Author Topic: The crisis in Morality  (Read 20453 times)

Outrider

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2020, 02:02:30 PM »
So when Homosexuality was anathema, was that right or wrong.

That rather depends on your precepts - for me, I'd say it was wrong because it was an unwarranted infringement in light of the lack of any obvious harm arising from the activity.

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If it was right then and wrong now will it be right in future?

That depends on if we change the fundamental precepts upon which we make the judgement or if more information comes to light.

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Why was the anathematisation of homosexuality right then and wrong now

Because authoritarian laws and hangovers from explicitly Christian ideas of 'sin' were considered more important than individual liberty in the culture of the time - in my opinion it was as morally wrong then as it would be now, but I wasn't there growing up in that climate.

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How does the situation affect morality when it is after all just a changing situation.

In a constantly developing way - morality is not something outside of culture, it's part of the framework of culture.  As one changes, so the other adjusts to accommodate and vice versa.

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When you say involving do you mean moral progress?

Progress is a subjective claim - like biological evolution, it's a change to whatever's most suitable at the time, to try to make an absolute claim is fraught with peril given that the precepts of morality are subjective in the first place. If you take the idea of personal liberty until and unless there's demonstrable harm to be a reasonable basis for morality then I'd suggest that we've seen progress over the last century, yes.  If you have other foundational understandings you might take a different view; I suspect much of the Chinese populace, for instance, where compliance with societal norms appear to given much more weight, might think that morality has foundered in the last few decades.

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How is that measured?

If only we had a metric...

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It seems to me that morality in your scheme is almost indistinguishable from cultural hegemony, political power and social fashion.

Pretty much - it's the elements of those concepts that are explicitly concerned with how we should rather than necessarily how we are.

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In which case where does morality actually come in?

It doesn't 'come in', it 'comes out' - it's a product of society, not something impinging on society.

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With all due respect to the wellbeingers and do no harmers does that mean that if we let others do harm we can still be moral?

That's a question in that framework - some people would enact 'Good Samaritan' laws, others would value the personal liberty to close your eyes and not get involved as more important.  Personally I like to think I'd probably get involved if I saw something happening that I thought needed intervention - on some occasions I have (an old lady being accosted on a train late last year springs to mind), whereas on other occasions I haven't (I've walked past any number of individuals in London claiming to be homeless and begging for money).

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In our constant evolution of morality then what is it our understanding is changing about?

What we, collectively, aspire to be.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2020, 02:16:03 PM »
That rather depends on your precepts - for me, I'd say it was wrong because it was an unwarranted infringement in light of the lack of any obvious harm arising from the activity.

That depends on if we change the fundamental precepts upon which we make the judgement or if more information comes to light.

Because authoritarian laws and hangovers from explicitly Christian ideas of 'sin' were considered more important than individual liberty in the culture of the time - in my opinion it was as morally wrong then as it would be now, but I wasn't there growing up in that climate.

In a constantly developing way - morality is not something outside of culture, it's part of the framework of culture.  As one changes, so the other adjusts to accommodate and vice versa.

Progress is a subjective claim - like biological evolution, it's a change to whatever's most suitable at the time, to try to make an absolute claim is fraught with peril given that the precepts of morality are subjective in the first place. If you take the idea of personal liberty until and unless there's demonstrable harm to be a reasonable basis for morality then I'd suggest that we've seen progress over the last century, yes.  If you have other foundational understandings you might take a different view; I suspect much of the Chinese populace, for instance, where compliance with societal norms appear to given much more weight, might think that morality has foundered in the last few decades.

If only we had a metric...

Pretty much - it's the elements of those concepts that are explicitly concerned with how we should rather than necessarily how we are.

It doesn't 'come in', it 'comes out' - it's a product of society, not something impinging on society.

That's a question in that framework - some people would enact 'Good Samaritan' laws, others would value the personal liberty to close your eyes and not get involved as more important.  Personally I like to think I'd probably get involved if I saw something happening that I thought needed intervention - on some occasions I have (an old lady being accosted on a train late last year springs to mind), whereas on other occasions I haven't (I've walked past any number of individuals in London claiming to be homeless and begging for money).

What we, collectively, aspire to be.

O.
Seems to me that I'm correct in my conclusion that your conception of morality doesn't contain much if any morality. Certainly the redundancy or capability of redundancy of the term morality is fairly obvious. Of course since we seem to have arrived at it, why are your precepts better than mine.....or to put it more correctly, why are my precepts better than yours?. Your scheme seems to have no real answer.

Anyway thanks for your input

Outrider

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2020, 02:20:06 PM »
Seems to me that I'm correct in my conclusion that your conception of morality doesn't contain much if any morality.

If you're looking for some external source or absolute morality no, but then I don't see that there is one of those.

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Certainly the redundancy or capability of redundancy of the term morality is fairly obvious. Of course since we seem to have arrived at it, why are your precepts better than mine....

Individually they aren't, but then if we're only concerned with ourselves we don't need morality, we just behave as we'd like.  We only need morality within a culture or society, and then our individual take on it is better or worse dependent upon how closely it cleaves to the moral centre.

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or to put it more correctly, why are my precepts better than yours?

I'm pretty sure it's not going to come to that.

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Your scheme seems to have no real answer.

It does, but you'll have to accept that my answer is that it depends, which isn't surprising in a morally relativist system.

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Anyway thanks for your input

No problem.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2020, 02:30:37 PM »
If you're looking for some external source or absolute morality no, but then I don't see that there is one of those.

Individually they aren't, but then if we're only concerned with ourselves we don't need morality, we just behave as we'd like.  We only need morality within a culture or society, and then our individual take on it is better or worse dependent upon how closely it cleaves to the moral centre.

I'm pretty sure it's not going to come to that.

It does, but you'll have to accept that my answer is that it depends, which isn't surprising in a morally relativist system.

No problem.

O.
I'm sorry but as nice as an explanation of a term is, if it makes that term redundant then it isn't really an explanation of the term is it.

Similarly an explanation of morality which ends up with no actual possibility of moral arbitration is a bit of a non starter.

Anybody who holds with moral irrealism who under other circumstances would not support anything that isn't real purports to being moral is a bit of a humbug n'est pas?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 02:34:23 PM by The Suppository of Human Wisdom »

Outrider

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2020, 02:47:36 PM »
I'm sorry but as nice as an explanation of a term is, if it makes that term redundant then it isn't really an explanation of the term is it.

And how does it do that?

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Similarly an explanation of morality which ends up with no actual possibility of moral arbitration is a bit of a non starter.

There's always the mechanism for arbitration, it's just that over time the balance of what is and isn't acceptable moves.  That shouldn't be a surprise, that's readily apparent in history and even theology if you place any value in that.

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Anybody who holds with moral irrealism who under other circumstances would not support anything that isn't real purports to being moral is a bit of a humbug n'est pas?

I think you're suggesting that I'm ideologically a materialist (which I've already explained I'm not) and therefore don't have grounds for claiming any morality (which doesn't follow from the precept).  As for the pejorative 'moral irrealism' for someone who identifies the very obvious moral relativism that is a facet of observable history I'll leave that to stand for itself, I think it says more about you than it does me.

If morality is absolute, if there's a clear objective right and wrong and any relative system is just 'moral irrealism' and waffle how do you account for the significant change in what's considered to be sinful and acceptable between the New and Old Testaments?

O.


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Nearly Sane

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2020, 02:56:52 PM »

...
If morality is absolute, if there's a clear objective right and wrong and any relative system is just 'moral irrealism' and waffle how do you account for the significant change in what's considered to be sinful and acceptable between the New and Old Testaments?

O.
Just for clarity, moral absolutism has a specific meaning  that any action such as stealing is always wrong. In theory you could be a moral subjectivist and a moral absolutist - though I don't think anyone is.

You don't have to be a moral absolutist to be a moral realist because you could be a consequentialist and a realist.

The usual formulation that challenges moral realism is antirealism.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2020, 05:55:16 PM »


There's always the mechanism for arbitration
Really since moral arbitration is akin to this years pantomime isn't it the person with the craziest wig who gets to choose what's IN and what's out this year?

In other words on what authority does arbitration occur?

Outrider

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2020, 08:28:44 PM »
Really since moral arbitration is akin to this years pantomime isn't it the person with the craziest wig who gets to choose what's IN and what's out this year?

You're the advocate for the silly hat people telling us why shellfish aren't as much of a problem now as they used to be, I suppose the calm, reasoned consideration of experienced judges probably seems a bit 'off the wall' for you.

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In other words on what authority does arbitration occur?

The authority of the populace that, directly or indirectly, appoints them to the post.

O.
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SteveH

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2020, 11:17:33 PM »
So how do you tell if an action is morally good?
If it leads, or can be expected to lead, to an increase in general happiness. Rule-utilitarianism is the only ethical theory that makes sense.
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BeRational

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2020, 12:04:42 AM »
If it leads, or can be expected to lead, to an increase in general happiness. Rule-utilitarianism is the only ethical theory that makes sense.

Yes as I said wellbeing.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2020, 12:12:50 AM »
You're the advocate for the silly hat people telling us why shellfish aren't as much of a problem now as they used to be, I suppose the calm, reasoned consideration of experienced judges probably seems a bit 'off the wall' for you.

The authority of the populace that, directly or indirectly, appoints them to the post.

O.
Don't you think there are problems equating the Law with morality?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2020, 09:26:56 AM »
Yes as I said wellbeing.
Firstly Do we know what is good for us? For example it was thought industrial wealth and consumerism was progress only to find we had severely caned the ecosystem and our environment plus we suffer from diseases of overindulgence.

Secondly Given that people often don't know what is good for them there is a temptation for certain folks to know what is good for them and enforce it as well as those who know what is good for themselves who get to enforce it. At the moment that is often the billionaire technocrat.

So, BR. What does well being look like? who's going to decide it? who is going to enforce it?

ekim

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2020, 09:56:55 AM »
There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbours sympathised with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"

Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"

Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?  Who knows?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2020, 10:09:11 AM »
There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbours sympathised with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"


Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"

Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?  Who knows?
Good story, but I notice nobody does or commits anything in it, it is things happening to them. There is a moral to the story but is there any morality in the story.

SteveH

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2020, 10:19:54 AM »
Firstly Do we know what is good for us? For example it was thought industrial wealth and consumerism was progress only to find we had severely caned the ecosystem and our environment plus we suffer from diseases of overindulgence.

Secondly Given that people often don't know what is good for them there is a temptation for certain folks to know what is good for them and enforce it as well as those who know what is good for themselves who get to enforce it. At the moment that is often the billionaire technocrat.

So, BR. What does well being look like? who's going to decide it? who is going to enforce it?
OK, so we have imperfect knowledge and wisdom, and may get it wrong: but what else, other than wellbeing/happiness, should we aim at? At least if we're aiming at that, we might hit it at least some of the time.
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Bramble

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2020, 10:45:01 AM »
Good story, but I notice nobody does or commits anything in it, it is things happening to them. There is a moral to the story but is there any morality in the story.

The story seems to be making the point that it can be difficult to know what's good or bad. It can depend on perspective. Your good may be my bad today but tomorrow that might reverse. How often do we really know what's for the best? Do we even know why we make the moral choices we do? What makes me different from you in these respects depends surely on a constellation of things that have happened to each of us historically, so is there such a difference between what I do and what happens to me? How much of our cherished belief in moral agency is just a rationalisation after the fact?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2020, 11:14:17 AM »
OK, so we have imperfect knowledge and wisdom, and may get it wrong: but what else, other than wellbeing/happiness, should we aim at? At least if we're aiming at that, we might hit it at least some of the time.
I'm wondering whether happiness and well being could conflict with morality.
Could we get into a position where we could say....yes we can increase happiness in this situation but ought we.

Secondly wellbeing sounds good. Are we all on the same page? Not that I'm claiming wellbeing equals morality. Others are saying it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2020, 11:18:14 AM »
The story seems to be making the point that it can be difficult to know what's good or bad. It can depend on perspective. Your good may be my bad today but tomorrow that might reverse. How often do we really know what's for the best? Do we even know why we make the moral choices we do? What makes me different from you in these respects depends surely on a constellation of things that have happened to each of us historically, so is there such a difference between what I do and what happens to me? How much of our cherished belief in moral agency is just a rationalisation after the fact?
You are right in that hindsight makes prophets of us all. But is the honest mistake morality? Going into something knowing or damning the consequences for a knowingly short term fix sounds more in the realm of morality.

SteveH

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2020, 11:25:11 AM »
I'm wondering whether happiness and well being could conflict with morality.
Could we get into a position where we could say....yes we can increase happiness in this situation but ought we.

No and no. don't be silly. Increasing happiness is the only purpose of morality, so there is no conceivable situation in which it would be wrong to increase general happiness (not necessarily my happiness: it might be necessary for me to sacrifice my life if that will lead to a net increase in happiness).
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2020, 11:51:48 AM »
No and no. don't be silly. Increasing happiness is the only purpose of morality, so there is no conceivable situation in which it would be wrong to increase general happiness (not necessarily my happiness: it might be necessary for me to sacrifice my life if that will lead to a net increase in happiness).
Forgive me but your unhappy conclusion at the end isn't doing much for my conception of happiness. What does general happiness look like and why have I got the Bee Gees "I started a joke" going on in my head.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 11:54:27 AM by The Suppository of Human Wisdom »

SteveH

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2020, 12:12:29 PM »
Forgive me but your unhappy conclusion at the end isn't doing much for my conception of happiness. What does general happiness look like and why have I got the Bee Gees "I started a joke" going on in my head.
What do you suggest as an alternative for morality to seek to promote?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2020, 03:07:55 PM »
What do you suggest as an alternative for morality to seek to promote?
Before I answer that I'm not sure either yourself nor Be Rational have sufficiently "De vagued" either well being or happiness. Now if you can explain how morality is effective for them rather than just a redundant idea you may very well achieve that.

What is morality there to promote if not happiness? HOW ABOUT ITSELF?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 03:13:22 PM by The Suppository of Human Wisdom »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2020, 04:53:58 PM »
Before I answer that I'm not sure either yourself nor Be Rational have sufficiently "De vagued" either well being or happiness. Now if you can explain how morality is effective for them rather than just a redundant idea you may very well achieve that.

What is morality there to promote if not happiness? HOW ABOUT ITSELF?
I think WM was using 'morality there to promote' as a figure of speech i.e. we employ morality to promote something
You seem to be granting morality some  active agency of its own. Sounds nonsensical to me "morality promotes morality". Even "humans engage in moral acts to promote morality" doesn't make much sense.
Utilitarianism will do; like democracy it's the lesser of several evils.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2020, 06:54:54 PM »
I think WM was using 'morality there to promote' as a figure of speech i.e. we employ morality to promote something
You seem to be granting morality some  active agency of its own. Sounds nonsensical to me "morality promotes morality". Even "humans engage in moral acts to promote morality" doesn't make much sense.
Utilitarianism will do; like democracy it's the lesser of several evils.
I think I mean morality for the sake of its self. Morality put to the service of something certainly doesn't make sense and yet here you are suggesting it.

If there is a moral realism then it can be enjoyed for it's own sake like mathematical realism. The whole universe apart from intelligent and conscious entities tend not to be subject or privy to it and of course it is related to the personal.
In terms of things being lesser evils that suggests a scale and a spectrum with absolute good at one end and absolute evil at the other end. .....Do you wish therefore to retract?

BeRational

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Re: The crisis in Morality
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2020, 12:22:14 AM »
Before I answer that I'm not sure either yourself nor Be Rational have sufficiently "De vagued" either well being or happiness. Now if you can explain how morality is effective for them rather than just a redundant idea you may very well achieve that.

What is morality there to promote if not happiness? HOW ABOUT ITSELF?

Its  ot vague.
Where  do you get your morality from.
Dont tell me the bible!
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