The crisis in Morality

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

I've just done a search Hillside and the phrase "Human Made morality is redundant"......is yours. Not mine.

Wah wah wah waaaaaaaaah.

I see you haven’t take my advice to make your lying less obvious then:

“Our conscience decides namely the faculty which detects the moral landscape. No moral landscape no morality........Morality is a redundant term in any other scenario.”

Reply 125

“That if you like and even if you don’t like is bollocks.
Any other explanation of morality leaves the term morality redundant. Any explanation that leaves it intact is better than one which makes it redundant.

So there is a moral reality or the whole thing is effectively just arsepull of the type you wouldn’t even dream of engaging with if it was just ordinary reasoning which was involved.”

Reply 127

“The term redundant is used to refer to the phrase Moral behaviour as properly understood in say empiricism and naturalism. Since all we can do effectively is observe behaviour and anything like any capacity to detect a moral landscape is rejected then the word moral here is meaningless and a mere label. So in a phrase like moral behaviour the ''moral'' part is unnecessary and therefore redundant because of the sufficiency of the term behaviour.

Since no self respecting materialist, empiricist, naturalist would tolerate any serious mention of 'Beautiful' behaviour or 'classy' behaviour why should we take the term moral behaviour as used by the same people any more seriously and why do they?”

Reply 131

“Only in fantasy Hillside if the word moral is effectively a redundant word in the phrase 'moral question' because if  ''moral'' is what you wanna make it anyway (which is what you are about to argue), then they are not actually disagreeing on moral questions........So anything you might have to say isn't now worth the trouble.”

Reply 135

“How can it be irrelevant when apparently anything is relevant as far as morality goes. Anything less than moral reality and the word morality is fucking irrelevant, sense free and fucking empty for goodness sake.”

Reply 136

“If you are saying well actually morality isn't really real then the word moral becomes redundant. Any subsequent piece containing the word moral is redundant. That is why I gave your last post.....The last post.”

Reply 139

So now you’ve been caught out again, and as you just claimed to have demonstrated something rather than just asserted it perhaps you’d be good enough to tell us after all this time what the demonstration is. 

What’s stopping you?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

PS Any news yet on why you worship a god that's indifferent to slavery?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, it's exploitation, it's illegal, there is legal recourse, there are active government policies prohibiting it, it's fundamentally different from slavery which wasn't just those practical concerns but it was the normalisation of those, it was the state actively impressing those conditions on people, not criminals having to do so in the dark crevices of society.

If you can't grasp how that makes things fundamentally different, I'm not sure how I can explain it to you any more simply.

O.

Outrider. The modern slavery act 2015 or as you would have it The modern not actually slavery Act is I understand it partly a consolidation of all slavery legislation.
So prior to 2015 people are getting done for slavery as they are post 2015. This demonstrates that if people are being prosecuted and declared guilty then a defence of it isnt actually slaveryis not recognised.

You and Hillside have thus made yourselves look foolish.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

Outrider. The modern slavery act 2015 or as you would have it The modern not actually slavery Act is I understand it partly a consolidation of all slavery legislation.
So prior to 2015 people are getting done for slavery as they are post 2015. This demonstrates that if people are being prosecuted and declared guilty then a defence of it isnt actually slaveryis not recognised.

You and Hillside have thus made yourselves look foolish.

I corrected you about that in Reply 195:

Because it's "An Act to make provision about slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour and about human trafficking, including provision for the protection of victims;... " The Act uses "slavery" in its title as short form description for all such offences, but does not say that they all meet the more narrow legal definition of slavery.

If you weren't so determined to misrepresent what people actually say and instead bothered to look it up yourself you wouldn't keep embarrassing yourself like this.

Why then are you lying about it now?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perce,

I see you haven’t take my advice to make your lying less obvious then:

“Our conscience decides namely the faculty which detects the moral landscape. No moral landscape no morality........Morality is a redundant term in any other scenario.”

Reply 125

“That if you like and even if you don’t like is bollocks.
Any other explanation of morality leaves the term morality redundant. Any explanation that leaves it intact is better than one which makes it redundant.

So there is a moral reality or the whole thing is effectively just arsepull of the type you wouldn’t even dream of engaging with if it was just ordinary reasoning which was involved.”

Reply 127

“The term redundant is used to refer to the phrase Moral behaviour as properly understood in say empiricism and naturalism. Since all we can do effectively is observe behaviour and anything like any capacity to detect a moral landscape is rejected then the word moral here is meaningless and a mere label. So in a phrase like moral behaviour the ''moral'' part is unnecessary and therefore redundant because of the sufficiency of the term behaviour.

Since no self respecting materialist, empiricist, naturalist would tolerate any serious mention of 'Beautiful' behaviour or 'classy' behaviour why should we take the term moral behaviour as used by the same people any more seriously and why do they?”

Reply 131

“Only in fantasy Hillside if the word moral is effectively a redundant word in the phrase 'moral question' because if  ''moral'' is what you wanna make it anyway (which is what you are about to argue), then they are not actually disagreeing on moral questions........So anything you might have to say isn't now worth the trouble.”

Reply 135

“How can it be irrelevant when apparently anything is relevant as far as morality goes. Anything less than moral reality and the word morality is fucking irrelevant, sense free and fucking empty for goodness sake.”

Reply 136

“If you are saying well actually morality isn't really real then the word moral becomes redundant. Any subsequent piece containing the word moral is redundant. That is why I gave your last post.....The last post.”

Reply 139

So now you’ve been caught out again, and as you just claimed to have demonstrated something rather than just asserted it perhaps you’d be good enough to tell us after all this time what the demonstration is. 

What’s stopping you?

So much for your bullshit "No argument has been made" and.
Nothing in what I said equating to YOUR phrase "Human made morality is redundant."

 What you seem to be doing here is what you always do. Strut out on stage like some kind of Lord Flasheart deliver some flowery bollocks to the gallery and hope they run off for a celebratory wristie not noticing what utter wank it is.
Again I have said nothing suggesting genuine morality is redundant.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

So much for your bullshit "No argument has been made" and….

You made no arguments – just assertions. Why bother pretending otherwise?

Nothing in what I said equating to YOUR phrase "Human made morality is redundant."

And the lies keep on coming. You said (Reply 125): “Morality is a redundant term in any other scenario.”

Are you now suggesting that human-made made morality isn’t “any other scenario”?

What you seem to be doing here is what you always do. Strut out on stage like some kind of Lord Flasheart deliver some flowery bollocks to the gallery and hope they run off for a celebratory wristie not noticing what utter wank it is.

Tantrum over? Good. Now then, about your abject failure to produce even a scintilla of an argument to justify your assertions about “any other scenario” morality being "redundant", "arse pull", "turd polishing", "not real" etc. Any thoughts?

Or should we conclude that you have no argument at all for that, and that your claim to have demonstrated it was just another of your lies?

Again I have said nothing suggesting genuine morality is redundant.

Again, that’s just your straw man. Where you’ve crashed and burned though is in your failure to justify your asserted but un-argued belief about what “genuine morality” must be.   

Perhaps it’s time you stopped lying about that?

[Outrider]

The modern slavery act 2015 or as you would have it The modern not actually slavery Act is I understand it partly a consolidation of all slavery legislation.

And the Modern Slavery (capitalised, because it's a proper noun in part to point out that it's not the conventional usage of 'slave') applies wherever a 'person holds another in slavery or servitude'... so even the legislation that you're citing - which very clearly is making the activity ILLEGAL, not legalising it, differentiates between slavery and other forms of exploitation.  This is explicitly based upon Article 4 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states that people shall be free of slavery or forced labour... so also not limited to slavery.

So prior to 2015 people are getting done for slavery as they are post 2015. This demonstrates that if people are being prosecuted and declared guilty then a defence of it isnt actually slaveryis not recognised.

No, because the legislation wisely includes other forms of servitude into 'Modern Slavery'.

You and Hillside have thus made yourselves look foolish.

Only to the extent that we keep coming back and expecting something better from you.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Outy,

Only to the extent that we keep coming back and expecting something better from you.

I believe St Jude is the patron saint of lost causes. I’ll have us a couple of medallions made up...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And the Modern Slavery (capitalised, because it's a proper noun in part to point out that it's not the conventional usage of 'slave') applies wherever a 'person holds another in slavery or servitude'... so even the legislation that you're citing - which very clearly is making the activity ILLEGAL, not legalising it, differentiates between slavery and other forms of exploitation.  This is explicitly based upon Article 4 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states that people shall be free of slavery or forced labour... so also not limited to slavery.

No, because the legislation wisely includes other forms of servitude into 'Modern Slavery'.

Only to the extent that we keep coming back and expecting something better from you.

O.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

What point do you think your'e making?

Oh, and whether you use the formal definition or the more generic catchall term why do you worship a god who's indifferent to any of it? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

One bollocks atheist argument jumped over another atheists arguments back and another bollocks atheist argument jumped over another atheist arguments back and the first bollocks atheist argument jumped over the second atheists back and the second bollocks atheist argument jumped over the third bollocks atheist arguments back.

They were only playing leapfrog
They were only playing leapfrog
They were only playing leapfrog
As the third bollocks atheist argument jumped over the fourth atheist arguments back.

I'll get me coat.

[Outrider]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_21st_century

"Contemporary slavery, also known as modern slavery or neo-slavery, refers to institutional slavery that continues to occur in present-day society."

So, three different qualifications of slavery there, none of which constitutes just, you know, ACTUAL slavery.  I've made the distinction, and I've made it for a reason; I've not defended or ignored the very real damage the activities that constitute Modern Slavery do, and I've explained why I think there's a real distinction to be made there.

Now, given that, what are you trying to achieve here?  Even if I were to accede to the nonsense idea that there's no difference between the sort of slavery that took place in, say, the 1800s and Modern Slavery, in what way would that demonstrate that the original acts were not perpetrate largely by Christians, in many explicitly in part because of their interpretation of Christianity which was the initial point.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - a secular production - explicitly outlaws both actual slavery and Modern Slavery, whilst the scripture of Christianity gives rules for how to appropriately apply and encourages slaves to be obedient and accept their lot.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

One bollocks atheist argument jumped over another atheists arguments back and another bollocks atheist argument jumped over another atheist arguments back and the first bollocks atheist argument jumped over the second atheists back and the second bollocks atheist argument jumped over the third bollocks atheist arguments back.

They were only playing leapfrog
They were only playing leapfrog
They were only playing leapfrog
As the third bollocks atheist argument jumped over the fourth atheist arguments back.

Latest tantrum over? Good. Now then, any chance of you finally attempting at least an argument of your own or are you determined to rely on insult in the hope you'll get away with it that way?

I'll get me coat.

What with all that crashing and burning you've been doing I'm surprised you'd need one.

Anyway, should we now abandon any hope at all of you finally managing an argument to justify your un-argued assertion about what "genuine" morality must be?

Anything?

No? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perce,

Latest tantrum over? Good. Now then, any chance of you finally attempting at least an argument of your own or are you determined to rely on insult in the hope you'll get away with it that way?

What with all that crashing and burning you've been doing I'm surprised you'd need one.

Anyway, should we now abandon any hope at all of you finally managing an argument to justify your un-argued assertion about what "genuine" morality must be?

Anything?

No?

Tantrum? . Taking the piss out of you

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

Tantrum? . Taking the piss out of you

That'll be more evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect making its ever-welcome return then:

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[bluehillside Retd.]

Perce,

So after all your lying, insults, prevarication, diversionary tactics and general fucking around we can sum up your position about morality thus:

“I Perce believe the only “genuine” morality to be some sort of objective property of the universe that certain believers can identify by reference to various “holy” books, but only the ones I happen to think are the real ones. I cannot or will not however even attempt an argument to justify this remarkable assertion such that anyone else should take the claim seriously.”   

Fair enough?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perce,

So after all your lying, insults, prevarication, diversionary tactics and general fucking around we can sum up your position about morality thus:

“I Perce believe the only “genuine” morality to be some sort of objective property of the universe that certain believers can identify by reference to various “holy” books, but only the ones I happen to think are the real ones. I cannot or will not however even attempt an argument to justify this remarkable assertion such that anyone else should take the claim seriously.”   

Fair enough?

I Hillside have taken the words Cultural Hegemony........crossed them out.........and with my bestest crayon have written “Morrils” instead.

[Outrider]

I Hillside have taken the words Cultural Hegemony........crossed them out.........and with my bestest crayon have written “Morrils” instead.

We have collectively generated a set of acceptable behaviours which, over time, we have expanded and amended and adjusted with an eye to improving our lot - what's your alternative?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perce,

That'll be more evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect making its ever-welcome return then:

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Jowelsquivering and Sweat issuing profusely from the sides of his fleshy dome like head, Vlad cautiously entered. Bondsides steely features emerged into the half light. A firefight ensued but an instinctive ceasefire ensued as The long fingers of  Japanese Masterspy Miss SuDo turned on the lights of the lean to.

Bond side spoke first......”That’s a Smith and Wesson Vladfinger....and you’ve had your six”. No more was said as Bondside emptied the last barrel of his Dunning Kruger into Vladfingers well fed form.

[Roses]

Jowelsquivering and Sweat issuing profusely from the sides of his fleshy dome like head, Vlad cautiously entered. Bondsides steely features emerged into the half light. A firefight ensued but an instinctive ceasefire ensued as The long fingers of  Japanese Masterspy Miss SuDo turned on the lights of the lean to.

Bond side spoke first......”That’s a Smith and Wesson Vladfinger....and you’ve had your six”. No more was said as Bondside emptied the last barrel of his Dunning Kruger into Vladfingers well fed form.

You sound as if you require a few barrels of very strong coffee.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We have collectively generated a set of acceptable behaviours which, over time, we have expanded and amended and adjusted with an eye to improving our lot - what's your alternative?

O.

What is it that makes them acceptable? Who is we.

My alternative is a moral realism which is centred on the universe being beloved of God.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You sound as if you require a few barrels of very strong coffee.

You certainly sound as though you need a couple of barrels.

[Outrider]

What is it that makes them acceptable? Who is we.

We are the people it applies to.  What makes it acceptable is that it's part of the social contract we're all invested in to one degree or another.

My alternative is a moral realism which is centred on the universe being beloved of God.

So fairy stories and the delegation of moral responsibility to someone else... how is following instructions 'moral'?

What's the source of this morality - is your god choosing what's moral or not (in which case why is their decision any more valid than ours?) or are they revealing some underlying absolute morality (in which case how do we know they've interpreted it correctly?)

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We are the people it applies to.  What makes it acceptable is that it's part of the social contract we're all invested in to one degree or another.

So fairy stories and the delegation of moral responsibility to someone else... how is following instructions 'moral'?

What's the source of this morality - is your god choosing what's moral or not (in which case why is their decision any more valid than ours?) or are they revealing some underlying absolute morality (in which case how do we know they've interpreted it correctly?)

O.

I’ m sorry but you are still in my view nowhere near having any mechanism of moral arbitration because it cannot be without a point of reference which exists other than everyone having there own.
Now there are atheist moral realists so we are having more of a philosophical debate.

If there is a moral reference point it’s nature cannot be unconscious since unconscious material has not one iota of morality about it and that is why an ultimate moral being is proposed.

[Outrider]

I’ m sorry but you are still in my view nowhere near having any mechanism of moral arbitration because it cannot be without a point of reference which exists other than everyone having there own.

Why are you beholden to some external source of morality - why can morality not be our collective agreement on what's appropriate or desirable behaviour?

Now there are atheist moral realists so we are having more of a philosophical debate.

There may well be, I'd put the same question to them.

If there is a moral reference point it’s nature cannot be unconscious since unconscious material has not one iota of morality about it and that is why an ultimate moral being is proposed.

But that's only after you've decided that humanity isn't a sufficient source for morality, which you've not explained.  And if you're reliant on a 'god' for your morality, why is it alright for that god to decide that what's moral has changed, but it's not OK for us to do the same?

O.