NDE

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here are two articles about NDE's  that are interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6170063/


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The combination of the preceding nine lines of evidence converges on the conclusion that near-death experiences are medically inexplicable. Any one or several of the nine lines of evidence would likely be reasonably convincing to many, but the combination of all of the presented nine lines of evidence provides powerful evidence that NDEs are, in a word, real.

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Cheers.

Sriram

[Sebastian Toe]

Hi everyone,

Here are two articles about NDE's  that are interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6170063/


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The combination of the preceding nine lines of evidence converges on the conclusion that near-death experiences are medically inexplicable.

There's always a counter view!
Interesting.....

https://tinyurl.com/CanBeExplainedNDE

"Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations"

[Enki]

And another, by Dr Susan Blackmore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM1IEobgw0Y

Nobody, to my knowledge, has disagreed with the idea that NDEs are real, certainly not me. The problem is, of course, how to explain them.

[SusanDoris]

There has always been a scientific explanation for NDEs even though people did not know what it was. Such an explanation will always need updating as new information is discovered, but the main point is that the person did not completely die so it has never been an after-death experience however many millions believe it to be true!

[ekim]

The discussions seem to be more about the experiences rather than the observing experiencer.  We all have memories most of which are probably false.  It is possible that NDE's are just the resurrection of such memories.  We have all had NLE's , near life experiences in the womb but there doesn't seem to be any discussions about this.  Is it because there is no memory, perhaps.  Perhaps the experiencer has to evolve as such throughout a lifetime of experiences and memories.  Whether the subject experiencer can be sustained after death of the body and its memories remains to be seen.  It could be that 'spiritual' practices are attempts to facilitate this.

[SusanDoris]

Whether the subject experiencer can be sustained after death of the body and its memories remains to be seen.  It could be that 'spiritual' practices are attempts to facilitate this.

How do you tell the difference between what you call 'spiritual practices' and any other thought practices?

[ekim]

How do you tell the difference between what you call 'spiritual practices' and any other thought practices?

You will need to accept that this is just my take on the subject, others are available.  I also distinguish 'spiritual' from 'religious'.  Religions to me are the variety of beliefs,  doctrines and thought practices which have grown over time, often to support a predominant power structure.

My view is that there is one basic 'spiritual' practice which is meditation, but this practice can take many forms.  They are mostly designed to promote inner stillness rather than inner agitation associated with thoughts and emotions.  By inner stillness, I don't mean inner deadness or dreamless sleep.  There are a variety of words associated with this 'inner state' like bliss, ananda, paradise, heaven, love, life, union, all of which arise in consciousness.   

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

The fact is that people who have had the NDE know it to be an after-death and after-life experience. Most other people in the world believe it to be so too.

Only the scientific community have been looking for convoluted ways of explaining NDE's  through physical reactions in the brain.

Now however it appears that many doctors and researchers also accept that NDE's cannot be explained through mere brain related reactions. 

That is a positive sign IMO.

Cheers.

Sriram

[ekim]

It is very difficult to provide evidence of inner experiences including that which is associated with imagery that appears consciously when the body is in a near death like state.  There is also the problem of memory when coming out of that state and whether it is accurate in detail or semi fictional.  This is also the interpretation of the experience. e.g.is it anymore significant than a vivid dream or nightmare.  Perhaps it is better to think in terms of consciousness, sub consciousness and unconsciousness rather than life and death.

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

The fact is that people who have had the NDE know it to be an after-death and after-life experience.

How? The fact that you can ask them about it means that they did not die, so how would they know what an after death experience is?

[ippy]

John Cleese did something about NDEs on YouTube it could be taken with a pinch of salt if you like but it's certainly entertaining/interesting and worth a look.

[Sriram]

How? The fact that you can ask them about it means that they did not die, so how would they know what an after death experience is?

We will only go around in circles with this line of argument.

You cannot argue beginning with the assumption that death has to be final and no one can ever come back from the dead.......and then conclude that death is final and no one can ever come back from the dead!   

NDE's are evidence that, at least in some cases, people can come back from the dead. The NDE's are the evidence that death is not final in all cases. Clinical evidence and the opinion of doctors also corroborate this fact.

Science has to take this matter seriously and change its stand about death, as many researchers are advocating....instead of holding on to its traditional stand and try to circumvent the evidence.

[jeremyp]

We will only go around in circles with this line of argument.

It's a fairly straight forward question. Why don't you just admit you can't answer it?

You cannot argue beginning with the assumption that death has to be final

The question does not assume that death has to be final.

and no one can ever come back from the dead.......and then conclude that death is final and no one can ever come back from the dead! 

Who has ever come back from the dead and how do you know they were dead?   

NDE's are evidence that, at least in some cases, people can come back from the dead.

This is circular reasoning. Even the name: "near death experience" denies the idea that the people were ever actually dead.

[ippy]

I believe brains starved of oxygen are inclined to hallucinate, surely the cause of NDEs are more likely to be caused by something more like this than anything otherworldly.

By the way good to see you're back Sriram and shouting it all out again.

Kind regards to you, ippy. 

I've had to up the ugly pills again. 

[Sriram]

It's a fairly straight forward question. Why don't you just admit you can't answer it?

The question does not assume that death has to be final.
Who has ever come back from the dead and how do you know they were dead?   
This is circular reasoning. Even the name: "near death experience" denies the idea that the people were ever actually dead.

Well....I am glad that at least some researchers and people of science are now thinking differently from you.  That is the silver lining. 

Cheers.

[Sriram]

I believe brains starved of oxygen are inclined to hallucinate, surely the cause of NDEs are more likely to be caused by something more like this than anything otherworldly.

By the way good to see you're back Sriram and shouting it all out again.

Kind regards to you, ippy. 

I've had to up the ugly pills again.

 

[jeremyp]

Well....I am glad that at least some researchers and people of science are now thinking differently from you.  That is the silver lining. 

Cheers.

Please answer my question. How do people know that a particular experience is similar to experiences after death if they haven't been dead before?

[Robbie]

'Near death' is not 'after death'.

I had one a few months ago and it was not unpleasant.

[Udayana]

Please answer my question. How do people know that a particular experience is similar to experiences after death if they haven't been dead before?

Obviously it can't be proved, but anyone having the experience can be convinced: for example they might suddenly recall (or imagine they remember) many previous lives and/or deaths.

It is based on what they feel, so seems more a question of interpretation rather than fact.

[Sriram]

Please answer my question. How do people know that a particular experience is similar to experiences after death if they haven't been dead before?

Please read the first link I have given in the OP.  Nothing more I can say.

Just because someone has called it 'Near' death experience does not mean that that word would itself define and limit the phenomenon. Researchers like Dr.Sam Parnia have confirmed that these are 'after-death' experiences.

[SusanDoris]

Please read the first link I have given in the OP.  Nothing more I can say.

Just because someone has called it 'Near' death experience does not mean that that word would itself define and limit the phenomenon. Researchers like Dr.Sam Parnia have confirmed that these are 'after-death' experiences.

Wriggle, evasion, wriggle, evasion etc

[Nearly Sane]

Wriggle, evasion, wriggle, evasion etc

It isn't really wriggling. The problem in discussions on this is that it we define death as a state that is irreversible then we declare these experiences as having to happen before death. If, however, death is defined as a state with certain physical conditions e.g. Lack of observable brain activity for x period of time then in theory an after 'death' experience might be possible. Unless the discussion is based on an agreed definition, it is simply people talking past each other.

It is worth noting though that even if we take the second definition, it isn't clear how we can tell when exactly the experiences occur.

[Gordon]

Hi everyone,

Here are two articles about NDE's  that are interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6170063/

[/quote,]

The only interesting aspect of these two articles is that they got published at all, and I do wonder about the editorial standards of this journal: the first is a definitional and methodological mess and the second starts with a dash of confirmation bias and descends into woo.

These articles are only 'science' if the term is prefixed with 'pseudo'.

[Gordon]

Hi everyone,

Here are two articles about NDE's  that are interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6170063/

The only interesting aspect of these two articles is that they got published at all, and I do wonder about the editorial standards of this journal: the first is a definitional and methodological mess and the second starts with a dash of confirmation bias and descends into woo.

These articles are only 'science' if the term is prefixed with 'pseudo'.

[SusanDoris]

It isn't really wriggling. The problem in discussions on this is that it we define death as a state that is irreversible then we declare these experiences as having to happen before death. If, however, death is defined as a state with certain physical conditions e.g. Lack of observable brain activity for x period of time then in theory an after 'death' experience might be possible. Unless the discussion is based on an agreed definition, it is simply people talking past each other.

It is worth noting though that even if we take the second definition, it isn't clear how we can tell when exactly the experiences occur.

Agreed, of course, but I think in the end it boils down to wishful thinking on the part of those who just cannot accept that the actual, final death is just that - actual and final.

I always think that Michael Rosen expressed it all best in the essay he wrote to help himself come to terms with the death of his son from meningitis.