see why that should be a problem.

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My faith is established by experience Gordon and without a positive atheist input it's unlikely to change is it Gordon.

No idea: since your internal personal feelings about personal experiences are just that.

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The trouble with scientific cosmological theories in the service of atheism is, at the end of the day they are not atheist except in the sense that science doesn't do God.

I'd say that scientific cosmological theories have been developed in the service of knowledge, and not only do they not do 'God' they also don't do literary criticism either - you're kite-flying again.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2020, 10:41:38 AM »
Science doesn't do fairies either.
It doesn't do the cha cha and that exists.
Whenever we decide fairies probably don't exist. it's an act of science. Can the same be said of deciding God doesn't exist?
You do tend to go nuclear at the least provocation, Vlad: that, for example, the idea of there being a planet-wide global flood as depicted in the Bible is not supported by evidence is not an example of science deciding to deliberately undermine religious beliefs, and is simply the case that new information indicates that if the Biblical claim of a global flood is read as factual history then it has been shown to be wrong
.
I think we can agree that not everyone is a Dawkins or Biblical literalist.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 10:46:46 AM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

Roses

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2020, 11:37:33 AM »
It doesn't do the cha cha and that exists.
Whenever we decide fairies probably don't exist. it's an act of science. Can the same be said of deciding God doesn't exist? I think we can agree that not everyone is a Dawkins or Biblical literalist.

As there is no more evidence to support the existence of god than there is for the existence of fairies it is unlikely to exist. The god of the Bible is far less than credible.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2020, 11:40:35 AM »
As there is no more evidence to support the existence of god than there is for the existence of fairies it is unlikely to exist. The god of the Bible is far less than credible.
Science doesn't do God but every time you say there probably aren't tiny people with wings that is based on empirical observation or lack of it. 

Roses

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2020, 11:43:26 AM »
Science doesn't do God but every time you say there probably aren't tiny people with wings that is based on empirical observation or lack of it.

Similarly lack of belief in a god is based on a lack of empirical observation. As I have asked so many times, if god exists why does it hide away?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2020, 11:58:48 AM »
Vlad,

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We know that science is not there to rule out God. But it is often pressed into the service of atheism. How effective are scientific cosmological theories in the service of confirming atheism?

Oh dear. Oftentimes religions used to or still make explanatory claims about the universe – that the universe was a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water with heaven above and an underworld below, that Adam & Eve were the first humans (and that Eve was made from one of Adam’s ribs) etc. What cosmology and other branches of science do is to provide more plausible explanations for the phenomena we observe.

The only time these findings are “pressed into the service of atheism” is when the religious seek to justify their beliefs by persisting with less plausible explanatory claims.

You may as well ask how effective modern meteorology is in confirming a-Thorism.     
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2020, 12:05:26 PM »
Similarly lack of belief in a god is based on a lack of empirical observation. As I have asked so many times, if god exists why does it hide away?
But God isn't proposed as having empirical features but I'm glad you have decided to reveal what you consider evidence when others have beat about the bush.

He ''hides away'' empirically because he is not empirical.
As I have said to others. He is proposed as the necessary being out of the universe. He is not material as we know it because he is responsible for the existence of material which appears to be contingent.

Now I suppose an argument could be made for the universe itself to be necessary but wait, what is it in the universe that is necessary and not contingent, namely dependent on something else?

We do not observe such things. It's then fair to conclude that whatever is the necessity whether it be God or something else inside the universe, it remains empirically hidden perhaps because it is not empirical.

People meet God as spirit, as holiness, and people react to that in various ways.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 12:13:03 PM by Your friendly illusion of self. »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2020, 12:15:46 PM »
Vlad,

Oh dear. Oftentimes religions used to or still make explanatory claims about the universe – that the universe was a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water with heaven above and an underworld below, that Adam & Eve were the first humans (and that Eve was made from one of Adam’s ribs) etc. What cosmology and other branches of science do is to provide more plausible explanations for the phenomena we observe.

The only time these findings are “pressed into the service of atheism” is when the religious seek to justify their beliefs by persisting with less plausible explanatory claims.

You may as well ask how effective modern meteorology is in confirming a-Thorism.   
Adam and Eve or humanity are not the universe nor the subject of cosmology except minutely perhaps.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2020, 12:24:16 PM »
Vlad,

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Adam and Eve or humanity are not the universe nor the subject of cosmology except minutely perhaps.

Whoosh!
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2020, 12:32:25 PM »
Vlad,

Whoosh!
Is that you opening your bottle of Tizer?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How good are scientific cosmology at ruling out God?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2020, 12:34:04 PM »
Vlad,

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Is that you opening your bottle of Tizer?

No, it's the sound of you missing the point.
"Don't make me come down there."

God