Author Topic: Evidence of God  (Read 25166 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #325 on: February 15, 2021, 06:28:39 PM »
Vlad,

More evidence (indeed any "evidence" would be helpful). It’s been a while since you tried the survivorship bias fallacy though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Given enough asteroids hitting enough moons such a thing could happen with no god involved. Fantastically unlikely events happen at the time - consider the fact of your existence for example. How many bajillions of events must have happened since the big bang do you suppose for you to be here? Is that evidence for “God” too do you think as you seem think very unlikely = god?
So I take it that this would be insufficent evidence to shake your stentorian new atheism.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #326 on: February 15, 2021, 06:32:18 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
So I take it that this would be insufficent evidence to shake your stentorian new atheism.

No, it wouldn't be "evidence" at all for someone capable of reasoning. Try reading the Wiki article I linked you to to see where you went wrong.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #327 on: February 16, 2021, 03:24:16 PM »
Vlad,

No, it wouldn't be "evidence" at all for someone capable of reasoning. Try reading the Wiki article I linked you to to see where you went wrong.
The purpose of this thread is to hopefully prompt an answer to the question ''what would get you to believe?'' Regarding expecting an asteroid to  crash into the moon and the debris to spell out the name of god in every language, given that the universe is mediocre (in the sense that it is pretty samey throughout), to believe that this occurance is common place seems to be the less reasonable choice....and having plumped for it your doubts about other extremely unlikely events seem like special pleading.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #328 on: February 16, 2021, 03:35:49 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
The purpose of this thread is to hopefully prompt an answer to the question ''what would get you to believe?'' Regarding expecting an asteroid to  crash into the moon and the debris to spell out the name of god in every language, given that the universe is mediocre (in the sense that it is pretty samey throughout), to believe that this occurance is common place seems to be the less reasonable choice....and having plumped for it your doubts about other extremely unlikely events seem like special pleading.

The universe may be "pretty samey throughout" yet the number of shapes snowflakes can be is for practical purposes infinite, so there is no special pleading. Your mistake here is to assume that the great unlikeliness of an event is evidence for it having an intentional cause, in particular when you apply your own narrative to infer its meaning. It isn’t though. Consider for example the number of ways a randomly shuffled standard deck of cards can be dealt. It’s called 52 Factorial (52!). Written out, the number is:

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000.

So how unlikely is it would you say that any particular order of 52 cards would be dealt?

Here’s a clue:   

“This number is beyond astronomically large. I say beyond astronomically large because most numbers that we already consider to be astronomically large are mere infinitesimal fractions of this number. So, just how large is it? Let's try to wrap our puny human brains around the magnitude of this number with a fun little theoretical exercise. Start a timer that will count down the number of seconds from 52! to 0. We're going to see how much fun we can have before the timer counts down all the way.

Start by picking your favorite spot on the equator. You're going to walk around the world along the equator, but take a very leisurely pace of one step every billion years. The equatorial circumference of the Earth is 40,075,017 meters. Make sure to pack a deck of playing cards, so you can get in a few trillion hands of solitaire between steps. After you complete your round the world trip, remove one drop of water from the Pacific Ocean. Now do the same thing again: walk around the world at one billion years per step, removing one drop of water from the Pacific Ocean each time you circle the globe. The Pacific Ocean contains 707.6 million cubic kilometers of water. Continue until the ocean is empty. When it is, take one sheet of paper and place it flat on the ground. Now, fill the ocean back up and start the entire process all over again, adding a sheet of paper to the stack each time you've emptied the ocean.

Do this until the stack of paper reaches from the Earth to the Sun. Take a glance at the timer, you will see that the three left-most digits haven't even changed. You still have 8.063e67 more seconds to go. 1 Astronomical Unit, the distance from the Earth to the Sun, is defined as 149,597,870.691 kilometers. So, take the stack of papers down and do it all over again. One thousand times more. Unfortunately, that still won't do it. There are still more than 5.385e67 seconds remaining. You're just about a third of the way done.

To pass the remaining time, start shuffling your deck of cards. Every billion years deal yourself a 5-card poker hand. Each time you get a royal flush, buy yourself a lottery ticket. A royal flush occurs in one out of every 649,740 hands. If that ticket wins the jackpot, throw a grain of sand into the Grand Canyon. Keep going and when you've filled up the canyon with sand, remove one ounce of rock from Mt. Everest. Now empty the canyon and start all over again. When you've leveled Mt. Everest, look at the timer, you still have 5.364e67 seconds remaining. Mt. Everest weighs about 357 trillion pounds. You barely made a dent. If you were to repeat this 255 times, you would still be looking at 3.024e64 seconds. The timer would finally reach zero sometime during your 256th attempt.”

(https://boingboing.net/2017/03/02/how-to-imagine-52-factorial.html)

And yet these odds against the specific hand we deal actually being that hand instead of another one is something we barely notice.

So would you say that your example of an asteroid hitting the moon and the debris spelling “god” is more or less likely than a random distribution of 52 cards? It’s impossible to say of course, but there’s no doubt is there that both are fantastically unlikely events. And yet you seem to think that a random hand of cards wouldn’t be evidence for “god”, but the asteroid example would be just because you happen to attach your own meaning to one outcome but not to the other. Why?

I suggest you start with the link I gave you to the Wiki article about survivorship bias…     

Incidentally, as well as your car crash in reasoning you might want to consider too that your asteroid example would break no universal laws – it would just be an unusual event from our perspective so would be a Poundland trick for a god to do. You’d have been better advised suggesting something like, say, “what if the visible stars suddenly one night rearranged themselves to say, “Hi – God here!”?” You’d still have the problem of knowing whether our basic understanding of physics was wrong such that gravity wasn’t as we thought it was, but it’d at least give more pause than would rocks acting according only to known laws and forces.     
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 04:03:08 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Andy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #329 on: February 16, 2021, 03:45:14 PM »
The purpose of this thread is to hopefully prompt an answer to the question ''what would get you to believe?'' Regarding expecting an asteroid to  crash into the moon and the debris to spell out the name of god in every language, given that the universe is mediocre (in the sense that it is pretty samey throughout), to believe that this occurance is common place seems to be the less reasonable choice....and having plumped for it your doubts about other extremely unlikely events seem like special pleading.

The irony being that your example is a case of special pleading for the existence of God since you simultaneously believe that no matter the outcome of the debris, you attribute it to God.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #330 on: February 17, 2021, 01:21:45 PM »
The purpose of this thread is to hopefully prompt an answer to the question ''what would get you to believe?'' Regarding expecting an asteroid to  crash into the moon and the debris to spell out the name of god in every language, given that the universe is mediocre (in the sense that it is pretty samey throughout), to believe that this occurance is common place seems to be the less reasonable choice....and having plumped for it your doubts about other extremely unlikely events seem like special pleading.

We have no idea how many universes there are, we have wildly varying ideas about how many planets there might be in this one alone*, and of those we have no idea how many are inhabitable, then inhabited by sentient organisms... given that potentially incredibly vast number, and the human capacity to find patterns in otherwise random distributions, even your asteroid example I suspect wouldn't be enough for me, and probably at least some others.

* A mid-range figure extrapolated from the Kepler space probe data in 2013 estimated that there could be 40 billion habitable planets in the Milky Way, one of just somewhere between 200 billion and a trillion galaxies in this universe. Producing a debris patter than includes identifiable shapes, given human pareidolia, once in 13+ billion years amongst 40 x 1021 planets just in the universe we know exists suddenly doesn't seem particularly significant.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #331 on: February 17, 2021, 04:31:04 PM »
We have no idea how many universes there are, we have wildly varying ideas about how many planets there might be in this one alone*, and of those we have no idea how many are inhabitable, then inhabited by sentient organisms... given that potentially incredibly vast number, and the human capacity to find patterns in otherwise random distributions, even your asteroid example I suspect wouldn't be enough for me, and probably at least some others.

* A mid-range figure extrapolated from the Kepler space probe data in 2013 estimated that there could be 40 billion habitable planets in the Milky Way, one of just somewhere between 200 billion and a trillion galaxies in this universe. Producing a debris patter than includes identifiable shapes, given human pareidolia, once in 13+ billion years amongst 40 x 1021 planets just in the universe we know exists suddenly doesn't seem particularly significant.

O.
This is all very well but doesn’t really answer the question of what it would take for you to believe in God.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #332 on: February 17, 2021, 04:55:37 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
This is all very well but doesn’t really answer the question of what it would take for you to believe in God.

The abandonment of my critical faculties.

(I set out where you n most recently went wrong a couple of post ago by the way.)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #333 on: February 18, 2021, 10:53:37 AM »
Vlad,

The abandonment of my critical faculties.
Yours are pretty poor I grant you but maybe an overhaul rather than scrappage?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64323
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #334 on: February 18, 2021, 11:24:54 AM »
The irony being that your example is a case of special pleading for the existence of God since you simultaneously believe that no matter the outcome of the debris, you attribute it to God.
Nice to see you posting.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #335 on: February 18, 2021, 12:42:00 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Yours are pretty poor I grant you but maybe an overhaul rather than scrappage?

I'll add "irony" to the list of concepts you don't understand. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #336 on: February 18, 2021, 04:58:16 PM »
This is all very well but doesn’t really answer the question of what it would take for you to believe in God.

For me personally, I've answered that before: I can't imagine what it would take for me to accept such a notion, it seems incomprehensible to me. Given just how unimaginably vast and old our universe is, and our complete inability to determine if it's unique or just one amongst who know how many others, the idea of taking a single exceptional event and attempting to justify a complete reworking of our understanding of how reality probably works doesn't wash for me.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #337 on: February 18, 2021, 05:40:03 PM »
the idea of taking a single exceptional event and attempting to justify a complete reworking of our understanding of how reality probably works doesn't wash for me.
I cannot see how the inclusion of an uncreated creator or a necessary being would require a ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works'' by which I take it you mean science. More ''science vs religion'' crap IMHO.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #338 on: February 18, 2021, 07:30:05 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I cannot see how the inclusion of an uncreated creator or a necessary being would require a ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works'' by which I take it you mean science. More ''science vs religion'' crap IMHO.

Of course you can – “an uncreated creator or a necessary being would require a ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works” because it contradicts or fails to align everything we know so far about reality. It’s just woo. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #339 on: February 19, 2021, 01:16:04 AM »
Vlad,

Of course you can – “an uncreated creator or a necessary being would require a ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works” because it contradicts or fails to align everything we know so far about reality. It’s just woo.
Still more from the new atheist through.
Dawkins stated the universe was just as we would expect from a godless universe and failed to justify that assertion just like you. He certainly failed to convince de grasse Tyson and Bostrom and Greene. All simulated universe men.


Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #340 on: February 19, 2021, 09:01:43 AM »
I cannot see how the inclusion of an uncreated creator or a necessary being would require a ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works'' by which I take it you mean science. More ''science vs religion'' crap IMHO.

Our understanding of how reality works rests upon the concept of cause and effect - to suggest that there is an uncaused effect requires that to be reassessed.  It's not 'science vs religion crap', but it is 'methodological naturalism' vs 'magic/woo'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #341 on: February 19, 2021, 12:37:45 PM »
Vlad,

First, your latest effort has no relationship at all to the post you were trying to reply to. I explained to you why a “uncreated creator” would require ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works”. Rather than respond to that, you’ve employed one of your standard evasions of shooting sideways into something else. For what it’s worth nonetheless…

Quote
Still more from the new atheist through.

What are you even trying to say here?

Quote
Dawkins…

Richard Dawkins has nothing to do with the conversation about the SU conjecture you’ve just run away from.

Quote
… stated the universe was just as we would expect from a godless universe and failed to justify that assertion just like you.

Of course it does, just a you’d expect it to look if there were no unicorns on Betelgeuse. You never have grasped the burden of proof have you, even though it’s been explained to you many times. 

Quote
He certainly failed to convince de grasse Tyson and Bostrom and Greene. All simulated universe men.

So far as I know Dawkins hasn’t given much attention to the SU conjecture, and certainly not in a way that attempts to rebut the “simulated universe men” (none of whom by the way think it would be a rationale for your “god” even if the conjecture turned out to be correct - they speculate about a possible simulator, but the "uncaused" bit is an invention all of your own). 

Apart from all that though…
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #342 on: February 19, 2021, 12:48:56 PM »
Our understanding of how reality works rests upon the concept of cause and effect - to suggest that there is an uncaused effect requires that to be reassessed.  It's not 'science vs religion crap', but it is 'methodological naturalism' vs 'magic/woo'.

O.
You are confusing scientific understanding with the understanding of reality. In other words methodological materialism with a definition of reality based firmly in philosophical naturalism.

Nowhere is there a claim of an uncaused effect. That is clearly absurd since you cannot have an effect without a cause. What is proposed is an uncaused cause which it would be absurd to call an effect.

An uncaused thing on which all is dependent is unavoidable whether it be eternal stuff which is ever changing or an eternal God at the bottom of everything.

So several errors and at least one straw man invention I.e. uncaused effect before a gratuitously and unwarranted dismissive finale calling out supposed woo.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #343 on: February 19, 2021, 12:57:08 PM »
Vlad,

First, your latest effort has no relationship at all to the post you were trying to reply to. I explained to you why a “uncreated creator” would require ''complete reworking of our understanding of how reality works”. Rather than respond to that, you’ve employed one of your standard evasions of shooting sideways into something else. For what it’s worth nonetheless…

What are you even trying to say here?

Richard Dawkins has nothing to do with the conversation about the SU conjecture you’ve just run away from.

Of course it does, just a you’d expect it to look if there were no unicorns on Betelgeuse. You never have grasped the burden of proof have you, even though it’s been explained to you many times. 

So far as I know Dawkins hasn’t given much attention to the SU conjecture, and certainly not in a way that attempts to rebut the “simulated universe men” (none of whom by the way think it would be a rationale for your “god” even if the conjecture turned out to be correct - they speculate about a possible simulator, but the "uncaused" bit is an invention all of your own). 

Apart from all that though…
I believe Greene and Dawkins discussed this on a video available on you tube.

Why should the scientific journalist and ethnologist Dawkins opinion or lack thereof be taken more
Seriously than that of Bostrom, Greene and Degrasse Tyson.

Whether the above scientists consider the nature of the creator to be The uncaused cause or a bored teenager from an advanced civilisation is neither here nor there on the issue of maker as Jeremy P has pointed out. You are merely conflating the questions of maker and what it is like.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #344 on: February 19, 2021, 01:05:22 PM »
You are confusing scientific understanding with the understanding of reality. In other words methodological materialism with a definition of reality based firmly in philosophical naturalism.

No, I'm not - I'm accepting that our most reliable understanding of reality, currently and possibly potentially, is through the scientific method.

Quote
Nowhere is there a claim of an uncaused effect.

“....uncreated creator....” would seem to undermine that claim.

Quote
That is clearly absurd since you cannot have an effect without a cause.

That's what I thought, but then someone went and suggested gods.

Quote
What is proposed is an uncaused cause which it would be absurd to call an effect.

Ah, a rare sighting of the 'special pleading' in the wild... it's so nice to see a classic.

Quote
An uncaused thing on which all is dependent is unavoidable whether it be eternal stuff which is ever changing or an eternal God at the bottom of everything.

We've had this discussion before, and you know that I don't accept that claim, either.

Quote
So several errors and at least one straw man invention I.e. uncaused effect before a gratuitously and unwarranted dismissive finale calling out supposed woo.

Uh... no errors, no straw men... and entirely justified description of woo.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #345 on: February 19, 2021, 01:15:30 PM »
No, I'm not - I'm accepting that our most reliable understanding of reality, currently and possibly potentially, is through the scientific method.

“....uncreated creator....” would seem to undermine that claim.

That's what I thought, but then someone went and suggested gods.

Ah, a rare sighting of the 'special pleading' in the wild... it's so nice to see a classic.

We've had this discussion before, and you know that I don't accept that claim, either.

Uh... no errors, no straw men... and entirely justified description of woo.

O.
2 Points. Your straw man invention of the term uncaused effect.
The use of the word effect immediately begs the question of wha the cause is. Not so with the term cause.

When you say you disagreed with the idea of something on which all depended, please remind me of your alternative and the argument you used to say that the alternative wasNOT something on which all depended, thank you.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #346 on: February 19, 2021, 02:12:12 PM »
2 Points. Your straw man invention of the term uncaused effect.

You cited an 'uncreated creator'; that IS an uncaused effect, even if you don't happen to like that description.

Quote
The use of the word effect immediately begs the question of wha the cause is. Not so with the term cause.

And your use of the word 'creator' immediately begs questions, it turns out that language is limited - would you prefer 'spontaneous phenomenon', because however you colour it it's the same thing.

Quote
When you say you disagreed with the idea of something on which all depended, please remind me of your alternative and the argument you used to say that the alternative was NOT something on which all depended, thank you.

I don't need to provide an alternative, I just need to point out that you've failed to make your case.  You keep making this burden of proof error...  As it is, I've not said that there isn't a fundamental level to reality, I've just questioned the implications of using the term 'being'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #347 on: February 19, 2021, 02:25:02 PM »
You cited an 'uncreated creator'; that IS an uncaused effect, even if you don't happen to like that description.
Quote
Wrong, the term effect cannot exist conceptually without the term cause. That all causes need an effect is a statement of philosophical naturalism. And that’s different I’m afraid.



Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #348 on: February 19, 2021, 02:27:37 PM »
Wrong, the term effect cannot exist conceptually without the term cause. That all causes need an effect is a statement of philosophical naturalism. And that’s different I’m afraid.

But your justification for claiming that this isn't an effect is that you don't want it to have a cause, you want it to be the 'uncreated creator'; you can't justify your claim with your claim, or you simply have a circular argument.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Evidence of God
« Reply #349 on: February 19, 2021, 02:35:35 PM »
But your justification for claiming that this isn't an effect is that you don't want it to have a cause, you want it to be the 'uncreated creator'; you can't justify your claim with your claim, or you simply have a circular argument.

O.
No the word effect unavoidably involves cause. It is totally implicit in the concept of effect.
Not so with the concept of cause. And that is so whether one likes it or not.

One has to believe that all causes are also effects. All effects are the result of causes.

You keep dodging this.