Face masks - the case against

[SteveH]

Don't jump down my throat - I'm only posting the link without comment.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435/rr-40?fbclid=IwAR2Zz_t0UuLbyBVnNWDo3NPNt1wb0VC21bXCnBibB91v93FnXMl8gw0qcsY

[Roses]

I think it is safer to wear one than not, but one has to remember that it isn't likely to give one 100% protection.

[jeremyp]

I think it is safer to wear one than not, but one has to remember that it isn't likely to give one 100% protection.

Have you read the article? It lists several possible side effects that might make wearing a mask more dangerous than not.

As it happens, I'm pretty concerned that plenty of otherwise rational people, particularly in the USA, look on face masks as a silver bullet.

[Aruntraveller]

Thanks for posting that, Mr Micawber.

I've now got to rethink, in light of that, exactly what to do when I go shopping next week.

[jeremyp]

Thanks for posting that, Mr Micawber.

I've now got to rethink, in light of that, exactly what to do when I go shopping next week.

I went shopping yesterday. I didn't wear a mask, but then I'm 99.99% certain I don't have COVID19. I didn't interact with any other human beings except briefly with the person overseeing the Smart Shop tills and the person manning the till in the local shop. In the latter case, there was a massive perspex screen that would have been more effective than any face mask.

Remember that wearing a facemask is to protect other people from you. If you don't put yourself in the position of infecting somebody else, they aren't necessary. I would say wear one if you are in a position where you can't properly social distance. Most large supermarkets are not a problem in that respect: just walking past somebody without stopping to chat isn't going to infect them.

[Roses]

The benefits of wearing a mask outweigh the risks, imo. I also wear a pair of surgical gloves when shopping.

[Nearly Sane]

The benefits of wearing a mask outweigh the risks, imo. I also wear a pair of surgical gloves when shopping.

Putting 'imo' doesn't really advance the discussion though. Why is it your opinion and why do you think the arguments covered against masks are wrong?

[Roses]

I have read the article and will continue to wear my face mask, end of story.

[Nearly Sane]

I have read the article and will continue to wear my face mask, end of story.

Again, you are not making any argument. It's even less of an attempt to have a discussion than Alan Burns.

[Roses]

Again, you are not making any argument. It's even less of an attempt to have a discussion than Alan Burns.

Stuff the argument, I personally feel safer wearing a mask and that is all that matters to me. If I am wrong and screw up, on my own head be it.

[Nearly Sane]

Stuff the argument, I personally feel safer wearing a mask and that is all that matters to me. If I am wrong and screw up, on my own head be it.

Facts bad!

[Aruntraveller]

Stuff the argument, I personally feel safer wearing a mask and that is all that matters to me. If I am wrong and screw up, on my own head be it.

LR, that really isn't good enough. I wear a mask when out because the evidence I had seen thus far suggested that was the safest thing to do. Now there is some new evidence that suggests the advantages may be outweighed by previously unknown disadvantages, surely it is sensible to look again at our actions in light of the new evidence.

I may, or may not change my behaviour, but I am at least going to give it some thought.

[SteveH]

I think that there is probably a net benefit to wearing masks, and have just bought some re-usable ones, but clearly it's not as simple as many people think. Interesting that the letter mentions risk-compensation, as also with bike helmets.

[SweetPea]

Thank-you for the article, Wilkins Micawber. These are some of the reasons why I have not worn a mask throughout this pandemic. They are as much 'common-sense' reasons as the reasons to wear a mask. One of my main concerns is the breathing-in of your exhaled co2, be it only a little but I've read reports of people experiencing headaches since having to wear a mask.

Also, I may have had a mild form of Covid-19 at the beginning of February when I had many of the systems: an incessant cough and a temperature and feeling poorly enough to take to my bed. It was very strange - I started to feel better and then went down again. All-in-all I was unwell for nearly 3 weeks.

So, this too gives me confidence that I may have some kind of immunity to the virus and should not be able to pass anything on to someone else. It would be good to be tested though for clarification.

[jeremyp]

LR, that really isn't good enough. I wear a mask when out because the evidence I had seen thus far suggested that was the safest thing to do. Now there is some new evidence that suggests the advantages may be outweighed by previously unknown disadvantages, surely it is sensible to look again at our actions in light of the new evidence.

I may, or may not change my behaviour, but I am at least going to give it some thought.

It’s not new and it’s not evidence. The possible objections in the letter have been known since the start of the pandemic. It’s part of the reason why the government started off by saying mask wearing was not advised.

It’s not evidence, at least the points in the linked letter are not evidence, they are hypotheses. They are possible reasons why the counter intuitive idea that mask wearing might be more dangerous than not wearing a mask might be true. I do not know what studies have been done to back up or refute the hypotheses.

[SteveH]

Putting 'imo' doesn't really advance the discussion though. Why is it your opinion and why do you think the arguments covered against masks are wrong?

"Imo" is what serves in LR's case for facts and logical arguments. 
In any case, LR, no-one is trying to persuade you or anyone else not to wear masks. The link simply points out that it's more complicated than it seems.

[Spud]

I've tried to avoid wearing a mask as much as possible, but today had to sit for an hour with one on. I recall that as soon as the rule about masks in ships and enclosed spaces came into effect, the number of cases of coronavirus started to increase. The masks may prevent me spreading germs bit it also makes sure any germs already in us have a better opportunity to reproduce, in my opinion.

[Aruntraveller]

I've tried to avoid wearing a mask as much as possible, but today had to sit for an hour with one on. I recall that as soon as the rule about masks in ships and enclosed spaces came into effect, the number of cases of coronavirus started to increase. The masks may prevent me spreading germs bit it also makes sure any germs already in us have a better opportunity to reproduce, in my opinion.

There only appeared to be a correlation because of the lag between infection and symptoms. As to preventing germs spreading, if you think you have the infection you shouldn't be going out anyway, so no need for a mask.

[Spud]

There only appeared to be a correlation because of the lag between infection and symptoms. As to preventing germs spreading, if you think you have the infection you shouldn't be going out anyway, so no need for a mask.

We're infectious before symptoms start, so people will go out not knowing they have the virus, and infect others if they don't socially distance. I checked the dates - masks were enforced from 24 July. At that time cases were hovering around 700 per day. On 9 August the case number went above 1,000, so two weeks after masks enforced. I'm not saying there is definitely a link, but the stats look to me as though they would support a link.

[Aruntraveller]

We're infectious before symptoms start, so people will go out not knowing they have the virus, and infect others if they don't socially distance. I checked the dates - masks were enforced from 24 July. At that time cases were hovering around 700 per day. On 9 August the case number went above 1,000, so two weeks after masks enforced. I'm not saying there is definitely a link, but the stats look to me as though they would support a link.

They don't.

[jeremyp]

We're infectious before symptoms start, so people will go out not knowing they have the virus, and infect others if they don't socially distance. I checked the dates - masks were enforced from 24 July. At that time cases were hovering around 700 per day. On 9 August the case number went above 1,000, so two weeks after masks enforced. I'm not saying there is definitely a link, but the stats look to me as though they would support a link.

Correlation is not causation.

It's much more likely to be the relaxed social distancing rules that is causing the current increase in infections.

[Spud]

Correlation is not causation.

It's much more likely to be the relaxed social distancing rules that is causing the current increase in infections.

The face masks may not be causing infections but they don't seem to be preventing them either.

[Owlswing]

The face masks may not be causing infections but they don't seem to be preventing them either.

I have yet to see any figures published that show how many cases diagnosed relate to mask-wearers and how many to those disregarding the rules on wearing masks.

To me, logically, until this is done neither argument, either for or against. would seem to be in any way valid!

[Outrider]

I have yet to see any figures published that show how many cases diagnosed relate to mask-wearers and how many to those disregarding the rules on wearing masks.

To me, logically, until this is done neither argument, either for or against. would seem to be in any way valid!

Unfortunately, given what the masks are for, that's not going to be a useful measurement - you wearing the mask isn't intended to stop you catching the virus, so to equate mask-wearing individuals with individuals infected says nothing about the effectiveness as a preventive measure.

What might be a useful measure to some extent is an assessment of what proportion of an area's population are regularly wearing masks in public places plotted against the infection rate in that area, but it would be very difficult to account for the innumerable social and cultural variations between such areas.

O.

[SteveH]

Unfortunately, given what the masks are for, that's not going to be a useful measurement - you wearing the mask isn't intended to stop you catching the virus, so to equate mask-wearing individuals with individuals infected says nothing about the effectiveness as a preventive measure.

What might be a useful measure to some extent is an assessment of what proportion of an area's population are regularly wearing masks in public places plotted against the infection rate in that area, but it would be very difficult to account for the innumerable social and cultural variations between such areas.

O.

If a mask protects other people from my germs, I fail to see how it can fail to protect me from other people's germs. If it forms an effective barrier in one direction, why doesn't it in the other direction?