Disproofs of God.

[ProfessorDavey]

Actually Prof I can completely agree with this.

Blimey!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Because the Universe is not the things in it.

What is it then Jeremy?

[Outrider]

Although it does offer support to those who think the universe is being recreated moment by moment and certainly if whatever it is these things are popping out of is the necessary entity then it could demonstrate that a contingent universe could have existed forever AND need a source to create it....OUTRIDER take note.

Except that relativity shows us that the universe isn't being recreated moment to moment, there is no universal 'now', time is a dimension that exists in its entirety and our sense of time is a facet of our interpretation of our subjective movement through it.

As to the idea that a universe infinite in age was created... how?  When was the 'before' that allowed something to exist to cause it? When was it not there, in order for there to be an act of creation which created it?  It's a logical contradiction.

Apart from that, though, fair point...

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except that relativity shows us that the universe isn't being recreated moment to moment, there is no universal 'now', time is a dimension that exists in its entirety and our sense of time is a facet of our interpretation of our subjective movement through it.

As to the idea that a universe infinite in age was created... how?  When was the 'before' that allowed something to exist to cause it? When was it not there, in order for there to be an act of creation which created it?  It's a logical contradiction.

Apart from that, though, fair point...

O.

Irrelevant.
If the equivalent of the quantum foam which is pumping out virtual particles has been around forever. It has been doing it forever. What then does the speed of light have to do with it since because of the quantum foam producing virtual particles there have been virtual particles around for ever And ....they are created.

If the universe is down to something like proceeding from a quantum foam. By quantum borrowing. That is how a contingent universe can exist forever.

[Outrider]

Irrelevant.

You suggested that reality was constantly in the process of being recreated, moment to moment.  Relativity and the absence of a universal 'now' shows definitively that this is not the case - that's not 'irrelevant'.

From that continual creation idea you drew the prospect of a cause for an infinite reality, but if that continual creation isn't happening then we're back to a singular, infinite reality where there isn't a 'before' for something causitive to exist, the notion is not viable.

If the equivalent of the quantum foam which is pumping out virtual particles has been around forever. It has been doing it forever. What then does the speed of light have to do with it since because of the quantum foam producing virtual particles there have been virtual particles around for ever And ....they are created.

Who mentioned the speed of light?  The quantum foam is an activity happening within the space-time of our universe - it may or may not also occur outside in some format.

O.

If the universe is down to something like proceeding from a quantum foam. By quantum borrowing. That is how a contingent universe can exist forever.
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[ProfessorDavey]

From that continual creation idea you drew the prospect of a cause for an infinite reality, but if that continual creation isn't happening then we're back to a singular, infinite reality where there isn't a 'before' for something causitive to exist, the notion is not viable.

Who mentioned the speed of light?  The quantum foam is an activity happening within the space-time of our universe - it may or may not also occur outside in some format.

O.

If the universe is down to something like proceeding from a quantum foam. By quantum borrowing. That is how a contingent universe can exist forever.

I think a lot of people struggle with the concept of time - considering it to be linear, constant and directional - thus there must always be a before and an after.

It is the equivalent of someone who lives in a one-dimensional world - so you exist on a line where you can move in one direction only. You see a person ahead of you moving faster in the direction you are moving. Eventually the distance between you and them is too great to see them. Suddenly they appear behind you. For a one-dimension, one direction thinking person this seems impossible. But it is perfectly possible, of course if the line is actually a circle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You suggested that reality was constantly in the process of being recreated, moment to moment.  Relativity and the absence of a universal 'now' shows definitively that this is not the case - that's not 'irrelevant'.

How does the speed of how something is done affect the doing of it. Sloths do thing but at a very slow rate. Time is therefore irrelevant.

From that continual creation idea you drew the prospect of a cause for an infinite reality, but if that continual creation isn't happening then we're back to a singular, infinite reality where there isn't a 'before' for something causitive to exist, the notion is not viable.

or we are back to the contingent universe having a starting point.

So we have three options

Infinite necessary creating infinite contingent universe
Infinite necessary creating finite contingent universe
Infinite contingent universe without necessity
 only two of those do not present a huge logical difficulty.

[jeremyp]

What is it then Jeremy?

It is the Universe.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It is the Universe.

OK since you aren’t making sense. I suppose we are going to have to just guess what it is you are getting at. Have a nice day.

[jeremyp]

OK since you aren’t making sense. I suppose we are going to have to just guess what it is you are getting at. Have a nice day.

Well we've been having to guess what you mean by "God" since the start of the message board.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well we've been having to guess what you mean by "God" since the start of the message board.

When asked how the universe is necessary. “Alright, how is god necessary is no answer”.

Yes....as soon as you explain how the universe is necessary. I am going to land the question “ How then does that mean God cannot exist or be cannot be necessary” on you.

But that requires you to finally do the decent thing and demonstrate how the universe ....which you say is not the contingent things in it..how the universe is the necessary entity.

[Outrider]

How does the speed of how something is done affect the doing of it. Sloths do thing but at a very slow rate. Time is therefore irrelevant. or we are back to the contingent universe having a starting point.

The speed at which something is done changes the rate at which the individual moves through time, and therefore you can have more than one frame of reference for time co-existing.  Therefore there can be no universal now, from which we can conclude that time is not a singular point, it exists as a dimension... which still doesn't explain where speed (of light or anything else) came into the equation

So we have three options

Infinite necessary creating infinite contingent universe
Infinite necessary creating finite contingent universe
Infinite contingent universe without necessity

You are missing an entire possibility of a broader reality outside the universe(s) which may or may not be necessary or contingent in its own right.

only two of those do not present a huge logical difficulty.

All three of those present huge logical difficulties or there would no longer be a debate about them, we'd have a general agreement on which was the case and our philosophy students could go back to contemplating the moral implications of the Pokemon universe.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well we've been having to guess what you mean by "God" since the start of the message board.

God is the necessary entity. That has been said several times.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The speed at which something is done changes the rate at which the individual moves through time, and therefore you can have more than one frame of reference for time co-existing.  Therefore there can be no universal now, from which we can conclude that time is not a singular point, it exists as a dimension... which still doesn't explain where speed (of light or anything else) came into the equation

As nice as all that might be what does it have to do with say the quantum whatever creating virtual particles for an infinite length of time?

You are missing an entire possibility of a broader reality outside the universe(s) which may or may not be necessary

No, I think that comes under infinite necessity

or contingent in its own right.

In one sense you aren’t contingent in your own right but in whatever you are contingent on’s right. That aside I have included it as “an infinite contingency without necessity”( AKA powerful sorcery less  plausible than magic).

[Outrider]

God is the necessary entity. That has been said several times.

That capitalised 'God' though, is doing an awful lot of work.  To appropriate a possible necessary element of reality's existence and transpose a complete mythology/theology onto it is a significant overreach.

A god, potentially, could be a necessary entity, but there are other logical possibilities and even if it is a god, it's a far cry from the necessarily being the Abrahamic one.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

God is the necessary entity. That has been said several times.

You can say that until the cows come home - it doesn't make it true. And JeremyP is correct - until you define what you mean by god (even in the theoretical manner) it is impossible to even engage in such a discussion.

And the problem, as Steve has found out, is that it often ends up as a purely circular argument - in effect you define god as the necessary entity and use that definition to conclude that god is essential for the universe to exist, and therefore as the universe exists, so must god. It is a non-sense argument of the highest order.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

All three of those present huge logical difficulties or there would no longer be a debate about them, we'd have a general agreement on which was the case and our philosophy students could go back to contemplating the moral implications of the Pokemon universe.

O.

Infinities are a problem as we have long known. Whether some entity that has been around for ever has the same problem as an infinity of entities has.....i’m Not so sure.

However, that being said there is one of the options that is in a league of its own and that is contingency without necessity.

Definitionally it should be reclassified as necessity even if it popped out of nothing. So no Outrider.....infinite contingency without necessity not only takes the Oscar but on the same day wins the lottery, scoops the sweepstake, comes up on Ernie, wins the pools, gets a peerage, is voted man of the year, comes first in the Miss world contest, becomes a grandmother, gets the Nobel prize and shouts “bingo” all at the same time.

[Stranger]

God is the necessary entity. That has been said several times.

Utterly meaningless.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can say that until the cows come home - it doesn't make it true. And JeremyP is correct - until you define what you mean by god (even in the theoretical manner) it is impossible to even engage in such a discussion.

And the problem, as Steve has found out, is that it often ends up as a purely circular argument - in effect you define god as the necessary entity and use that definition to conclude that god is essential for the universe to exist, and therefore as the universe exists, so must god. It is a non-sense argument of the highest order.

It was put forward here to counter Jeremy’s complaint that I never say what God is.......perhaps read posts before replying Prof?

[Outrider]

Infinities are a problem as we have long known.

No. You keep saying you've established that infinities are a problem, William Lane Craig conveniently has an unspecified problem with infinities, but so far as I can see the only issue arising from infinity that has been posited was someone trying to treat infinity as a real number rather than a concept and wondering why arithmetic didn't work.

However, that being said there is one of the options that is in a league of its own and that is contingency without necessity.

That's only an issue for you because you have a blind spot for an infinite timeframe where issues of contingency and necessity have no meaning.

Definitionally it should be reclassified as necessity even if it popped out of nothing.

It's infinite - it didn't 'pop out' of anything, there as no 'thing' from which it could pop out, and no time at which it didn't exist for it to 'pop' into or out of.

So no Outrider.....infinite contingency without necessity not only takes the Oscar but on the same day wins the lottery, scoops the sweepstake, comes up on Ernie, wins the pools, gets a peerage, is voted man of the year, comes first in the Miss world contest, becomes a grandmother, gets the Nobel prize and shouts “bingo” all at the same time.

And all because the Lady Gentleman loves Milk Tray the 'infinity problem'.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Utterly meaningless.

Doesn’t seem to be a problem when one says the universe is the necessary entity.

Now if you say it’s just the word God that is meaningless then your nicked for God dodging.

[Stranger]

When asked how the universe is necessary. “Alright, how is god necessary is no answer”.

Yes....as soon as you explain how the universe is necessary. I am going to land the question “ How then does that mean God cannot exist or be cannot be necessary” on you.

But that requires you to finally do the decent thing and demonstrate how the universe ....which you say is not the contingent things in it..how the universe is the necessary entity.

You're being a total hypocrite apart from anything else. You haven't defined how anything at all can be necessary.

You've still not grasped the buden of proof.

And as I keep on saying, and you've now ignored at least three times, the space-time manifold doesn't appear to be obviously contingent on anything else - regardless of whether any of its dimensions are infinite or not.

And you still haven't addressed the contradiction of any thinking, choice making entity necessarily requiring time in order to exist.

[Stranger]

Doesn’t seem to be a problem when one says the universe is the necessary entity.

We have good reason to think the universe actually exists. Nobody, as far as I know, has made any claim other than it might be necessary.

Now if you say it’s just the word God that is meaningless then your nicked for God dodging.

The unqualified word "God" is meaningless (because there are way too many different interpretations of it for it to convey anything useful by itself), as is the claim that it is necessary. I can't dodge something that doesn't mean anything.

[ProfessorDavey]

It was put forward here to counter Jeremy’s complaint that I never say what God is.......perhaps read posts before replying Prof?

I do read posts - thanks Vlad. That you don't like or understand my response doesn't mean I haven't read the post.

Defining god as the necessary entity for the universe is entirely meaningless as it really tells us nothing about god at all - and indeed could lead to the conclusion that god is simply energy, or the unifying theory of relativity. That would, of course, crush your notion of the loving judeochristian god into dust. I don't believe that is your intention, so defining god in this manner is merely a (not very subtle) trick to try and argue that god exists, and by inference you mean the judeochristian god.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No. You keep saying you've established that infinities are a problem, William Lane Craig conveniently has an unspecified problem with infinities, but so far as I can see the only issue arising from infinity that has been posited was someone trying to treat infinity as a real number rather than a concept and wondering why arithmetic didn't work.

That's only an issue for you because you have a blind spot for an infinite timeframe where issues of contingency and necessity have no meaning.

It's infinite - it didn't 'pop out' of anything, there as no 'thing' from which it could pop out, and no time at which it didn't exist for it to 'pop' into or out of.

And all because the Lady Gentleman loves Milk Tray the 'infinity problem'.

O.

If you do not realise how illogical contingency without necessity is even after the explanations provided then I’m not sure anyone here can help you.

If there is something that doesn’t need or doesn’t have an external explanation then that is what is called a necessary entity. Timeframes have nothing to do with it.