Author Topic: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?  (Read 15449 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2020, 08:12:02 AM »
Maybe. The same could be said of many things. Democracy, love, politics, money, land, power. Theism, including Christianity, is just another tool in the hands of mankind.
However, it is the faithbeliefs which give any perpetrator of ill deeds something to blame-  a God/pprophet/etc instead of us humans thus avoiding acknowledgement of  where the responsibilities lie.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2020, 08:43:18 AM »
However, it is the faithbeliefs which give any perpetrator of ill deeds something to blame-  a God/pprophet/etc instead of us humans thus avoiding acknowledgement of  where the responsibilities lie.
Which does not make any difference to the dead.

SusanDoris

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2020, 09:17:55 AM »
Which does not make any difference to the dead.
Of course not and I do  not think I implied that either.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2020, 09:24:59 AM »
Of course not and I do  not think I implied that either.
It just seems that you pick out the actions of religious murderers as somehow different from those acting for other reasons.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 09:34:20 AM by Nearly Sane »

SusanDoris

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2020, 11:38:42 AM »
It just seems that you pick out the actions of religious murderers as somehow different from those acting for other reasons.
No, murder is murder whoever is the murderer, but maybe some non-religious murderers realise that the responsibility for their actions is their own?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2020, 11:58:39 AM »
No, murder is murder whoever is the murderer, but maybe some non-religious murderers realise that the responsibility for their actions is their own?
I am sure lots of people who murder in the name of religion think the responsibility of their actions is their own, else why would some think that they will be rewarded for their actions.

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2020, 12:52:56 PM »
However, it is the faithbeliefs which give any perpetrator of ill deeds something to blame-  a God/pprophet/etc instead of us humans thus avoiding acknowledgement of  where the responsibilities lie.

Which does not make any difference to the dead.

In as much as nothing makes any difference to the dead, sure, but if the blaming of the instigators was the motivation for the masses to do the killing it would certainly be possible that the dead wouldn't have died in vain.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2020, 12:57:16 PM »
It just seems that you pick out the actions of religious murderers as somehow different from those acting for other reasons.

Isn't it? Reason itself. You don't need a reason if God is on your side. Deus vult. If God wills it is a reason it certainly would be different than any other.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2020, 01:08:55 PM »
Isn't it? Reason itself. You don't need a reason if God is on your side. Deus vult. If God wills it is a reason it certainly would be different than any other.
Too much assumption in there for me. Define 'God' and demonstrate it. Without that your post is uninteresting .

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2020, 01:10:05 PM »
In as much as nothing makes any difference to the dead, sure, but if the blaming of the instigators was the motivation for the masses to do the killing it would certainly be possible that the dead wouldn't have died in vain.
Sorry, not sure what you are trying to say here, could you expand?

ippy

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2020, 01:50:14 PM »
I would say they happened because of a lack of faith. Certainly a suspension of Jesus words "My kingdom is not of this world".
This is why theocracies never work.

But there is also dynastic ambition, National willy waving happening as well. Dont forget the Vatican did not have massive armies and people were moved by the will of a few kings and Lords.


This is why in the reformation the move was back to scripture and making that the benchmark. There are no armies of God in the NT merely the story of beleaguered Israelites and an early christianity existing precariously in a powerful and ruthless pagan empire. Out of this denominations sprang up religion becomes more personal. Work ethic then unfortunately a focus on material things both socially and philosophically.

One thing for christianity is that people can say whatever they like about it and can draw cartoons etc without fear of retribution from any branch of the movement, so at least it can now continue being ignored, as it largely is in the UK, which provides the time needed to concentrate on dismantling its far to many privileges.

Have you managed to find any evidence that would support the magical, mystical and superstition based parts of your manual yet? (World fame and all that goes with it etc).

Have a good day Vlad, ippy.
 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 02:02:32 PM by ippy »

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2020, 02:50:14 PM »
Too much assumption in there for me. Define 'God' and demonstrate it. Without that your post is uninteresting .

A god is anyone or anything that is venerated. The Hebrew el and it's variations come from a root word meaning mighty. Eric Clapton is a god. The Bible refers to Moses, the judges of Israel, the Sumerian King Tammuz, Jesus, Jehovah, Satan, Molech, Baal, etc. as gods.   
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2020, 02:56:58 PM »
A god is anyone or anything that is venerated. The Hebrew el and it's variations come from a root word meaning mighty. Eric Clapton is a god. The Bible refers to Moses, the judges of Israel, the Sumerian King Tammuz, Jesus, Jehovah, Satan, Molech, Baal, etc. as gods.
i don't think that fits in with your use of Deus Vult. You seem to be using the term in different ways in different posts.

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2020, 02:58:03 PM »
Sorry, not sure what you are trying to say here, could you expand?

Whether its dumping tea in the harbor dressed as Indians, 9/11 or 7/7 there is always an instigator who's motives for war are distorted to provoke the masses into doing their killing. So, Roosevelt wants to get into WWII, he arranges for the Japanese to attack. All American wars were false flag operations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw0-ASR4sr8
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2020, 03:05:14 PM »
i don't think that fits in with your use of Deus Vult. You seem to be using the term in different ways in different posts.

Not really. Deus vult. God wills it. Rallying cry for the first crusade. God had nothing to do with it except for that he was used to justify the first crusade. The specific God in question isn't particularly relevant as long as the god being used is that of the people. The acronym for Gold or Guns, Oil and Drugs, for example. GOD. Typically GOD is what wars are fought for but you don't tell the soldiers that. You tell them something like "defend freedom and democracy!" or "God wills it!"
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2020, 03:06:32 PM »
Whether its dumping tea in the harbor dressed as Indians, 9/11 or 7/7 there is always an instigator who's motives for war are distorted to provoke the masses into doing their killing. So, Roosevelt wants to get into WWII, he arranges for the Japanese to attack. All American wars were false flag operations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw0-ASR4sr8
I am still not seeing any clarity about what you are trying to say. And this just reads like a bunch of assertions.

ETA . Not really interested in random youtube videos which are not relevant to the thread.

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2020, 03:09:27 PM »
I am still not seeing any clarity about what you are trying to say. And this just reads like a bunch of assertions.

Of course it's assertions. God is used to justify war rather than the actual cause of it. 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2020, 03:10:07 PM »
Not really. Deus vult. God wills it. Rallying cry for the first crusade. God had nothing to do with it except for that he was used to justify the first crusade. The specific God in question isn't particularly relevant as long as the god being used is that of the people. The acronym for Gold or Guns, Oil and Drugs, for example. GOD. Typically GOD is what wars are fought for but you don't tell the soldiers that. You tell them something like "defend freedom and democracy!" or "God wills it!"
I think you then you are using the tern both as others understand it and then removing their understanding and submitting your own. If we are going to talk about the motivations of individuals then their definition cannot be just ignored.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2020, 03:12:10 PM »
Of course it's assertions. God is used to justify war rather than the actual cause of it.
I agree. But that has no relevance to your irrelevant remarks about false flags and US Wars. You are still making your original comment clear or relevant.

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2020, 03:14:22 PM »
I think you then you are using the tern both as others understand it and then removing their understanding and submitting your own.

Okay. What, then, is the difference between the term as others would understand it and my own understanding? 


If we are going to talk about the motivations of individuals then their definition cannot be just ignored.

They certainly can be and are ignored. The individual loses identity when becoming a part of the collective.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2020, 03:17:47 PM »
Okay. What, then, is the difference between the term as others would understand it and my own understanding? 


They certainly can be and are ignored. The individual loses identity when becoming a part of the collective.

It would depend on the individuals.

And the Borg don't exist.

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2020, 03:23:47 PM »
It would depend on the individuals.

And the Borg don't exist.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that. The Borg is alive and well in the military industrial complex of your choice, and the loss of individuality doesn't depend upon the individual unless it's nipped in the bud. When you join any collective you lose your identity whether you have the sense to know it or not. Theism, atheism, nationalism, patriotism, et ceteraism.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2020, 03:26:12 PM »
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that. The Borg is alive and well in the military industrial complex of your choice, and the loss of individuality doesn't depend upon the individual unless it's nipped in the bud. When you join any collective you lose your identity whether you have the sense to know it or not. Theism, atheism, nationalism, patriotism, et ceteraism.
You do like your assertions. And again this is irrelevant. Let's try to get it vaguely back on track. Is there anything you 'venerate'? If so what; and why?

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2020, 03:33:48 PM »
You do like your assertions. And again this is irrelevant. Let's try to get it vaguely back on track. Is there anything you 'venerate'? If so what; and why?

I venerate Jehovah because he is sovereign.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Nearly Sane

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Re: Is it any wonder that anti-theism exists?
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2020, 03:48:16 PM »
I venerate Jehovah because he is sovereign.
So when you defined God as anything anyone venerates, you don't actually believe that. And what is 'Jehovah'