Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?

[Owlswing]

Considering the number of people murdered, massacred, quietly disposed of, tortured, maimed in the name of Christianity, in all its forms, would it not take a miracle for anti-theism NOT to exist! 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Considering the number of people murdered, massacred, quietly disposed of, tortured, maimed in the name of Christianity, in all its forms, would it not take a miracle for anti-theism NOT to exist!

Christianity is not theism, Your description of Christianity is a caricature. Other Gods are available but YOU KNOW THAT don't you.

[Outrider]

Your description of Christianity is a caricature.

Is it? Has Christianity, at various points, not been used to justify the murder, massacre, disenfranchisement, torture and maiming of various people around the world, in large- and small-scale incidents, and the widespread lack of interest from various populations in the conducting of those acts?  Various wars, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the Holocaust, Jim Crow era lynchings... I will quite happily accept that these are not in any way representative of your take on what Christianity should be, but the problem is that there is no definitive 'Christianity', there's just the manifestation of the behaviour of those who claim to do what they do in the name of that god.

Other Gods are available but YOU KNOW THAT don't you.

Are they, though?  Are they really?  Other religions are certainly available, yes. Other gods? Or, indeed, any...

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is it? Has Christianity, at various points, not been used to justify the murder, massacre, disenfranchisement, torture and maiming of various people around the world, in large- and small-scale incidents, and the widespread lack of interest from various populations in the conducting of those acts?  Various wars, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the Holocaust, Jim Crow era lynchings... I will quite happily accept that these are not in any way representative of your take on what Christianity should be, but the problem is that there is no definitive 'Christianity', there's just the manifestation of the behaviour of those who claim to do what they do in the name of that god.

I'm looking at these and asking myself could they have happened if Christianity had not existed and I'm getting a resounding yes, they could.

Was Christianity instrumental in moderating that system of official abuse that was Rome. Yes, it was....And yet  we have a New Atheist A.Grayling bleating that the cultural achievements of the Glory that was Rome was destroyed by Christianity.

Such are the people you've allowed yourself to be whipped into a frenzy by.

You have a caricature view of Christianity too.

[Owlswing]

Was Christianity instrumental in moderating that system of official abuse that was Rome? Yes, it was...And yet  we have a New Atheist A.Grayling bleating that the cultural achievements of the Glory that was Rome was destroyed by Christianity

You are surely joking! The Christian Church replaced the dictatorship of the Emperors of Rome with the dictatorship of the Popes!

OH, to start with, in the beginning, they were not called Popes but that is what the heads of the ROMAN Catholic church became, just as big a bunch of murderous bastards as the Caesars and ruling from the same city.

The crowned heads of Europe were subservient to the Popes for centuries, they did nothing without the Pope's approval or Orders.

 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are surely joking! The Christian Church replaced the dictatorship of the Emperors of Rome with the dictatorship of the Popes!

OH, to start with, in the beginning, they were not called Popes but that is what the heads of the ROMAN Catholic church became, just as big a bunch of murderous bastards as the Caesars and ruling from the same city.

The crowned heads of Europe were subservient to the Popes for centuries,

I think an awful lot of dynastic history occurred irrespective of the popes. Religion was never very big in England except perhaps the Seventeenth century

they did nothing without the Pope's approval or Orders.

Canterbury recently celebrated an important anniversary of the killing of Becket by Henry 2nd so what you say isn't true.

While Popes were often corrupt they never had the personal power of the Emperors also Abuse of men and women rife in Rome. I don't recall the Popes having Gladiators and the like.

[Owlswing]

I think an awful lot of dynastic history occurred irrespective of the popes. Religion was never very big in England except perhaps the Seventeenth century Canterbury recently celebrated an important anniversary of the killing of Becket by Henry 2nd so what you say isn't true.

While Popes were often corrupt they never had the personal power of the Emperors also Abuse of men and women rife in Rome. I don't recall the Popes having Gladiators and the like.

No, they had the torture chambers of the Inquisition!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, they had the torture chambers of the Inquisition!

Indeed they did, It wasn't mass entertainment though.

[Owlswing]

Indeed they did, It wasn't mass entertainment though.

It was if you were an Inquisitor!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Indeed they did, It wasn't mass entertainment though.

So that's all right then...must have been so comforting for the brutally tortured to know they weren't part of a performance.

[SteveH]

Considering the number of people murdered, massacred, quietly disposed of, tortured, maimed in the name of Christianity, in all its forms, would it not take a miracle for anti-theism NOT to exist!

Of course, officially atheistical countries, such as North Korea, are earthly paradises. All the things you mention are just human nature, and will happen anywhere, in the name of whatever the prevailing ideology is. Otoh, Christianity pretty much invented the nursing profession; modern representative democracy arose exclusively in Christian countries; Christian countries were the first to abolish slavery; until the secular welfare state arrived, the welfare state was the church; and there are, and have been for centuries, Christian charities doing a huge amount of good.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

So that's all right then...must have been so comforting for the brutally tortured to know they weren't part of a performance.

No it isn't but torture and violent death as cultural adhesive is a sure sign of cultural depravity aka The glory that was Rome.
Christianity helped overturn that.

[Gordon]

No it isn't but torture and violent death as cultural adhesive is a sure sign of cultural depravity aka The glory that was Rome.
Christianity helped overturn that.

So why were the wrong types of Christians being regularly burned at the stake by other Christians in the 16th century (and don't forget to watch out for the Spanish Inquisition, whom nobody expects)?

[Outrider]

I'm looking at these and asking myself could they have happened if Christianity had not existed and I'm getting a resounding yes, they could.

Right.  But did they happen there, then, because of Christianity? Yes.

Was Christianity instrumental in moderating that system of official abuse that was Rome.

And was it equally as instrumental in implementing the gross corruption that was the Papal authority of the 15th to 17th centuries?  Was it equally as instrumental in the bloodletting of the Crusades? Was it equally as instrumental in the systematic attempts to subjugate and harass the Jewish people that culminated in the Holocaust?

And yet  we have a New Atheist A.Grayling bleating that the cultural achievements of the Glory that was Rome was destroyed by Christianity.

Suggesting that, perhaps, the Christian era threw out the baby with the bathwater... Rome had undoubted failings from economic, cultural and ethical standpoints, but it was open in ways that the ensuing Christendom wasn't.  You can bemoan what was lost and what was destroyed whilst accepting that there were valid reasons for it to occur and also whilst thinking that what replaced it wasn't that great either.

Such are the people you've allowed yourself to be whipped into a frenzy by.

No frenzy here - frenzied people do things like blow up buildings, like that incredibly long list of anti-theist suicide bombers...

You have a caricature view of Christianity too.

So you have said, yet you've not actually refuted what I've said, you've just agreed with me that it's not all bad.

O.

[Outrider]

Of course, officially atheistical countries, such as North Korea, are earthly paradises.

That's sort of the point - totalitarian systems which tell you what you're supposed to think instead of inviting you to think are problematic.  Whether it's legal - China up until recently, USSR, Malaysia - or cultural - US, the middle-East - systems which oblige you to conform to predetermined ways of thinking build internal pressure and that causes issues.  That's why you can have countries which either don't take or don't enforce a stance - most of the Scandinavian countries, for instance - and they simply don't have these issues.

All the things you mention are just human nature, and will happen anywhere, in the name of whatever the prevailing ideology is.

Aren't religions, though, supposed to be moderating that human nature - and yet we see the countries that are best at rising above those baser instincts are typically the least religious.

Otoh, Christianity pretty much invented the nursing profession;

Nursing has emerged pretty much everywhere humanity has been - it existed before Christianity was a concept, it existed after the times of Jesus in place Christianity hadn't reached.  The formal, professional western depiction is of Christian origin, yes, but that's because it emerged in an overwhelmingly Christian culture where Christian leadership laid claim to anything and everything - Nursing is much 'part of human nature' as the violence and bloodshed that you tried to liberate Christian philosophy from just a short paragraph ago.

modern representative democracy arose exclusively in Christian countries;

Yet democracy was a development that predated Christianity; Christianity implemented a misogynistic, racist, ableist democracy that post-Enlightenment rationalists have modified and updated.  Modern western representative democracy emerged out of earlier, Christian systems which themselves emerged from earlier pagan systems.

Christian countries were the first to abolish slavery;

And also amongst the last.  And amongst those the implemented it most severely, most widely, and on an industrial scale.

until the secular welfare state arrived, the welfare state was the church

Until the secular state arrived, the state was the church, and the wealth was the church, and the authority (and it was a jealous authority) was the church - there were no other options.

and there are, and have been for centuries, Christian charities doing a huge amount of good.

Undoubtedly.  And there have been Christian organisations doing irreparable harm - the KKK.  And there have been Christian organisations with a checkered track record - the Roman Catholic Church, the Salvation Army.  It's almost like 'Christianity' is no guarantee of anything except an attempt to accumulate power and authority and wealth and influence - when they are coupled with well-meaning people, that's fine, but when they fall into the hands of authoritarian racists, sexists, homophobes and the like it's an invitation for abuse, and the totalitarian nature of religion lends itself to that abuse spreading.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Right.  But did they happen there, then, because of Christianity? Yes.

And was it equally as instrumental in implementing the gross corruption that was the Papal authority of the 15th to 17th centuries?  Was it equally as instrumental in the bloodletting of the Crusades? Was it equally as instrumental in the systematic attempts to subjugate and harass the Jewish people that culminated in the Holocaust?

Suggesting that, perhaps, the Christian era threw out the baby with the bathwater... Rome had undoubted failings from economic, cultural and ethical standpoints, but it was open in ways that the ensuing Christendom wasn't.  You can bemoan what was lost and what was destroyed whilst accepting that there were valid reasons for it to occur and also whilst thinking that what replaced it wasn't that great either.

No frenzy here - frenzied people do things like blow up buildings, like that incredibly long list of anti-theist suicide bombers...

So you have said, yet you've not actually refuted what I've said, you've just agreed with me that it's not all bad.

O.

I would say they happened because of a lack of faith. Certainly a suspension of Jesus words "My kingdom is not of this world".
This is why theocracies never work.

But there is also dynastic ambition, National willy waving happening as well. Dont forget the Vatican did not have massive armies and people were moved by the will of a few kings and Lords.


This is why in the reformation the move was back to scripture and making that the benchmark. There are no armies of God in the NT merely the story of beleaguered Israelites and an early christianity existing precariously in a powerful and ruthless pagan empire. Out of this denominations sprang up religion becomes more personal. Work ethic then unfortunately a focus on material things both socially and philosophically.

[Outrider]

I would say they happened because of a lack of faith.

Really?  All those Catholic Germans lacked faith which made them take the purported enemies of their faith and attempt to exterminate them because they didn't believe hard enough?

Certainly a suspension of Jesus words "My kingdom is not of this world".

That's the part of the story that you consider important - they appear to have put their faith in other parts.

This is why theocracies never work.

Because there's nothing concrete or reliable in the stories on which to base your authoritarianism which leaves you at the mercy of whichever authoritarian makes it to the top... I'd agree, the coupling of inherent authoritarianism and a lack of any reliable information is a bad recipe.

But there is also dynastic ambition, National willy waving happening as well.

Humans have a tendency towards tribalism - religion feeds that, this is why so many nations have historically had official religions, the two go hand in hand.

Dont forget the Vatican did not have massive armies and people were moved by the will of a few kings and Lords.

The Vatican had money and political influence through the church to manipulate those kings and countries.

This is why in the reformation the move was back to scripture and making that the benchmark.

And from that we get the perfectly peacable and lovely protestant organisations like the KKK.

There are no armies of God in the NT merely the story of beleaguered Israelites and an early christianity existing precariously in a powerful and ruthless pagan empire.

They had to rewrite the Old Testament narrative because the armies they'd had were no longer - they adapted their tactics to suit their new situation, this wasn't a moral move to a more accurate depiction of god, it was a fading power starting theocratic guerilla-warfare philosophy because olden-times bombast had failed them.

Out of this denominations sprang up religion becomes more personal. Work ethic then unfortunately a focus on material things both socially and philosophically.

That it has failed to bring about a Utopia is not a killer blow, it's dealing with humanity; that it has been adopted and mingled into a culture where it promotes/has become associated with venality and material wealth may not be intrinsic but it suggests it's not robust enough to resist those influences.

However, the worst excesses of Christendom are not the protestant work ethic, nor the shift towards materialism that is arguably part of that feedback circle, it's the institutionalised dehumanising of the 'other', whether that other is (at different times and in different places) women, gays, Jews, other ethnicities...  Religion is by its nature tribal and totalitarian, and that combination inevitably results in the persecution of others.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's sort of the point - totalitarian systems which tell you what you're supposed to think instead of inviting you to think are problematic.  Whether it's legal - China up until recently, USSR, Malaysia - or cultural - US, the middle-East - systems which oblige you to conform to predetermined ways of thinking build internal pressure and that causes issues.  That's why you can have countries which either don't take or don't enforce a stance - most of the Scandinavian countries, for instance - and they simply don't have these issues.

Aren't religions, though, supposed to be moderating that human nature - and yet we see the countries that are best at rising above those baser instincts are typically the least religious.

Nursing has emerged pretty much everywhere humanity has been - it existed before Christianity was a concept, it existed after the times of Jesus in place Christianity hadn't reached.  The formal, professional western depiction is of Christian origin, yes, but that's because it emerged in an overwhelmingly Christian culture where Christian leadership laid claim to anything and everything - Nursing is much 'part of human nature' as the violence and bloodshed that you tried to liberate Christian philosophy from just a short paragraph ago.

Yet democracy was a development that predated Christianity; Christianity implemented a misogynistic, racist, ableist democracy that post-Enlightenment rationalists have modified and updated.  Modern western representative democracy emerged out of earlier, Christian systems which themselves emerged from earlier pagan systems.

And also amongst the last.  And amongst those the implemented it most severely, most widely, and on an industrial scale.

Until the secular state arrived, the state was the church, and the wealth was the church, and the authority (and it was a jealous authority) was the church - there were no other options.

Undoubtedly.  And there have been Christian organisations doing irreparable harm - the KKK.  And there have been Christian organisations with a checkered track record - the Roman Catholic Church, the Salvation Army.  It's almost like 'Christianity' is no guarantee of anything except an attempt to accumulate power and authority and wealth and influence - when they are coupled with well-meaning people, that's fine, but when they fall into the hands of authoritarian racists, sexists, homophobes and the like it's an invitation for abuse, and the totalitarian nature of religion lends itself to that abuse spreading.

O.

I get the feeling you are a type of person who conflated everything bad with Christianity.

I think McCawbers point is,all the vices you put down to christianity exist in humanity in there own right.

Secondly they have been lifted to a technological and industrial complex scale by what turn out to be atheistic regimes.

It reminds me when the atheists of Austin made a televised own goal not realising they'd got tied up in their own reason.

When challenged about the disparity between religious and atheist charity the atheist defence was that the church had been around longer and had clocked up more charity that way.

Well,they missed that night that the argument is a two edged sword. If atheists haven't had time to clock up the good things.....I think you know where I am going with this one.

[Outrider]

I get the feeling you are a type of person who conflated everything bad with Christianity.

No, but I think believers have a tendency to put the good in Christians down to Christianity and the bad in Christians down to humanity, when their Christianity is as much a manifestation of their humanity as anything else.  It's pitched as something to aspire to, but it just ends up being a validation of whatever they wanted in the first instance, but with the added problem of a totalitarian backing.  When what they believe is peace and goodwill that's fine, but when what they believe is that the Jewish people must die it's a horror the likes of which we all hope never to see again.

I think McCawbers point is,all the vices you put down to christianity exist in humanity in there own right.

I quite accept that, but Christianity is touted as some sort of unique cure for this, and that's not proven to be the case at any point.

Secondly they have been lifted to a technological and industrial complex scale by what turn out to be atheistic regimes.

What have?  Medicine? Food? Water? Nuclear weapons? Biocides? Deforestation?

It reminds me when the atheists of Austin made a televised own goal not realising they'd got tied up in their own reason.

When challenged about the disparity between religious and atheist charity the atheist defence was that the church had been around longer and had clocked up more charity that way.

Well,they missed that night that the argument is a two edged sword. If atheists haven't had time to clock up the good things.....I think you know where I am going with this one.

Atheism, though, doesn't pitch itself as somehow inuring humanity to the worst of humanity - Christianity does make the claim, and doesn't follow through with it.  Atheism hasn't led to the worst of the acts of humanity - it hasn't stopped them either - but Christianity has been actively motivating in some horrors through history (and relatively recent history), Christianity continues to be a leading light in discrimination around the world, other religions have also played their part.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, but I think believers have a tendency to put the good in Christians down to Christianity and the bad in Christians down to humanity, when their Christianity is as much a manifestation of their humanity as anything else.  It's pitched as something to aspire to, but it just ends up being a validation of whatever they wanted in the first instance, but with the added problem of a totalitarian backing.  When what they believe is peace and goodwill that's fine, but when what they believe is that the Jewish people must die it's a horror the likes of which we all hope never to see again.

I quite accept that, but Christianity is touted as some sort of unique cure for this, and that's not proven to be the case at any point.

What have?  Medicine? Food? Water? Nuclear weapons? Biocides? Deforestation?

Atheism, though, doesn't pitch itself as somehow inuring humanity to the worst of humanity - Christianity does make the claim, and doesn't follow through with it.  Atheism hasn't led to the worst of the acts of humanity - it hasn't stopped them either - but Christianity has been actively motivating in some horrors through history (and relatively recent history), Christianity continues to be a leading light in discrimination around the world, other religions have also played their part.

O.

If as the Atheists of Austin are saying...is capable of charity. It is capable of everything else you are laying at religions door. No it hasn't yet flown planes into buildings but atheist regimes have carried out persecution torture and killing on a scale that makes Torquemada look like Santa.

[Outrider]

If as the Atheists of Austin are saying...is capable of charity. It is capable of everything else you are laying at religions door. No it hasn't yet flown planes into buildings but atheist regimes have carried out persecution torture and killing on a scale that makes Torquemada look like Santa.

Russian regimes, but not BECAUSE they were Russian.  Chinese regimes, but not BECAUSE they were Chinese.  Atheist regimes...

Whereas, the Crusades were explicitly because the Crusaders were Christian, the Holocaust was specifically because the Christian Germans wanted to persecute the Jews...

Humans are capable of many things; atheism doesn't given them a warrant to do any of them.  Religion not only gives them a warrant, it has an intrinsic tendency to extend that to a mandate, and then further to an obligation.  Atheism can be discussed, there is no 'authority' intrinsic to atheism (to atheists perhaps, but that again is a facet of humanity rather than atheism), whereas there is an absolute authority at the root of Christianity.  That totalitarian nature which is inherent to the Christian conceptualisation of god is what makes it so dangerous.

O.

[Owlswing]

If as the Atheists of Austin are saying...is capable of charity. It is capable of everything else you are laying at religions door. No, it hasn't yet flown planes into buildings but atheist regimes have carried out persecution torture and killing on a scale that makes Torquemada look like Santa.

So what you are saying is that because modern Islam is using torture and murder as a religious tool it was, and, presumably is, OK that Christianity could and did?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So what you are saying is that because modern Islam is using torture and murder as a religious tool it was, and, presumably is, OK that Christianity could and did?

No I'm saying that atheist regimes lifted torture persecution and killings to an industrial scale.
OK you can say Christianity is responsible for the same Islam was the same but by that interpretation we would have to say that previous to atheist regimes Pagan Rome perfected the art of torture killing and all manner of depravity to imperial levels.

[Roses]

Christianity is not theism, Your description of Christianity is a caricature. Other Gods are available but YOU KNOW THAT don't you.

Belief in Christianity has been responsible for many terrible crimes over the centuries. Even in this day and age Christian extremists have caused harm to other people.

[Outrider]

No I'm saying that atheist regimes lifted torture persecution and killings to an industrial scale.

Are you saying that they did it because they were atheist, though, because unless you are the 'atheist' bit is irrelevant.

O.