Author Topic: Disproofs of God.  (Read 41649 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #400 on: August 17, 2020, 08:40:45 PM »
Nice to see you assert necessity/necessary (terms you use interchangeably which show as ever you don't define terms), as being meaningful. But yet again no demonstration.
The infinitely owed £5 mental exercise is a good demo imho of how infinite regressions are not productive and of the concept of necessity. The last person on here to try it to my recollection had to admit that at some point a fiver actually has to be placed into the system. But you might be able to solve the conundrum.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #401 on: August 17, 2020, 08:43:30 PM »
The infinitely owed £5 mental exercise is a good demo imho of how infinite regressions are not productive and of the concept of necessity. The last person on here to try it to my recollection had to admit that at some point a fiver actually has to be placed into the system. But you might be able to solve the conundrum.
Your problem, not mine.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #402 on: August 17, 2020, 08:48:23 PM »
I fear gang there is going to be no progress from atheists on the question of why a universe until someone declares full throatedly that for the universe to contain it's own necessity there has to be matter with special properties and then take the issue of what that material must be like fully by the horns.

Short of that honchos, honchas and amoebas your just shootin' the messenger.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #403 on: August 17, 2020, 08:50:40 PM »
I fear gang there is going to be no progress from atheists on the question of why a universe until someone declares full throatedly that for the universe to contain it's own necessity there has to be matter with special properties and then take the issue of what that material must be like fully by the horns.

Short of that honchos, honchas and amoebas your just shootin' the messenger.
and Vlad evades the need to show necessity again.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #404 on: August 17, 2020, 08:50:54 PM »
Your problem, not mine.
Damn right......you're a humian,an antiphilosopher. Too light for heavy intellectual work, Too heavy for light intellectual work and can't be arsed to do any intellectual work.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #405 on: August 17, 2020, 08:55:19 PM »
Damn right......you're a humian,an antiphilosopher. Too light for heavy intellectual work, Too heavy for light intellectual work and can't be arsed to do any intellectual work.
just to help you out - intellectual work is not spunking on the floor and then licking it up - despite your approach.

jeremyp

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #406 on: August 17, 2020, 09:43:25 PM »
No, my God is proposed as an eternal entity, Popping out of nothing is a wee Hume-ian dodge.
"Eternal" implies that your god exists in time. Where did time and your god pop out of?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #407 on: August 18, 2020, 07:57:59 AM »
What is the status quo and default position in an argument about necessity.
What is the status quo and default position in an argument about how or whether the universe came about?

SteveH

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #408 on: August 18, 2020, 08:04:25 AM »
No, my God is proposed as an eternal entity, Popping out of nothing is a wee Hume-ian dodge.
You can't just propose God into existence.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #409 on: August 18, 2020, 08:21:39 AM »
A is owed £5 by B who can only give A the £5 when he gets it from C who can only give it to B when he gets it from C.

Now I think we will never get our fiver if the sequence is infinitely regressed. So somewhere along the line the line the fiver has to be introduced or it has been around for ever or it has popped out nothing.

Nowhere then is it the infinite regression which explains the fiver.

In all three there is a necessary entity.

Roses

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #410 on: August 18, 2020, 08:44:53 AM »
A is owed £5 by B who can only give A the £5 when he gets it from C who can only give it to B when he gets it from C.

Now I think we will never get our fiver if the sequence is infinitely regressed. So somewhere along the line the line the fiver has to be introduced or it has been around for ever or it has popped out nothing.

Nowhere then is it the infinite regression which explains the fiver.

In all three there is a necessary entity.

You definitely need to take more water with it. ::)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #411 on: August 18, 2020, 09:19:34 AM »
You can't just propose God into existence.
God, or something very much like him comes from the argument from contingency. Something classically naturalistic does not. An infinitely existent being or something which pops out of nothing
are not characteristically classically naturalistic.

If we are playing by naturalistic rules we need evidence for infinite existence or something that popped out of nothing as we do for God. Which is why I’m always asking those who have suggested that the universe has existed infinitely to show what it is that is necessary and from now on what is infinite or miraculously just appeared about the universe.....to which we could add show us what just is about the universe..................if we are going to play the naturalist card.

As it is any expectation that it is just God who needs proof is just special pleading.

SteveH

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #412 on: August 18, 2020, 09:22:34 AM »
You definitely need to take more water with it. ::)
You could try making the tiny bit of effort needed to follow an argument for a change. Person 1 is owed £5 by P2, who in owed £5 by P3, who is owed £5 by P4, and so on for ever, because there is an infinitely long chain of debtors and creditors. None of them can pay the £5 they owe until they get the £5 they are owed, which means that no-one will ever get the money they are owed. It is supposed to prove the impossibility of an infinite regression. Whether it does so is another matter, but the argument is really quite simple.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 09:46:43 AM by Wilkins Micawber »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

jeremyp

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #413 on: August 18, 2020, 09:30:05 AM »
A is owed £5 by B who can only give A the £5 when he gets it from C who can only give it to B when he gets it from C.

Now I think we will never get our fiver if the sequence is infinitely regressed. So somewhere along the line the line the fiver has to be introduced or it has been around for ever or it has popped out nothing.

Nowhere then is it the infinite regression which explains the fiver.

In all three there is a necessary entity.

You haven't explained why your god is not subject to infinite regress.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #414 on: August 18, 2020, 09:30:19 AM »
You definitely need to take more water with it. ::)
To get a laugh out of an old joke Floo you need to
A) vary it a bit eg either you need to put more water with it or I do. That brings out the tutu OJ’s nature of my posts in a way just saying you need more water with this.
B) Use it in a different context now and then
C) Really Labour it so the idea of progressively working harder on a joke to get fewer laughs becomes the joke itself.

Repition doesn’t always fail.......for example if you replied to this post by saying I need to take more water with it.

jeremyp

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #415 on: August 18, 2020, 09:34:22 AM »
God, or something very much like him comes from the argument from contingency.
No she doesn't.

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Something classically naturalistic does not. An infinitely existent being or something which pops out of nothing
are not characteristically classically naturalistic.
OK. Let's have an infinite something and call it the "cosmos"

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As it is any expectation that it is just God who needs proof is just special pleading.
As is an expectation that it is just God who does not need proof.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #416 on: August 18, 2020, 09:34:57 AM »
You haven't explained why your god is not subject to infinite regress.
Infinite regression is not productive as I have shown because everyone is waiting on someone an infinitely long time ago and only gets a fiver if someone puts one in. In other words I guess i’m Saying nothing is.

However if God WAS so what?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #417 on: August 18, 2020, 09:39:29 AM »
No she doesn't.
OK. Let's have an infinite something and call it the "cosmos"
As is an expectation that it is just God who does not need proof.
Ok Jeremy call it cosmos. Now show me something that fits the bill namely it is Cosmotic and it’s been around for ever.. As far as we know there is nothing empirically observable that isn’t contingent.

I have accepted God needs proof

jeremyp

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #418 on: August 18, 2020, 09:41:04 AM »
Infinite regression is not productive as I have shown because everyone is waiting on someone an infinitely long time ago and only gets a fiver if someone puts one in. In other words I guess i’m Saying nothing is.

However if God WAS so what?
If time is infinite, how long did God wait before creating the Universe?
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jeremyp

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #419 on: August 18, 2020, 09:43:39 AM »
Ok Jeremy call it cosmos. Now show me something that fits the bill
You show me a god first.

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namely it is Cosmotic and it’s been around for ever..

Bzzzzttt wrong. Time is a property of this Universe which is a part of the cosmos (assuming the cosmos exists). It doesn't make sense to say the cosmos has been around forever.


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As far as we know there is nothing empirically observable that isn’t contingent.
Who's claiming the cosmos is observable?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #420 on: August 18, 2020, 09:59:10 AM »
If time is infinite, how long did God wait before creating the Universe?
An infinitely long time?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #421 on: August 18, 2020, 10:01:10 AM »
You show me a god first.

Bzzzzttt wrong. Time is a property of this Universe which is a part of the cosmos (assuming the cosmos exists). It doesn't make sense to say the cosmos has been around forever.

Who's claiming the cosmos is observable?
If it is not observable then it is a conjecture based on an argument.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #422 on: August 18, 2020, 10:10:11 AM »
You show me a god first.

Bzzzzttt wrong. Time is a property of this Universe which is a part of the cosmos (assuming the cosmos exists). It doesn't make sense to say the cosmos has been around forever.

Who's claiming the cosmos is observable?
You show me a god first.

Bzzzzttt wrong. Time is a property of this Universe which is a part of the cosmos (assuming the cosmos exists). It doesn't make sense to say the cosmos has been around forever.

Who's claiming the cosmos is observable?
Answer 1  you are joshing, of course although if we are playing by naturalistic rules, a proposal should be detectable by naturalistic means. I’m afraid that means we’ve already dispensed with God but now you are required to empirically and naturalistically show a cosmos.

I can wait.....10.....9.....8.......7.......

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #423 on: August 18, 2020, 10:53:57 AM »
Cap'n Pigeon,

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How can physics have anything to say about something coming from nothing? But were not talking about physics here are we Hillside? no....we are talking about your darling Lawrence Krauss and his bowl of pedigree chum.

Yet again, physics says a lot about possible answers - they're called conjectures or hypotheses. These conjectures and hypotheses may or may not turn out to be correct if and when the methods and tools of physics ever develop sufficiently to verify them. You're basically someone pre-Einstein saying, "Newtonian physics can't explain the very large and the very small, therefore elves".

Now here's the thing - and you need to concentrate here - even if we never obtain the physics necessary to provide a logically cogent or evidenced answer, still that would give no you support whatever for filling the explanatory gap with, "so it's a magic god then".


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The necessary entity does not need or have any external explanation.

If you're relying on magic for your method, any wild guess doesn't need anything - it's all white noise.

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Please provide then what it is in or about the universe which fulfils that criteria. Lane Craig at least has a magician in his scheme.

WLC (and you) have precisely magic in your "scheme" - what else would you call it when you assert that no rules of logic apply to your speculation, so anything goes? 

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As for plausible alternatives stop offering contingent entities which are contingent on themselves or anything in nature. Stop turdpolishing the shiteings of Krauss. Stop supporting the ''there may not be a  necessary entity'' bollocks of Nearly Sane.

Just repeating your stupidity doesn't make it less stupid. You do realise that right?

So, just to be clear - do you have anything other than, "currently we don't have a scientific answer, therefore magic" to offer?

It's ok, you can say "no" if you like. We all know that's all you have in any case.       
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 11:24:28 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Disproofs of God.
« Reply #424 on: August 18, 2020, 10:57:11 AM »
Cap'n Pigeon,

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Answer 1  you are joshing, of course although if we are playing by naturalistic rules, a proposal should be detectable by naturalistic means. I’m afraid that means we’ve already dispensed with God but now you are required to empirically and naturalistically show a cosmos.

No, what "dispenses" with "God" is your utter inability to suggest a method of any kind - naturalistic or otherwise - to test the claim. Your claim, your problem.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God