Author Topic: The Meaning Of The Bible  (Read 34090 times)

NicholasMarks

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2020, 05:36:13 AM »
The meaning of the Bible can be summed up briefly as the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty. That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty.

God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. The first thing that was created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels. Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon. Then everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The angels existed for a very long time before man was created, and they had time to mature, like children, so that they knew what was good and bad from their creator. It is important that you understand that being created perfect is much like being born a baby. Parents see their newborn children as perfect, but think about it. They can't walk, talk, feed themselves, go to the bathroom properly - they are bald, toothless, chubby, defenseless little creatures. Perfect in the sense that they have great potential and innocence.

By the time man was created the angels had already reached their potential.

On the seventh day, when the creation was complete, God "rested." This doesn't mean that God was tired or that he stopped working, it means he set aside a period of time in which we were allowed to mature, as the angels had done.  When we would have accomplished this we could, as the Bible says, enter into God's day of rest. In other words, the seventh "day" or more accurately, period, of creation continues to this day.  So the knowledge of what is good and what is bad is the eventual possession of that maturity. The ability to decide for ourselves what was good and what was bad, predicated upon an acknowledgement of our own accord, of our creator, Jehovah's rightful sovereignty.

This is why, once Adam rejected that concept by deciding for himself what was good and bad before he had matured in able to best do that, Jehovah had to shorten his life from living forever to eventually dying. Because if he and his offspring, mankind, were allowed to live forever under those conditions, they would never reach that maturity and they would bring about an endless series of chaos and destruction.

So, in effect, Satan charged Jehovah with the crime of withholding some knowledge from mankind. He knew this wasn't true, but he wanted to try and seize control of the power that Jehovah's sovereignty represented even if it meant destroying all that it represented and everything else in the process. Even destroying himself. Like a jealous child breaking a toy so no one else can have it.

But to Jehovah justice is very important. You can't just wave away a crime due to the damage that has been incurred. So he allowed the charges against him to be tried, as in a court of law. He allowed Satan's theory to be tested in a manner of speaking. With the stipulation that 1. he wasn't going to allow it to prevent his original purpose for the angels and mankind from being fulfilled beyond what was necessary to establish his defense. That they should live forever in peace, in heaven and on earth respectively. And 2. that justice would be done.

From Jehovah's perspective the life he created, the life he gave us, is sacred. Belonging to God. According to the Bible our soul is our life, represented by our blood, so blood is sacred. To kill someone, or take their soul, requires the payment of the killer's own soul because it is taking something sacred to Jehovah. So the blood sacrifices represented a respect for or acknowledgement of his created life granted to us. For example, if a person was found murdered and no one knew who did the killing then they had to sacrifice a bull and spill its blood on the ground as a symbolic acknowledgement of God's possession.

Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

So immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah put in motion the plan for all of this to take place while Satan's theory was being tested. In a basic sense the steps were as follows.

1. Select a group of people.
2. Form a nation for those people.
3. Demonstrate to them what was going on by establishing a law which they couldn't keep due to their imperfection, or the incomplete nature of their lack of the aforementioned maturity.
4. Provide a way out through a Messiah or Christ, namely, Michael, who volunteered due to his love for mankind and his father, Jehovah's purpose. So Michael came to earth as a man, Jesus the Christ.


Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I couldn't find any fault in it. It is obviously inspired by much study and spiritual insight...and I learnt a few things. What a relief to find a righteous thinker on this board who actually believes in the wonderful faith inspired by the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ.

 

NicholasMarks

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2020, 05:48:09 AM »
I have no idea what you're talking about. The American atheist bullshit answer tends to be slightly less involved so this might take some getting used to.


I think and hope you have misunderstood what I was saying...It was aimed at Susan Doritt's response to you. I have just read your opening post and was quite impressed. Even so...Revelation clearly states that this system is coming to an end, and I can't wait. The atheists here deserve a last chance because the science behind it all is too complicated for them but the fiery lake of sulphur is on its way and the evidence is etched in the distressed skies in particular, the Sun and the Moon.

Stranger

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2020, 06:31:45 AM »
If any of you can point out where, how and why my beliefs are wrong I strongly encourage you to do so, keeping in mind, however, that merely repeating that it is wrong, incoherent, blah, blah, blah isn't, my any means, in fact, coming close to starting. You have to say where, how and or why they are wrong in a manner which transcends your own personal vacuous ideology.

Do you seriously not get it? You've told us a fantastical story, that's all. You have provided no reason as to why you think it corresponds to reality. It's not a question of saying why it's wrong if you've given us no reason to take it seriously in the first place.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2020, 06:44:08 AM »
I think and hope you have misunderstood what I was saying...It was aimed at Susan Doritt's response to you.

Was it. Well, I have no idea what you were talking about. Either that has to do with it being English or I've picked the wrong time to stop smoking.

I have just read your opening post and was quite impressed. Even so...Revelation clearly states that this system is coming to an end, and I can't wait.

That I can dig.

The atheists here deserve a last chance because the science behind it all is too complicated for them but the fiery lake of sulphur is on its way and the evidence is etched in the distressed skies in particular, the Sun and the Moon.

Science is a temporal method of investigation. It's like lava lamps and bellbottoms. Here today, gone tomorrow. Atheists like to think that science is the representation of logic and reason. It's nothing to do with those. Science is always wrong until it isn't science anymore.

 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2020, 06:53:13 AM »
Thoroughly enjoyed reading that.


Well, thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.

I couldn't find any fault in it.

There probably is. I often read over my posts and marvel at how wrong they are. I didn't mean to say that. That is the opposite of what I meant to say. That's just wrong. Et cetera. It's funny that no one ever calls me on the stuff that's actually wrong, but only the stuff they disagree with. Except for when I misinterpret what someone is saying which is often.

[Sigh]

It is obviously inspired by much study and spiritual insight...and I learnt a few things.

Good. I'm glad.

What a relief to find a righteous thinker on this board who actually believes in the wonderful faith inspired by the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ.

Nah. You'll not find any of those. If you see someone claiming to be a righteous thinker stand back. There isn't such a thing. It certainly isn't me.

"If my thought dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine." Bob Dylan
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

SusanDoris

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2020, 08:19:28 AM »
May I suggest to the mods that they create a separate board for TS and NM which the rest of us can then ignore?! :)
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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2020, 08:35:24 AM »
May I suggest to the mods that they create a separate board for TS and NM which the rest of us can then ignore?! :)

Then, when the atheists get tired of patting each other on the back - and believe it or not it would eventually happen - our board would be the most popular because an atheist can't be right until they think someone is wrong. 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2020, 08:43:32 AM »
 
Then, when the atheists get tired of patting each other on the back - and believe it or not it would eventually happen - our board would be the most popular because an atheist can't be right until they think someone is wrong.
;D ;D ;D

Aruntraveller

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2020, 09:10:29 AM »
Quote
Science is always wrong until it isn't science anymore.

Really? Can you demonstrate this with reference to our understanding of the boiling point of water?

Or are you just redefining the word science to fit into your own theory?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2020, 09:15:16 AM »
The meaning of the Bible can be summed up briefly as the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Why does an all-loving deity require a blood-sacrifice?  Is it really a sacrifice if Jesus comes back after two days - isn't that a weekend off?

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The tree of the knowledge of good and bad represented, to Adam, Jehovah God's sovereignty.

Until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, how could you they understand that disobedience was bad?  If God really didn't want them eating the fruit, why did he put it were two innocents could reach it?  Even if this is true, how does Adam and Eve's transgression justify threatening the rest of humanity throughout history with eternal punishment?

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That is, his right, as our creator, to decide for us what was good and what was bad until we, like children, matured to the point where we could do that for ourselves within the parameters of that sovereignty.

As a 'creator' I don't have a right to decide what's good or bad for my children, I have a duty to teach them to decide for themselves what's good or bad.  I have a responsibility to myself to try to set them an example, I don't get to lay down blanket rules as some sort of moral dictator.

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God created Michael first. Then Michael, as Jehovah's master worker, created everything through Jehovah's Holy Spirit or active force. The first thing that was created was the spiritual heavens. This was followed by the spirit beings, often called angels.

With all these divine beings in the pantheon, how come Judao-Christianity is depicted as a monotheism?

Quote
Then the physical heavens, or space as we know it, including Earth, the stars, sun and moon. Then everything on Earth eventually concluding with Adam and Eve.

The sequence depicted in the stories makes no sense in light of what we understand about the origins of the universe, the solar system, the planet and the emergence of life upon it.

Quote
Since we inherited sin through Adam then the only man who could pay the price for the blood of Adam, which had been perfect and without sin from the start until he did sin - was the blood of a man who was without sin.

Very little in what you've said so completely destroys the concept of this being a justifiable system as the idea that children who inherit traits from their parents can be somehow 'blamed' or 'punished' for manifesting them - even if those traits are somehow undesirable, you don't punish people for what's inherent in their nature.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2020, 10:31:27 AM »


As a 'creator' I don't have a right to decide what's good or bad for my children, I have a duty to teach them to decide for themselves what's good or bad.  I have a responsibility to myself to try to set them an example, I don't get to lay down blanket rules as some sort of moral dictator.

.
Sanctimonious humanist clap trap. If you are not prepared to examplify good or bad how can you possibly teach others to decide? Well meaning cobblers.

Owlswing

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2020, 10:36:04 AM »

Sanctimonious humanist claptrap. If you are not prepared to exemplify good or bad how can you possibly teach others to decide? Well-meaning cobblers.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2020, 10:45:21 AM »
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Sanctimonious? moi?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2020, 10:56:40 AM »

TS,

Quote
Science is a temporal method of investigation.

Maybe, but until something else is found with a more verifiably robust way of understanding the world we live in it’s the only show in town.

Quote
It's like lava lamps and bellbottoms. Here today, gone tomorrow.

What makes you think it’ll be gone tomorrow? You do realise that science is a method as well as an agglomeration of facts right? What method do you think will one day replace it?
 
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Atheists like to think that science is the representation of logic and reason.

Well, a representation at least and it’s scientists (and other reasoning people) who do that – not just atheists.

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It's nothing to do with those.

It has everything to do with those. Science is the practical application of logic and reason.

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Science is always wrong until it isn't science anymore.

Flat wrong. Science is right inasmuch as it establishes workable truths – ‘planes fly, penicillin cures. Your mistake is to imply it makes claims to certainty, which it doesn’t – that’s why it establishes theories that, in principle at least, are falsifiable. 

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Then, when the atheists get tired of patting each other on the back - and believe it or not it would eventually happen - our board would be the most popular because an atheist can't be right until they think someone is wrong.

It’s atheism (not atheists) and it the arguments people attempt to justify their beliefs, not “someone”. And yes, atheism stands in relation to theism in the same way that a-leprechaunism stands in relation to leprechaunism - and for the same reason.   
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NicholasMarks

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2020, 10:58:34 AM »
Why does an all-loving deity require a blood-sacrifice?  Is it really a sacrifice if Jesus comes back after two days - isn't that a weekend off?

 O.


I think I can help here...you see...at that time human sacrifice was all the rage. The high-priests realising that fear kept people obedient will have rituals demanding human sacrifice but Almighty God, in His wisdom led the Jewish nation out of that horrible practice by demanding a blood letting of animals that would die anyway. Painful for the owners who didn't enjoy losing their best livestock. Jesus was the last sacrifice introducing us to the space-age where we had the chance to be much less savage...but the high-priests still have their blood lusts and so many wars and rumours of wars to keep us all fearful...whilst they rule the roost.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2020, 10:59:46 AM »
TS,

Maybe, but until something else is found with a more verifiably robust way of understanding the world we live in it’s the only show in town.
 
The only science show in town, you mean.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2020, 11:00:05 AM »

but the fiery lake of sulphur is on its way and the evidence is etched in the distressed skies in particular, the Sun and the Moon.
Good, a positive statement.
Starting with the moon in particular. Could you please demonstrate accurately, the distress to which you refer?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2020, 11:01:03 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Sanctimonious humanist clap trap. If you are not prepared to examplify good or bad how can you possibly teach others to decide? Well meaning cobblers.

"examplify"?

Anyway, if you aren't prepared to "examplify" good and bad aesthetics how can you possibly teach others to decide which paintings are better than others?

You never have understood the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy you so often fall into have you.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2020, 11:03:07 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
The only science show in town, you mean.

No, the only show in town that's more reliably investigable and verifiable than just guessing (or, as religious people call it, "faith").   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2020, 11:05:26 AM »


It has everything to do with those. Science is the practical application of logic and reason.

 
I think that minimises the role of empiricism in science. I think French enlightenment science was carried out more by reason than experimentation but British empiricism made a greater mark. I think it might be more correct therefore to state that Science is the practical application of empiricism since logic and reason are also part of philosophy and philosophy and science aren't a perfect fit.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2020, 11:08:48 AM »
Vlad,

"examplify"?

Anyway, if you aren't prepared to "examplify" good and bad aesthetics how can you possibly teach others to decide which paintings are better than others?

You never have understood the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy you so often fall into have you.

Unfortunately neither Outrider nor you you have any way of moral arbitration so neither of you can possibly teach anything about good or bad or how to reach it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2020, 11:17:32 AM »
Vlad,

No, the only show in town that's more reliably investigable and verifiable than just guessing (or, as religious people call it, "faith").
Guessing or hypothesising as it is sometimes known is part of the scientific process meaning effectively you have been denigrating science for years.

SusanDoris

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2020, 11:28:30 AM »
Outrider

I really like your reply - the contrast of TS's and your words is, or rather, would be hilarious … if it was not also so sad that  people  believe all this stuff.
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NicholasMarks

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2020, 11:42:34 AM »
Good, a positive statement.
Starting with the moon in particular. Could you please demonstrate accurately, the distress to which you refer?


Look up in the skies yourself and see it first hand. I can tell you the full outcome because our Saviour...the Lord Jesus Christ/Yahshua, made it known to us 2000 years ago...and there is a place in it reserved for you unless you can repent, and quickly. Try reading Revelation and see low it all matches up. Then you will realise that, out of Christian love, I want to spare you all from it.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Meaning Of The Bible
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2020, 11:50:59 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
I think that minimises the role of empiricism in science. I think French enlightenment science was carried out more by reason than experimentation but British empiricism made a greater mark. I think it might be more correct therefore to state that Science is the practical application of empiricism since logic and reason are also part of philosophy and philosophy and science aren't a perfect fit.

I didn’t say that all reason and logic is testable scientifically – I just said that science is the practical application of reason and logic.

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Unfortunately neither Outrider nor you you have any way of moral arbitration so neither of you can possibly teach anything about good or bad or how to reach it.

FFS – will you at least look up “argumentum ad conseqeuntiam” before you fall into it again?

And of course you can “arbitrate” morality without claiming absolute moral good and bad, just as you can “arbitrate” good and bad paintings without claiming absolute aesthetics.

Why is this difficult for you to grasp?

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Guessing or hypothesising as it is sometimes known is part of the scientific process meaning effectively you have been denigrating science for years.

Wrong again. Guessing is the first part of the scientific process, but the process also requires finding evidence, testing it, peer review, making reliable predictions etc. By contrast, guessing is the beginning of theology but it’s also the end of it. Just calling it “faith” doesn’t get you off that hook.       
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