NDE

[jeremyp]

It is not just about incredulity or pseudoscience or 'woo' as you call it. It is simply about knowing that there is a difference between a live brain (and body) and a dead one. 

This computer on which I'm typing is a wonderful tool to communicate with the world and do many other tasks. Yet when I switch it off, it's just an inert lump of metal and plastic. It's all physics and electrons specifically. There's no magic computer-soul that departs when I remove the power.

Why does a human brain have to be different?

Life cannot be just a random process. It has to be induced externally into the body....like electricity.

I don't know anybody who claims life is random. It certainly does require an energy source, which is why it goes away if you stop eating and/or breathing for too long.

Finding out what it is requires incredulity and doubt. If we are cocksure about something to the exclusion of all other possibilities....it is dysfunctional and prevents progress.

There's nobody on this board more cocksure about what life is to the exclusion of all possibilities than you.

[Sriram]

This computer on which I'm typing is a wonderful tool to communicate with the world and do many other tasks. Yet when I switch it off, it's just an inert lump of metal and plastic. It's all physics and electrons specifically. There's no magic computer-soul that departs when I remove the power.

Why does a human brain have to be different?

YOU depart when you switch off the computer. You are the soul or Self of the computer because of whom it exists.

[Sriram]

Sriram,

To take the last two sentences of Post 70:

Incredulity(the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something), by itself, doesn't get you very far at all. You simply shut off certain possibilities by being incredulous. Doubt, however, can be a very positive state if it allows you to consider different approaches and evaluate them according to evidence.

Completely agreed. Why is it, then, that in Post 67  you illustrate  your incredulity in the first sentence and a cocksure approach in your last sentence. Surely it isn't a case of one rule for Sriram, and another rule for everyone else, is it?

Incidentally here are two pieces of very recent research which might shed some light on NDEs.

This one compares anecdotal experiences of NDE recollections with those from people who have taken certain drugs, especially ketamine and compares them linguistically.
Certain similarities were found. Interesting, but obviously not conclusive as the article makes clear.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-clues-found-in-understanding-near-death-experiences/

The second one is a study which suggests that one in 10 people experience NDEs, and that NDEs are as common amongst those who were not in imminent danger of death as those that were.

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-06/sh-oi1062519.php

Just thought I would throw these in, in the interests of a balanced approach.

It is possible that even people who are not dying can have OBE's and such experiences. After all, the soul only occupies the body. It can leave the body anytime temporarily for whatever reason....   In fact, this only establishes that the Self is independent of the body.....and it is not the brain coming up with some sort of a  imagery during death....due to certain chemicals....or whatever...

[torridon]

It is possible that even people who are not dying can have OBE's and such experiences. After all, the soul only occupies the body. It can leave the body anytime temporarily for whatever reason....   In fact, this only establishes that the Self is independent of the body.....and it is not the brain coming up with some sort of a  imagery during death....due to certain chemicals....or whatever...

I had an OBE once, about three or four years back.  Although I had a peculiar sensation of floating out of my body at the time, I don't see any problems in hindsight with the mundane explanation that it was a temporary aberration in the normal functioning of interoception and/or proprioception, some sort of body mapping abnormality.  It is quite easy to induce altered states of consciousness, just a couple of pints of good strong beer does the trick usually.

[Gordon]

It is possible that even people who are not dying can have OBE's and such experiences. After all, the soul only occupies the body. It can leave the body anytime temporarily for whatever reason....   In fact, this only establishes that the Self is independent of the body.....and it is not the brain coming up with some sort of a  imagery during death....due to certain chemicals....or whatever...

Evidence for 'souls' and 'Self independent of the body' is what exactly?

[Sriram]

Evidence for 'souls' and 'Self independent of the body' is what exactly?

Only if and when we understand the possibilities, study the phenomenon and look for evidence will we find it. Gravitational waves did not show themselves to us. It took decades of effort to detect them....

[Sriram]

I had an OBE once, about three or four years back.  Although I had a peculiar sensation of floating out of my body at the time, I don't see any problems in hindsight with the mundane explanation that it was a temporary aberration in the normal functioning of interoception and/or proprioception, some sort of body mapping abnormality.  It is quite easy to induce altered states of consciousness, just a couple of pints of good strong beer does the trick usually.

Having OBE's could be quite normal and natural. Not necessarily only at the point of death. Sometimes the soul or Self could suddenly get shocked out of the body for some reason.  Anyone can have an OBE.

Attempting to explain it only as a brain related phenomenon is quite a cop out actually...

[torridon]

Having OBE's could be quite normal and natural. Not necessarily only at the point of death. Sometimes the soul or Self could suddenly get shocked out of the body for some reason.  Anyone can have an OBE.

Attempting to explain it only as a brain related phenomenon is quite a cop out actually...

Not a cop out, it is merely being true to principles of evidence based reasoning. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence, to paraphrase Carl Sagan.

[Gordon]

Only if and when we understand the possibilities, study the phenomenon and look for evidence will we find it. Gravitational waves did not show themselves to us. It took decades of effort to detect them....

That is a spurious comparison though: gravitational waves were predicted, notably by Einstein, and involved a description of their cause sufficient to design a method to detect them - in this case when the technology was capable of being built.

As regards both 'souls' or ideas of 'self independent of the body' there is no comparable theory that predicts the cause of these so as to develop a method to detect them - as things stand they are no more that notions grounded in traditional beliefs and religious superstitions.

[Sriram]

Not a cop out, it is merely being true to principles of evidence based reasoning. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence, to paraphrase Carl Sagan.

And evidence needs lots of sincere efforts to find. We didn't find out that the sun is a huge ball of burning hydrogen just by looking at it. It took centuries of effort and study....and lot of 'out of the box' thinking.  'Old school' thinking is not enough. 

[Sriram]

That is a spurious comparison though: gravitational waves were predicted, notably by Einstein, and involved a description of their cause sufficient to design a method to detect them - in this case when the technology was capable of being built.

As regards both 'souls' or ideas of 'self independent of the body' there is no comparable theory that predicts the cause of these so as to develop a method to detect them - as things stand they are no more that notions grounded in traditional beliefs and religious superstitions.

No...they are not just traditional beliefs. Atheists like to dismiss them that way.

The idea of souls has evidence in the form of NDE's and OBE's. That is what we have been talking about....!   

You people keep clutching at straws to rubbish such matters when in fact they need to be taken seriously.... as many scientists seem to be doing in recent years. That is good news.     

[Gordon]

No...they are not just traditional beliefs.

I suspect that is all they are.

Atheists like to dismiss them that way.

Because, in the absence of any credible evidence, they are easily dismissed.

The idea of souls has evidence in the form of NDE's and OBE's. That is what we have been talking about....!   

You people keep clutching at straws to rubbish such matters when in fact they need to be taken seriously.... as many scientists seem to be doing in recent years. That is good news.

Yet we don't see 'serious' science, so I think you are over-egging the pudding there, but we do get wishful thinking, pseudoscience and woo - plus avoidance that NDE's are most likely a biological process. As far as I can see OBE claims are nothing but groundless woo.

[torridon]

And evidence needs lots of sincere efforts to find. We didn't find out that the sun is a huge ball of burning hydrogen just by looking at it. It took centuries of effort and study....and lot of 'out of the box' thinking.  'Old school' thinking is not enough.

That's why we do science, and by such means we have come a log way in understanding the nature of life, and that journey has has taken us further and further away from naive ancient notions.  The real 'old school thinking' is that which persists in religious circles, despite modernity. it is going to take more than a tiny handful of fringe researchers investigating curious mental phenomena to reverse the unstoppable juggernaut of life sciences.

[Sriram]

NDE's and OBE's are not religious beliefs......

[SusanDoris]

NDE's and OBE's are not religious beliefs......

Funny then, isn't it, how those with religious beliefs aare the ones who are far more likely to put forward that NDEs and OBEs are provable, but totally fail to provide any objective evidence of it, or the names of the 'many scientists' who apparently are researching them!

[torridon]

NDE's and OBE's are not religious beliefs......

They are connected though.  Many religions feature mind/body dualism and that is what is implied in any literal interpretation of these phenomena.

[Sriram]

They are connected though.  Many religions feature mind/body dualism and that is what is implied in any literal interpretation of these phenomena.

No. NDE's and OBE's are independent of religious beliefs and even atheists and scientists, doctors.....even you... have these experiences. They are secular and are in most cases very similar. 

It is the attempt to dub them as religious and to explain them away as brain related that is the issue. 

The article that I linked earlier in post 60 is good. Pl read it.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00209/full

[Enki]

Only if and when we understand the possibilities, study the phenomenon and look for evidence will we find it. Gravitational waves did not show themselves to us. It took decades of effort to detect them....

So?  It took decades to realise that luminiferous ether, an invisible substance with mysterious properties, which was believed to serve as the medium for the propagation of light,  didn't actually exist.

[Enki]

Having OBE's could be quite normal and natural. Not necessarily only at the point of death. Sometimes the soul or Self could suddenly get shocked out of the body for some reason.  Anyone can have an OBE.

Attempting to explain it only as a brain related phenomenon is quite a cop out actually...

Or, alternatively, it could be how the brain works in/react to certain situations.
 Attempting to explain it only as a non brain related phenomenon is quite a cop out actually.

[Enki]

And evidence needs lots of sincere efforts to find. We didn't find out that the sun is a huge ball of burning hydrogen just by looking at it. It took centuries of effort and study....and lot of 'out of the box' thinking.  'Old school' thinking is not enough.

Indeed, it needs observation, hypothesis, experimentation and prediction, in fact the whole scientific method. 'Old school' thinking about the soul is nowhere near enough.

[Enki]

No...they are not just traditional beliefs. Atheists like to dismiss them that way.

The idea of souls has evidence in the form of NDE's and OBE's. That is what we have been talking about....!   

You people keep clutching at straws to rubbish such matters when in fact they need to be taken seriously.... as many scientists seem to be doing in recent years. That is good news.   

Yes, ideas of the soul are based upon traditional beliefs, which are often linked to various religions and schools of philosophy.

Anecdotal accounts of NDEs and OBEs are not serious scientific evidence at all, and that's all you've got so far.

You keep clutching at straws to rubbish scientific explanations when in fact they should be taken seriously.... as many scientists seem to be doing over many years.

[Enki]

No. NDE's and OBE's are independent of religious beliefs and even atheists and scientists, doctors.....even you... have these experiences. They are secular and are in most cases very similar. 

It is the attempt to dub them as religious and to explain them away as brain related that is the issue. 

The article that I linked earlier in post 60 is good. Pl read it.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00209/full

Of course many people have such experiences, but it's often the religious and the 'spiritual' who latch on to them, often to fortify their dualist beliefs.

Here is an excellent book. You can read the introduction to it here:

https://www.salon.com/2015/01/25/you_dont_have_a_soul_the_real_science_that_debunks_superstitious_charlatans/


The book is entitled 'The Soul Fallacy' by Julien Musolino.

[ippy]

I had an OBE once, about three or four years back.  Although I had a peculiar sensation of floating out of my body at the time, I don't see any problems in hindsight with the mundane explanation that it was a temporary aberration in the normal functioning of interoception and/or proprioception, some sort of body mapping abnormality.  It is quite easy to induce altered states of consciousness, just a couple of pints of good strong beer does the trick usually.

I get that when I see Woolwich Wanderers going up above Spurs in the Premiership tables.
,

[ippy]

No. NDE's and OBE's are independent of religious beliefs and even atheists and scientists, doctors.....even you... have these experiences. They are secular and are in most cases very similar. 

It is the attempt to dub them as religious and to explain them away as brain related that is the issue. 

The article that I linked earlier in post 60 is good. Pl read it.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00209/full

Superstitious religious superstition religion?

What's the difference, come to think of it can you explain the difference, I very much doubt it Sriram.

Regards Sriram, ippy.