Author Topic: Existence  (Read 3426 times)

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Existence
« on: October 09, 2020, 02:49:54 PM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a very interesting video about existence.  Infinite Regress is also addressed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2DyvF03isM

Cheers.

Sriram

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Existence
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 04:16:11 PM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a very interesting video about existence.  Infinite Regress is also addressed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2DyvF03isM

Cheers.

Sriram
Apart from the fact that I don't watch videos, just a small hint or idea of what might be in it just possibly might attract comments ...
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32506
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Existence
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 06:04:20 PM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a very interesting video about existence.  Infinite Regress is also addressed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2DyvF03isM

Cheers.

Sriram
I’m definitely in favour of existence, especially in relation to me.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 07:49:39 PM »
I’m definitely in favour of existence, especially in relation to me.
Though if you didn't who would care?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2020, 05:41:16 AM »
Apart from the fact that I don't watch videos, just a small hint or idea of what might be in it just possibly might attract comments ...


You only need to listen. There isn't much to see visually in any case.

Its an interesting video/audio and brings out many views of scientists and philosophers on the nature of existence and the new ways of looking at it. 



« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:48:23 AM by Sriram »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2020, 06:18:53 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a very interesting video about existence.  Infinite Regress is also addressed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2DyvF03isM

Cheers.

Sriram
Doesn't start well in immediately using the 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' question. It's not clear that it's a meaningful question and the use of 'why" imports a purposiveness that immediately begs the question.

Also in these absolute terms, I have no idea what 'nothing' is. There's a lazy assumption that there being absolute nothing makes sense.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 06:36:48 AM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2020, 07:07:58 AM »
Doesn't start well in immediately using the 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' question. It's not clear that it's a meaningful question and the use of 'why" imports a purposiveness that immediately begs the question.

Also in these absolute terms, I have no idea what 'nothing' is. There's a lazy assumption that there being absolute nothing makes sense.


If 'nothing' doesn't make sense...'something' makes even less sense.  Problem is that we are trying to understand the world based on our limited human perspective. These are only perspectives and not Absolute knowledge  by any means...(like Plato's 'shadows in the cave').

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2020, 07:14:59 AM »

If 'nothing' doesn't make sense...'something' makes even less sense.  Problem is that we are trying to understand the world based on our limited human perspective. These are only perspectives and not Absolute knowledge  by any means...(like Plato's 'shadows in the cave').
There is no less sense than no sense. There is something. We are part of that. If nothing 'existed' then it would be something - which is where it makes no sense.

Your idea that there are only perspectives just ends up at the going nuclear option, see link below, that all ideas are equally valid At that point, you have degraded discussion to the extemt that you are saying it is pointless


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/kaboom-going-nuclear-in-argument

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2020, 07:32:06 AM »
There is no less sense than no sense. There is something. We are part of that. If nothing 'existed' then it would be something - which is where it makes no sense.

Your idea that there are only perspectives just ends up at the going nuclear option, see link below, that all ideas are equally valid At that point, you have degraded discussion to the extemt that you are saying it is pointless


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/kaboom-going-nuclear-in-argument


Well...maybe so. But then ...most of the science arguments about 'not reason to assume a why' or the many fallacies that you keep throwing at  people, are all...'going nuclear'.  Just arguments to end arguments.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2020, 07:36:09 AM »

Well...maybe so. But then ...most of the science arguments about 'not reason to assume a why' or the many fallacies that you keep throwing at  people, are all...'going nuclear'.  Just arguments to end arguments.
It is not a 'scientific' argument,  it's a logical and philosophical one. If you want to get rid of logic, then you  end up saying that everything you say is worthless


Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2020, 07:43:08 AM »
It is not a 'scientific' argument,  it's a logical and philosophical one. If you want to get rid of logic, then you  end up saying that everything you say is worthless


'Logic' is just what seems reasonable at one point of time with a certain knowledge base.  It need not be valid for all time. 

To think that the stars are lights in heaven would have been a perfectly logical idea to someone 1000 years ago. Today it is perfectly logical to think that they are huge balls of burning hydrogen. Some centuries ago, it would have been illogical to think of an electron as both a particle and a wave...or getting influenced by observation. But QM changed all that. 

Logic itself is not absolute.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2020, 07:46:52 AM »

'Logic' is just what seems reasonable at one point of time with a certain knowledge base.  It need not be valid for all time. 

To think that the stars are lights in heaven would have been a perfectly logical idea to someone 1000 years ago. Today it is perfectly logical to think that they are huge balls of burning hydrogen. Some centuries ago, it would have been illogical to think of an electron as both a particle and a wave...or getting influenced by observation. But QM changed all that. 

Logic itself is not absolute.
And again your post is just saying your post is worthless.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Existence
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2020, 07:47:02 AM »

If 'nothing' doesn't make sense...'something' makes even less sense.  Problem is that we are trying to understand the world based on our limited human perspective. These are only perspectives and not Absolute knowledge  by any means...(like Plato's 'shadows in the cave').

I think only a fool would conclude that their personal perspective on anything was, in isolation, of any great value if they also recognise that their own perspective can involve personal biases and the limits of their personal experiences and acquired knowledge: and if they don't recognise that these issues apply to them then their perspective is too constrained to be taken seriously for they might be wrong.

Anyone who recognises that 'human perspective' varies across humans, history, events, cultures etc and is affected by social change and responses to new knowledge would, I hope, also recognise that 'perspective' is a moveable feast that should always be treated with caution, especially so if their perspective includes the notion that there can ever be absolute knowledge of anything.     

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Existence
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2020, 07:50:16 AM »

Well...maybe so. But then ...most of the science arguments about 'not reason to assume a why' or the many fallacies that you keep throwing at  people, are all...'going nuclear'.  Just arguments to end arguments.

Citing a fallacy isn't itself an argument though: it is simply a case of pointing out that what is being presented as an argument contains reasoning and/or logical errors and, as such, is a failed argument.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2020, 08:02:07 AM »
And again your post is just saying your post is worthless.

No...I said that something cannot come from nothing, as in the video. You questioned that.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2020, 08:08:22 AM »
No...I said that something cannot come from nothing, as in the video. You questioned that.
You are entirely missing the issue - and misrepresenting the discussion.  I have been talking about the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' and pointing out what the issues with that are. In your replies you have used the nuclear option of saying it is all just perceptions which then means you are stating that your posts are worthless as you have no basis to have an argument.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 08:12:48 AM »
You are entirely missing the issue - and misrepresenting the discussion.  I have been talking about the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' and pointing out what the issues with that are. In your replies you have used the nuclear option of saying it is all just perceptions which then means you are stating that your posts are worthless as you have no basis to have an argument.


That is because we have no basis to argue either way. Reality can be bizarre.

These are philosophical issues in which perspective is important. Neither of us can prove it one way or the other. Logic doesn't work in matters in which we have no knowledge.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 08:16:40 AM »

That is because we have no basis to argue either way. Reality can be bizarre.

These are philosophical issues in which perspective is important. Neither of us can prove it one way or the other. Logic doesn't work in matters in which we have no knowledge.
Logic is not based on knowledge, knowledge is based on logic. That you don't understand that leads you to make the empty posts you have been posting here.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 08:22:50 AM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2020, 08:36:31 AM »
Logic is not based on knowledge, knowledge is based on logic. That you don't understand that leads you to make the empty posts you have been posting here.


Ok...ok. Lets leave it at that.....

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64343
Re: Existence
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2020, 08:43:43 AM »

Ok...ok. Lets leave it at that.....
Why?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32506
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Existence
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2020, 09:14:02 AM »
Though if you didn't who would care?
I think there are a few people in the World who would be saddened by my failure to exist anymore.

Of course, if I never existed at all, they wouldn't care but then neither would I.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19472
Re: Existence
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2020, 04:47:17 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
That is because we have no basis to argue either way. Reality can be bizarre.

Yes we do have a basis to argue either way. It’s called logic. Without it argument isn’t possible – it’s all just assertion (which brings us back to the problem you give yourself with your various assertions of fact with no attendant means of investigation or verification). 

Quote
These are philosophical issues in which perspective is important. Neither of us can prove it one way or the other.

Only to a degree. Logic is the only means we know of to test arguments – if they’re logically sound they’re considered valid, and if they’re logically unsound they’re considered invalid. In many cases we can test this with practical examples to provide a corroborative feedback loop. 

Quote
Logic doesn't work in matters in which we have no knowledge.


Yes it does, at least in principle. If, say, a hitherto unknown object was discovered in space then we’d use methods of logic and the tools it’s given rise to try identify what it was. What else could we do?

There’s a basic issue here you don’t understand, namely that our concept of truth itself works perfectly well without necessarily mapping to an “out there” reality. When you referred to historic beliefs about stars being lanterns in the sky, if the people concerned had developed logic only to the extent that that made sense then that was their truth. That we now have logic and tools that show them to be wrong does not though mean that, one day, future people might not look at our explanations for stars and find them to be just as wrong.

Where you keep going wrong is to think that our inability to know when we have an absolute truth means that any truth claim is as valid as any other. That’s wrongheaded though – we distinguish logically cogent truths from just guessing and we use that process to determine demonstrably real from not demonstrably real without having to make any claims to absolutes. My logic-based belief that jumping out of a 10th storey window will not end well and yours that we’d just float to the ground are distinguishable as true/not true on the basis of their logic and illogic respectively. That’s not to say though that there isn’t a deeper truth at play – maybe a celestial omnipotent deity just fools us into the false experience of hitting the deck hard for example – but nonetheless we still have a perfectly satisfactory, functional, workaday means of allocating true/not true values to our ideas.   

Your problem about your beliefs about supposed "patterns" etc is that, so far at least, you have no logically valid mean to justify them.                     
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:39:42 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2020, 05:47:44 AM »


Clearly many of you have more 'God' sitting in your heads than I do.  I have not made any claims of a God as a celestial being (even though that is possible!).

Just watch the video in the OP. That is what I am talking about. 

About 'logic'.....I am only saying that there is nothing called a universal immutable logic that is valid for all time and all issues. Logic is just whatever seems reasonable given our level of knowledge, perception and beliefs at any given point of time.  Just as the idea of Consciousness being fundamental and the generator of the universe, seems illogical to you.....whereas it seems perfectly logical to me and many others. 

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Existence
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2020, 07:36:31 AM »

About 'logic'.....I am only saying that there is nothing called a universal immutable logic that is valid for all time and all issues. Logic is just whatever seems reasonable given our level of knowledge, perception and beliefs at any given point of time.  Just as the idea of Consciousness being fundamental and the generator of the universe, seems illogical to you.....whereas it seems perfectly logical to me and many others.

In what way is your " the idea of Consciousness being fundamental and the generator of the universe" a logical proposition?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Existence
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2020, 08:11:33 AM »
In what way is your " the idea of Consciousness being fundamental and the generator of the universe" a logical proposition?


In the same way that the universe arising out of nothing....or the emergence of complexity through random variations...appears logical to you.  It is a matter of perception.  Not something that can be explained.