The Kalam-ing presence of Doctor Lane Craig.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Kalam seems to have resurfaced in the atheysphere recently with Cosmic Sceptic a prominent British blogger inviting WLC. To debate. By all accounts the encounter was fairly cordial unsurprising given the calm and sober approach of both men. Cosmic Skeptic feeling that in the light of the debate he felt he needed to refine his approach to the Kalam.

Cosmic Skeptics blogging atheist friend Rationality Rules manner is more akin to some of the atheists on here. Interestingly he has recently commented on the Kalam saying that it is a decidedly Deterministic idea and that theists would therefore have to choose between it and freewill.....

.......and that is where I had to laugh.Can you spot why?

[Gordon]

It must be windy where you are, Vlad: presumably that is why you've decided to do a spot of kite-flying.

I'll leave you to it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just trying to unboring the old message board Mr G.

[SteveH]

Nobody gives a fuck about William Lane Craig, except for evanjellykule pseudo-intellectuals, and the kalam argument is just the first cause argument rephrased, and the first cause argument is fuller of holes than a 50', fine-mesh sieve. It's a philosophical kalamity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody gives a fuck about William Lane Craig, except for evanjellykule pseudo-intellectuals, and the kalam argument is just the first cause argument rephrased, and the first cause argument is fuller of holes than a 50', fine-mesh sieve. It's a philosophical kalamity.

Yes it is a first cause argument
Yes Catholic philosophers are critical of it in that it depends on that wing of science that proposes that the universe had something like a beginning......and science now seems to be reverting back to an infinite universe.
However there is nothing per se to say that a universal beginning is unreasonable. Just as there is nothing unreasonable in putting forward the idea that even something that has been around for ever still needs an explanation for why it's there anyway and there is the argument from contingency which states that an all contingent reality with nothing ultimately necessary for it is a bit of magic.

[jeremyp]

Just as there is nothing unreasonable in putting forward the idea that even something that has been around for ever still needs an explanation

So what's the explanation of God?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So what's the explanation of God?

Well you could say God's existence naturally falls out of the idea that a completely contingent reality with nothing ultimately necessary is in fact what Hillside would call magic.

Now Jeremy if the universe is infinitely old why did it not experience heat death an infinitely long time ago? Dodging  back to questions about God is ducking the issue.

[Roses]

Vlad, I think you have gone too far with your name change this time. I doubt the relatives and fans of Norman Wisdom would be thrilled with your choice, which isn't amusing!

[Aruntraveller]

which isn't amusing!

Neither was Norman Wisdom so it is consistent.

(Cue howls of outrage from Mr Wisdom's fans - that may need to be amended to the singular)

[Nearly Sane]

Ooh Mr Grimsdale!

[SteveH]

Vlad, I think you have gone too far with your name change this time. I doubt the relatives and fans of Norman Wisdom would be thrilled with your choice, which isn't amusing!

I hadn't noticed it until you mentioned it, but I think it's FUCKING HILARIOUS! 

[SteveH]

Neither was Norman Wisdom so it is consistent.

(Cue howls of outrage from Mr Wisdom's fans - that may need to be amended to the singular)

That's not fair - he was very funny when he stuck to the slapstick routines, but I hated his outbursts of glutinous sentimentality.

[Aruntraveller]

That's not fair - he was very funny when he stuck to the slapstick routines, but I hated his outbursts of glutinous sentimentality.

I may have been a little provocative because of a certain po-faced attitude on display 

[SteveH]

 

I may have been a little provocative because of a certain po-faced attitude on display 

[Enki]

Glad to see that Vlad seems to have taken his cue from me. I think his name is highly appropriate.

[jeremyp]

Well you could say God's existence naturally falls out of the idea that a completely contingent reality with nothing ultimately necessary is in fact what Hillside would call magic.

That's not an explanation. It doesn't explain why or how God came to exist, it's merely an argument (a bad one) that God does exist.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's not an explanation. It doesn't explain why or how God came to exist, it's merely an argument (a bad one) that God does exist.

That's not an explanation. It doesn't explain why or how God came to exist, it's merely an argument (a bad one) that God does exist.

So let me get this straight Jeremy you are absolutely happy and need nothing else than the universe just is....but not when it comes to anything else Is there any reason for what amounts to this special pleading?

[jeremyp]

So let me get this straight Jeremy you are absolutely happy and need nothing else than the universe just is....but not when it comes to anything else Is there any reason for what amounts to this special pleading?

So let me get this straight, Vlad. You are absolutely happy and need nothing else than God just is, but not when it comes to anything else. Is there any reason for what amounts to this special pleading?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So let me get this straight, Vlad. You are absolutely happy and need nothing else than God just is, but not when it comes to anything else. Is there any reason for what amounts to this special pleading?

When I say just is I mean that God is the ultimate necessity which exists for it's own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

When you say the universe just is tiny baby pink unicorns are wrapped up in cozy blankets by their parents,carers and significant others and everybody gets a warm feeling........

[Stranger]

When I say just is I mean that God is the ultimate necessity which exists for it's own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

Special pleading. Why should we accept that about your favourite version of god and not (say) the universe or the Great Green Arkleseizure?

The Kalam cosmological argument BTW, is unmitigated drivel from start to finish.

[Outrider]

When I say just is I mean that God is the ultimate necessity which exists for it's own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

Why does this thing - let's call it 'The First Thing' (TFT) to avoid conflating the idea with any of the historical baggage of depictions of gods - bypass the requirement that 'everything that exists has a cause'?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why does this thing - let's call it 'The First Thing' (TFT) to avoid conflating the idea with any of the historical baggage of depictions of gods - bypass the requirement that 'everything that exists has a cause'?

O.

There is no such requirement.
The requirement is that everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Once the sloppy atheist misinterpretation that you have reiterated was exposed, the gaderene rush to demonstrate a Multiverse or that the universe was infinite, began.

[jeremyp]

When I say just is I mean that God is the ultimate necessity which exists for it's own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

When you say the universe just is tiny baby pink unicorns are wrapped up in cozy blankets by their parents,carers and significant others and everybody gets a warm feeling........

When I say "just is", I mean that the Universe is the ultimate necessity which exists for its own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

When you say "God just is", tiny baby pink unicorns are wrapped up in cozy blankets by their parents, carers and significant others and everybody gets a warm feeling........

[Nearly Sane]

There is no such requirement.
The requirement is that everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Once the sloppy atheist misinterpretation that you have reiterated was exposed, the gaderene rush to demonstrate a Multiverse or that the universe was infinite, began.

Doesn't really matter. We can't show that anything that begins to exist has a cause, we can only assume it.

So the first premise isn't evidenced at all. Even if we allow the assumption, then the problem of induction applies.

And that's just the first premise. All versions I have seen of the Kalam are logically flawed.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

When I say "just is", I mean that the Universe is the ultimate necessity which exists for its own internal reasons and not dependent for existence on anything external.

That's fine. Show us something then which doesn't depend for existence on anything external.