Author Topic: Mark's use of Matthew and Luke  (Read 39536 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2020, 03:25:10 PM »
Yes there's also a lot of people that take a similar interest in the works of Homer that seem equally as credible as bible stories are to me.
That's a fair comparison. I don't think The Iliad was written down in the Bronze Age either.
Quote
Nothing wrong with the study of either one of those subjects although I might find it a bit more worrisome with people that actually take the magical, mysterious and superstitional elements to seriously.

Regards, ippy.
Taking the magicking seriously is different from taking the documents seriously as pieces of literature.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2020, 03:38:14 PM »
I suggest you read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrmann.
But from what I've read and seen Ehrmann seems to be arguing exactly the opposite of what you claim.

Check out his piece at the start of the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRHjZCKRIu4

He is constantly and continually stating that we do not and cannot know what the original gospel texts were - the best we can achieve is to use the earliest extant fragments and text but that we have no way of know how loose these were to the originals. Indeed he goes further in stating that alternations, mistakes, additions, deletions in the first decades following from the original texts was far more likely than later as the people doing the transcribing and copying were, effectively, well meaning amateurs rather than professional scribes or monks as happened later.

His argument in this video (more recent than Misquoting Jesus) seems to align pretty well perfectly with the points I have been making about the possibility of changes in text from original writing to earliest extant copy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2020, 03:52:13 PM »
But from what I've read and seen Ehrmann seems to be arguing exactly the opposite of what you claim.

Check out his piece at the start of the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRHjZCKRIu4

He is constantly and continually stating that we do not and cannot know what the original gospel texts were - the best we can achieve is to use the earliest extant fragments and text but that we have no way of know how loose these were to the originals. Indeed he goes further in stating that alternations, mistakes, additions, deletions in the first decades following from the original texts was far more likely than later as the people doing the transcribing and copying were, effectively, well meaning amateurs rather than professional scribes or monks as happened later.

His argument in this video (more recent than Misquoting Jesus) seems to align pretty well perfectly with the points I have been making about the possibility of changes in text from original writing to earliest extant copy.
Check out the particular section around 1hr 18mins in which Ehrmann is responding to Wallace's point that most of the changes don't matter. Ehrmann is very clear that although we might know about changes that arose after the first extant manuscipts that we do not and cannot know what changes occurred prior to the earliest existing manuscripts. My point exactly.

ippy

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2020, 05:34:12 PM »
That's a fair comparison. I don't think The Iliad was written down in the Bronze Age either.Taking the magicking seriously is different from taking the documents seriously as pieces of literature.

At the end of your post j p, you wrote: 'Taking the magicking seriously is different from taking the documents seriously as pieces of literature'.

I was wondering j p, why you've repeated back to me, in this post, something I had said previously, O K I worded it differently to you?

Regards, ippy

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2020, 03:53:36 PM »
At the end of your post j p, you wrote: 'Taking the magicking seriously is different from taking the documents seriously as pieces of literature'.

I was wondering j p, why you've repeated back to me, in this post, something I had said previously, O K I worded it differently to you?

Regards, ippy
Maybe the distinction needed to be reiterated because your position seems confused. After all, you had earlier stated that you didn't see the point of threads such as this one.
The thread is essentially concerned with academic questions, though Spud approaches the problems from the point of view of a believer and is therefore subject to a lot of confirmation bias. Conversely, Spud would claim that JP and the Prof are also biased by their non-belief over what conclusions they come up with.
However, your earlier assertion that supernatural claims should be established as fact before such a discussion can begin is just silly.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2020, 08:37:12 PM »
The thread is essentially concerned with academic questions, though Spud approaches the problems from the point of view of a believer and is therefore subject to a lot of confirmation bias.
Absolutely - note Spuds claim that the gnostic gospels could not be reliable as they don't claim Jesus to be a deity.

Conversely, Spud would claim that JP and the Prof are also biased by their non-belief over what conclusions they come up with.
I don't think that claim is sustainable at all. Was bias am I confirming. All I have been saying is that because we do not have gospel texts earlier than about 200AD, with the exception of some small fragments we cannot reasonable claim that the evidence we have (the extant fragments or texts) necessary reflects what was originally written decades or centuries earlier.

I'd make the same claim about any similar ancients texts.

And actually the fact that we do or do not know what was originally written in the gospels has no bearing on whether the claims in those texts are actually true. Even if the earliest fragments or text are completely unaltered from the original gospel tells us nothing about the veracity of the claims therein.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2020, 09:08:24 PM »
Absolutely - note Spuds claim that the gnostic gospels could not be reliable as they don't claim Jesus to be a deity.
I don't think that claim is sustainable at all. Was bias am I confirming. All I have been saying is that because we do not have gospel texts earlier than about 200AD, with the exception of some small fragments we cannot reasonable claim that the evidence we have (the extant fragments or texts) necessary reflects what was originally written decades or centuries earlier.

I'd make the same claim about any similar ancients texts.

And actually the fact that we do or do not know what was originally written in the gospels has no bearing on whether the claims in those texts are actually true. Even if the earliest fragments or text are completely unaltered from the original gospel tells us nothing about the veracity of the claims therein.
You seem to be missing DU's point and answering something he didn't say.

Spud

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2020, 12:19:19 AM »
Quote
Absolutely - note Spuds claim that the gnostic gospels could not be reliable as they don't claim Jesus to be a deity.
If that was wrong, sorry. I wanted to mention them because they could be evidence that the apostles existed, which owlswing was asking for. Apart from that, I probably shouldn't have mentioned them as I haven't read or studied them.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 12:22:52 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2020, 12:43:38 AM »

And actually the fact that we do or do not know what was originally written in the gospels has no bearing on whether the claims in those texts are actually true. Even if the earliest fragments or text are completely unaltered from the original gospel tells us nothing about the veracity of the claims therein.
The question is, were they written pre-AD70. If the internal evidence suggests they were, then this is a pretty serious thing because the temple's destruction would have been impossible to predict. You will all continue to be wrong about the gospels as long as you cling on to this assumption that they were written post-70, because you won't trust them.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 01:15:34 AM by Spud »

Owlswing

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2020, 05:00:53 AM »

The question is, were they written pre-AD70. If the internal evidence suggests they were, then this is a pretty serious thing because the temple's destruction would have been impossible to predict. You will all continue to be wrong about the gospels as long as you cling on to this assumption that they were written post-70 because you won't trust them.


This is all very well if you can PROVE that they were written pre-AD70, which you can't.

Until you can PROVE that they were written pre-AD70 it is a reasonable assumption that they are complete and utter rubbish made up to con money out of a gullible public, a con that the Christian churches still pursue to the tune of milllions, if not billions. of pounds per year.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Gordon

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2020, 08:13:20 AM »
The question is, were they written pre-AD70. If the internal evidence suggests they were, then this is a pretty serious thing because the temple's destruction would have been impossible to predict. You will all continue to be wrong about the gospels as long as you cling on to this assumption that they were written post-70, because you won't trust them.

Your silliness seems boundless, Spud. The reason the 'gospels' can't be trusted is that their provenance (including later additions or revisions) is for the most part unknown.

Roses

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2020, 08:36:50 AM »
Even if the gospels were written when Jesus was alive, which is unlikely, the less than credible stories they contain could be highly exaggerated or untrue.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2020, 09:45:41 AM »
Even if the gospels were written when Jesus was alive, which is unlikely, the less than credible stories they contain could be highly exaggerated or untrue.
Havent you heard it's alright in atheists circles to believe a universe can pop out of nowhere?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2020, 09:49:45 AM »
Havent you heard it's alright in atheists circles to believe a universe can pop out of nowhere?
Haven't you heard in Christian circles it's ok to bugger children?

Roses

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2020, 10:33:58 AM »
Havent you heard it's alright in atheists circles to believe a universe can pop out of nowhere?

Whereas the religious think god popped out of nowhere.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2020, 10:56:06 AM »
Whereas the religious think god popped out of nowhere.
Though Vlad's post is a complete misrepresentation, don't think I've ever encountered any religious person who thinks that
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 10:58:46 AM by Nearly Sane »

Roses

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2020, 11:22:36 AM »
Though Vlad's post is a complete misrepresentation, don't think I've ever encountered any religious person who thinks that

Many think god was always there, nothing created it.   
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Aruntraveller

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2020, 11:35:20 AM »
Many think god was always there, nothing created it.

So your claim that God popped out of nowhere is in error, if they think "God was always there".
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2020, 11:40:05 AM »
Many think god was always there, nothing created it.
Which is precisely not 'popped out of nowhere'

Roses

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2020, 11:56:35 AM »
Which is precisely not 'popped out of nowhere'

So from where did it come?
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Aruntraveller

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2020, 12:02:05 PM »
So from where did it come?

Everlasting, eternal. A bit like lies from Conservative governments.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2020, 12:03:53 PM »
So from where did it come?
I don't believe in a god. But saying something is eternal does  not equal 'popped out of nowhere'.

Roses

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2020, 12:05:13 PM »
I don't believe in a god. But saying something is eternal does  not equal 'popped out of nowhere'.

I disagree.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2020, 12:06:11 PM »
I disagree.
Logically you are just wrong.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Mark's editing of Matthew
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2020, 12:39:39 PM »
The question is, were they written pre-AD70. If the internal evidence suggests they were, then this is a pretty serious thing because the temple's destruction would have been impossible to predict. You will all continue to be wrong about the gospels as long as you cling on to this assumption that they were written post-70, because you won't trust them.
Spud - regardless of when the original might have been written we know with absolute certainty that every single copy of the gospels, whether fragment or full text, was written long after 70AD. As such they could easily have been amended retrospectively with hindsight knowledge of the destruction of the second temple.

But lets, for the sake of argument, assume we have an original text (we don't of course) that we know for certain was written prior to AD70 (we don't of course) that predicted the destruction of the second temple. So what. All sorts of texts make predictions and sometimes those predictions turn out to be correct - in those countless other examples we don't assume that the predictor must be a god, so why should we in this case.

But I'll go back to my first point - regardless of when the gospels were originally written the ones we have available to us were, at the earliest, written decades or centuries later and we have no way of knowing how the versions we have compare to the original.