Author Topic: The Meaning Of The Bible  (Read 32158 times)

Theoretical Skeptic

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The Meaning Of The Bible
« on: October 24, 2020, 02:03:27 PM »
The meaning of the Bible can be summed up briefly as the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. The first thing that was created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon. Then everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done.  When we would have accomplished this we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period, of creation continues to this day.  So the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured in able to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. Belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession.

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2020, 02:13:32 PM »
TS,

Thank you for explaining your take on what the Bible means. Just out of interest do you have any reason to think that any of that stuff actually happened too, or is it just the creation myth that happens to entertain you more than others do?   
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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2020, 02:17:56 PM »
Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

This god character is rather a bloodthirsty and vindictive, isn't it?
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Gordon

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2020, 02:31:59 PM »
All I see is a bunch of middle-eastern religious superstitions dating from antiquity, elements of the cultures of those times, a dash of travelogue here and there, various anecdotes of uncertain provenance, some poetry and some fantastical claims: given the risks of exaggeration, mistakes and lies I'd say that, with the possible exceptions of geographical information and some real historical characters and events, most of it is indistinguishable from fiction.

No doubt it is of cultural and historical interest, as is its role in political and social terms over the centuries since, but I'm constantly surprised that these days it is taken seriously at all.   
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 09:06:27 AM by Gordon »

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2020, 02:58:41 PM »
BHR,

I believe it did happen and it is happening. I've dedicated nearly 30 years to it's study, with the examination of the perspective of its critics as a priority and I've yet to see any reason to doubt it.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2020, 03:02:43 PM »
TS,

Quote
I believe it did happen and it is happening.

Seriously? Wow! Why though?

Quote
I've dedicated nearly 30 years to it's study, with the examination of the perspective of its critics as a priority and I've yet to see any reason to doubt it.

Um, how about because unqualified and fantastical assertions are non-investigable and unverifiable?   
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Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2020, 03:38:04 PM »
Seriously? Wow! Why though?

I've already stated. Why not?

Um, how about because unqualified and fantastical assertions are non-investigable and unverifiable?

The limitations of the non-investigable and unverifiable are not the fault of things outside of our scope. We don't understand much of anything, and that we do claim to understand is uncertain.

I think the atheists have an intellectual insecurity that creates an unrealistic need for concrete answers which baffles me since science is a method of investigation rather than a belief system.

Science has a nasty habit of laughing at the notion of flight until some bloke invents the airplane. At the behaviour of apes until a secretary goes out and lives among them. A nasty habit of jumping on the bandwagon and taking credit for stuff science had nothing to do with the creation of.

So, if you feel good about the ever changing dogma of science as some intellectual crutch which limits itself into a stagnant pool, by all means, have at it; but don't feel so smug and self-righteous in criticizing that which you don't understand.

If science can't test the supernatural then no one can make any real scientific claims negating the supernatural and keep in mind, at one time giant squid and whales were supernatural. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2020, 04:00:10 PM »
TS,

Quote
I've already stated. Why not?

Because there’s no way to investigate or verify your claims. That’s why not.

In Hindu mythology the world rests on the backs of four elephants who stand on the shell of a turtle. That’s no more fantastical than your speculations about angels and the like. You should therefore believe the Hindu myth too. After all, why not?
 
Quote
The limitations of the non-investigable and unverifiable are not the fault of things outside of our scope. We don't understand much of anything, and that we do claim to understand is uncertain.

But absent any method at investigate such claims, how do you know these “things” to exit at all?

Quote
I think the atheists have an intellectual insecurity that creates an unrealistic need for concrete answers which baffles me since science is a method of investigation rather than a belief system.

Ad hominem – yet another fallacy. “Atheists” don’t have a need for “concrete answers” at all. Rather they/we simply ask for reasons to justify beliefs that aren’t wrong. So far, you haven’t been able to suggest any.     

Quote
Science has a nasty habit of laughing at the notion of flight until some bloke invents the airplane.

“Science” is incapable of laughing at anything, and it was because of science that human flight became possible.

Quote
At the behaviour of apes until a secretary goes out and lives among them. A nasty habit of jumping on the bandwagon and taking credit for stuff science had nothing to do with the creation of.

What are you even trying to say here?

Quote
So, if you feel good about the ever changing dogma of science as some intellectual crutch which limits itself into a stagnant pool, by all means, have at it; but don't feel so smug and self-righteous in criticizing that which you don't understand.

Oh dear. All that’s happening is that you’re being asked to provide arguments to justify your beliefs. So far at least, all you have is assertions – and fantastical ones at that.

Quote
If science can't test the supernatural…

It’s claims about “the supernatural”. You can’t just assert the supernatural into existence - that’s called reification (another fallacy). Your problem isn’t that science can’t investigate and verify claims of the supernatural, it’s that nothing else can either. Absent a method of any kind, “the supernatural” is just white noise.   

Quote
…then no one can make any real scientific claims negating the supernatural…

Science doesn’t claim to negate claims of the supernatural – it’s indifferent to them because its methods and tools have no way to engage with these claims. The problem though is that nor can anything else.

Quote
…and keep in mind, at one time giant squid and whales were supernatural.

No they weren’t.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 10:45:40 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2020, 04:39:55 PM »
I believe it did happen and it is happening. I've dedicated nearly 30 years to it's study, with the examination of the perspective of its critics as a priority and I've yet to see any reason to doubt it.

I've already stated. Why not?

You seem to have got the burden of proof completely arse about face. What reason do you have to take any of it seriously in the first place?
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SteveH

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2020, 05:40:53 PM »
I assume from that that you're a JW.
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Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2020, 05:47:02 PM »
I assume from that that you're a JW.

I am not. I wouldn't ever be a part of any organised religion.
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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2020, 05:48:44 PM »
You seem to have got the burden of proof completely arse about face. What reason do you have to take any of it seriously in the first place?

There is no burden of proof in faith. I have lots of reasons to take it seriously. When you read my posts you begin to see what they are. I've never been presented with any reason not to, that's for sure.
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SusanDoris

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2020, 06:12:24 PM »
BHR,

I believe it did happen and it is happening. I've dedicated nearly 30 years to it's study, with the examination of the perspective of its critics as a priority and I've yet to see any reason to doubt it.
The more |I have read your posts during these last few days, the more my amazement has grown at your credulity.
On another forum some years ago I started a topic, the title of which was 'What do theologians know, actually know, about God?'
It went on for many pages and tailed off without, of course, anyone producing one single piece of objective information about God. (And yes, this was the Abrahamic Christian God being referred to.)
I can safely say, you cannot produce one either.

By the way, I agree with above posts, by critical thinkers.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:24:09 PM by SusanDoris »
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Owlswing

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2020, 06:15:06 PM »

All I see is a bunch of middle-eastern religious superstitions dating from antiquity, elements of the cultures of those times, a dash of travelogue here and there, various anecdotes of uncertain provenance, some poetry and some fantastical claims: given the risks of exaggeration, mistakes and lies I'd say that, with the possible exceptions of geographical information and some real historical characters and events, most of it is indistinguishable from fiction.

No doubt it is of cultural and historical interest, as its role in political and social terms over the centuries since, but I'm constantly surprised that these days it is taken seriously at all.


A masterly summation.

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2020, 06:34:24 PM »
TS,

Quote
There is no burden of proof in faith.

Then there’s no reason to take its claims seriously. It also gives you the problem that any faith claim from any tradition is as (in)valid as any other.

Does that not trouble you at all?

Quote
I have lots of reasons to take it seriously.

Then why keep them a secret?

Quote
When you read my posts you begin to see what they are.

I can’t. So far, all I’ve seen is unqualified assertions and fallacious reasoning to justify them.   

Quote
I've never been presented with any reason not to, that's for sure.

Clearly not true. A pretty big reason is that you cannot (or will not) demonstrate a logically sound argument to justify your beliefs. 
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SteveH

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2020, 08:37:55 PM »
You say you're not a JW, and I don't doubt your word as far as membership of the organisation is concerned, but your OP is pure JWism, including the idea that Christ and Michael are the same, and referring to God as 'Jehovah'.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2020, 07:21:48 AM »
There is no burden of proof in faith.

That doesn't make sense. How can you decide what to have faith in, without a burden of proof? You'd have to take every single faith claim equally seriously.

I have lots of reasons to take it seriously.

Such as?

When you read my posts you begin to see what they are.

Haven't seen anything like that in them yet.

I've never been presented with any reason not to, that's for sure.

How about it's just an old myth with zero supporting evidence or reasoning? Not having some positive reason to take something seriously is quite enough reason to dismiss it, if you're being rational.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 08:05:02 AM by Never Talk to Strangers »
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SusanDoris

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2020, 08:16:33 AM »
Since TS has spent so many years studying the Bible and, it seems, giving it a status of almost infallibility,, it seems he is still trying to convince himself that his interpretation and understanding are right; although still unsuccessfully it would seem since, if he had in fact succeeded, he would be able to pass on this indisputable information to us. It saddens me to think of so many people spending so much time and energy on a never-ending trail trying to find an ever-elusive pot of gold.
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Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2020, 12:20:53 PM »
Since TS has spent so many years studying the Bible and, it seems, giving it a status of almost infallibility,, it seems he is still trying to convince himself that his interpretation and understanding are right; although still unsuccessfully it would seem since, if he had in fact succeeded, he would be able to pass on this indisputable information to us. It saddens me to think of so many people spending so much time and energy on a never-ending trail trying to find an ever-elusive pot of gold.

You atheists are all alike, really, aren't you. Always blowing your own horn just like you like it to be blown.

I try and convince myself that my interpretation and understanding is wrong, which is why I'm here on an atheist forum and have a response to an atheist website. You all on the other hand are here for . . . well, you get the picture.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2020, 01:50:05 PM »
TS,

Quote
You atheists are all alike, really, aren't you. Always blowing your own horn just like you like it to be blown.

I try and convince myself that my interpretation and understanding is wrong, which is why I'm here on an atheist forum and have a response to an atheist website. You all on the other hand are here for . . . well, you get the picture.

If you want to convince yourself that your interpretation and understanding is wrong all you have to do is to consider the absence of cogent reasoning to justify your beliefs. I suspect though that, having invested so heavily for so long in those beliefs, that’s the last thing you want to do.
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NicholasMarks

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2020, 01:56:13 PM »
Since TS has spent so many years studying the Bible and, it seems, giving it a status of almost infallibility,, it seems he is still trying to convince himself that his interpretation and understanding are right; although still unsuccessfully it would seem since, if he had in fact succeeded, he would be able to pass on this indisputable information to us. It saddens me to think of so many people spending so much time and energy on a never-ending trail trying to find an ever-elusive pot of gold.


Don't worry...it's all coming to an end. A new heavens and a new Earth will erupt out of the chaos that many here, seem to enjoy. People inspired by the Holy Bible are many...It's much harder to build than it is to destroy and the Dawkinists seem to enjoy destruction of the solid health pattern that the Holy Bible leads us towards. A natural disaster is looming and those following righteousness as Jesus alone taught is will be in with a shout because the science behind it all isn't conducive with failure.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2020, 02:19:45 PM »
Sparky,

Quote
Don't worry...it's all coming to an end. A new heavens and a new Earth will erupt out of the chaos that many here, seem to enjoy. People inspired by the Holy Bible are many...It's much harder to build than it is to destroy and the Dawkinists seem to enjoy destruction of the solid health pattern that the Holy Bible leads us towards. A natural disaster is looming and those following righteousness as Jesus alone taught is will be in with a shout because the science behind it all isn't conducive with failure.

Madder than a monkey on a tricycle. 
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ippy

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2020, 04:15:42 PM »
Since TS has spent so many years studying the Bible and, it seems, giving it a status of almost infallibility,, it seems he is still trying to convince himself that his interpretation and understanding are right; although still unsuccessfully it would seem since, if he had in fact succeeded, he would be able to pass on this indisputable information to us. It saddens me to think of so many people spending so much time and energy on a never-ending trail trying to find an ever-elusive pot of gold.

S D, I know I rattle on about world fame but perhaps that's exactly what T S is looking for.

I've no idea how to put a bet on in a betting shop but in T S's case it maybe it doesn't matter.

Regards Susan, ippy.

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 05:30:28 AM »
TS,

If you want to convince yourself that your interpretation and understanding is wrong all you have to do is to consider the absence of cogent reasoning to justify your beliefs. I suspect though that, having invested so heavily for so long in those beliefs, that’s the last thing you want to do.

If any of you can point out where, how and why my beliefs are wrong I strongly encourage you to do so, keeping in mind, however, that merely repeating that it is wrong, incoherent, blah, blah, blah isn't, by any means, in fact, coming close to concluding. You have to say where, how and or why they are wrong in a manner which transcends your own personal vacuous ideology.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 07:29:25 AM by Theoretical Skeptic »
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Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 05:34:32 AM »

Don't worry...it's all coming to an end. A new heavens and a new Earth will erupt out of the chaos that many here, seem to enjoy. People inspired by the Holy Bible are many...It's much harder to build than it is to destroy and the Dawkinists seem to enjoy destruction of the solid health pattern that the Holy Bible leads us towards. A natural disaster is looming and those following righteousness as Jesus alone taught is will be in with a shout because the science behind it all isn't conducive with failure.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The American atheist bullshit answer tends to be slightly less involved so this might take some getting used to.
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