The crisis in Morality

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Morality is in crisis with the route to the moral high ground looking like the slopes of Everest on a particularly Busy day i.e. crowded and dangerous.

Evangelical Christians supporting Trump
The secular moral project in knots over LBGQT issues
Richard Dawkins going Alf Garnett on us....... What is going on?

Science itself and possibly reason are blameless in this because they show not one scintilla of morality. Is moral relativism therefore equally innocent because it too contains not one scintilla of morality?

And isn't Evil the elephant in the room? Might looking at ourselves less charitably in the field of morals help us to get a better perspective?

[Roses]

What is your definition of morality?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What is your definition of morality?

Moral Good.
What ought to be/do and what not ought to be/do.
Good and bad behaviour as opposed to just behaviour.

[BeRational]

Moral Good.
What ought to be/do and what not ought to be/do.
Good and bad behaviour as opposed to just behaviour.

So how do you tell if an action is morally good?

[Gordon]

Moral Good.
What ought to be/do and what not ought to be/do.
Good and bad behaviour as opposed to just behaviour.

This just a list of terms without definition: ' good', bad', 'ought to do', 'ought not to do'.

Since this is the Philosophy board perhaps a better place to start would be to consider these terms (and any others) with reference to one (or more) of the various philosophical approaches to morality: perhaps start with the one that you feel most closely aligns with your own considered position.

[Roses]

Moral Good.
What ought to be/do and what not ought to be/do.
Good and bad behaviour as opposed to just behaviour.

People's idea of what is good and bad behaviour can be very different indeed. For instance, some  think it is immoral to have a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex. Devout Catholics think it immoral to use contraception.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So how do you tell if an action is morally good?

Is it loving.

[Outrider]

People's idea of what is good and bad behaviour can be very different indeed. For instance, some  think it is immoral to have a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex.

Is it loving.

I'm reliable assured by those who purport to know that the gay sexy times most certainly are.  Equally I've come across encountered people who fall either side of the question when it comes to prophylactics...

That doesn't seem to stop many of the religious - particularly Christian and Muslim - mouthpieces sallying forth.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm reliable assured by those who purport to know that the gay sexy times most certainly are.  Equally I've come across encountered people who fall either side of the question when it comes to prophylactics...

That doesn't seem to stop many of the religious - particularly Christian and Muslim - mouthpieces sallying forth.

O.

So who is being immoral here? And why do you think it is immoral?

[Outrider]

So who is being immoral here? And why do you think it is immoral?

Personally, I don't think anyone involved in the sex is being immoral, because I can't see anyone that's being harmed or restrained.  If all the believers do is express their individual disquiet then I still don't see any immorality involved.

If, however, the believers try to influence the civil law to enforce their beliefs on others via regulatory restrictions, then I see something immoral.

You?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This just a list of terms without definition: ' good', bad', 'ought to do', 'ought not to do'.

Since this is the Philosophy board perhaps a better place to start would be to consider these terms (and any others) with reference to one (or more) of the various philosophical approaches to morality: perhaps start with the one that you feel most closely aligns with your own considered position.

I think there is an initial point to be made before we get onto a more philosophical sociological and perhaps psychochemical approach to the question namely:

''Any fucking moron that bangs on loudly about what is good and bad, what people ought and ought not to be doing and comes on here with no concrete idea of why that is so or an at the end of the day it's all relative is a fucking moron''.

My own position is we should love God and love our neighbour.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Personally, I don't think anyone involved in the sex is being immoral, because I can't see anyone that's being harmed or restrained.  If all the believers do is express their individual disquiet then I still don't see any immorality involved.

If, however, the believers try to influence the civil law to enforce their beliefs on others via regulatory restrictions, then I see something immoral.

Why would you think it is immoral? What is it you are ''seeing''?

[Enki]

So how do you tell if an action is morally good?

For myself,  ideally, when I say  something is morally wrong, my first reaction is of something which offends my nature. The wrongness I feel might take the form of disapproval, disgust, abhorrence, even fear, depending upon the situation. I then try to assess the wrongness of the situation according to my values,( which may well have their origin in my culture and my upbringing). in as rational a way as possible(e.g. by trying to ascertain as many facts regarding the situation as possible or by  trying to consider in as  level headed a way as possible  the points of view of others.)  The result of all this is something which I would call my moral opinion. No god needed or wanted.

[Outrider]

Why would you think it is immoral? What is it you are ''seeing''?

I see someone trying to restrict other people's behaviour without sufficient justification - they can't show harm, they can't show damage, they can't show any increased likelihood of unhappiness or long-term negative outcomes...

Again, though, what's your take?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For myself,  ideally, when I say  something is morally wrong, my first reaction is of something which offends my nature. The wrongness I feel might take the form of disapproval, disgust, abhorrence, even fear, depending upon the situation. I then try to assess the wrongness of the situation according to my values,( which may well have their origin in my culture and my upbringing). in as rational a way as possible(e.g. by trying to ascertain as many facts regarding the situation as possible or by  trying to consider in as  level headed a way as possible  the points of view of others.)  The result of all this is something which I would call my moral opinion. No god needed or wanted.

Do you think that which is rational is also moral?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I see someone trying to restrict other people's behaviour without sufficient justification -

Why do they need justification? what is immoral about not having it?

[Roses]

I think there is an initial point to be made before we get onto a more philosophical sociological and perhaps psychochemical approach to the question namely:

''Any fucking moron that bangs on loudly about what is good and bad, what people ought and ought not to be doing and comes on here with no concrete idea of why that is so or an at the end of the day it's all relative is a fucking moron''.

My own position is we should love God and love our neighbour.

What is there to love about the Biblical god? It would be worse than loving Hitler or any other despot.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What is there to love about the Biblical god? It would be worse than loving Hitler or any other despot.

The greatest commandments of course love God, love yourself, love your neighbour, and love your enemies. Is God your enemy?(I can't answer that only you can) are you his?

[Enki]

Do you think that which is rational is also moral?

No, I didn't say that at all. I suggested that I would try to include a rational view as part of my assessment.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, I didn't say that at all. I suggested that I would try to include a rational view as part of my assessment.

How do you think that would help you come to a decision on the morality of a situation?

[Roses]

The greatest commandments of course love God, love yourself, love your neighbour, and love your enemies. Is God your enemy?(I can't answer that only you can) are you his?

It would be my enemy if it actually existed.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It would be my enemy if it actually existed.

Why?

[Outrider]

Why do they need justification? what is immoral about not having it?

Because we have a Universal Declaration of Human Rights affords people liberty (Article 3) and freedom from 'arbitrary interference with their privacy, family, home...' (Article 12).

Infringing on that with arbitrary interference is immoral.

And, again, more in hope that expectation, what's your take on it?

O.

[Roses]

Why?

Have you ever read the Bible and seen the terrible deeds attributed to it.?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Because we have a Universal Declaration of Human Rights affords people liberty (Article 3) and freedom from 'arbitrary interference with their privacy, family, home...' (Article 12).

Infringing on that with arbitrary interference is immoral.

Why is it immoral? Yes there is a bit of paper but there could be a bit of paper that says it's ok. Which would be moral?