The Meaning Of The Bible

[Sebastian Toe]

the fiery lake of sulphur is on its way and the evidence is etched in the distressed skies in particular, the Sun and the Moon.

Hi Nick.

Been lovely clear skies here over the last few nights.
I've been looking at the moon with added accuracy and I have yet to see any change let alone "distress".
Could you help by giving some accurate and specific information in order that I might confirm your statement?

[Outrider]

Again you have completely ignored the overturning work of Jesus Christ.

I'm not the one ignoring it - if Jesus sacrifice was supposed to be worth anything, why are we still under threat of eternal punishment? What's changed because of it - you can still be damned for working on Saturday and/or Sunday, rape and slavery are still not prohibited, but these days you can choose your own haircut...

A Blood sacrifice?

'This is my blood, do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me...'

Tackling humanity and it's spiritual death is a bloody business but the physical anguish is accompanied by the spiritual anguish.

Our bodies are temporal, salvation sees the physical body stripped away and the physical concerns cast off, the afterlife is a spiritual concern - why is a corporeal sacrifice required?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm not the one ignoring it - if Jesus sacrifice was supposed to be worth anything, why are we still under threat of eternal punishment? What's changed because of it - you can still be damned for working on Saturday and/or Sunday, rape and slavery are still not prohibited, but these days you can choose your own haircut...

I think you are ignoring the point that Jesus has opened the way back do God in spite of sin. That is the essence of forgiveness....Taking the cost of another's transgression on yourself. However if the way is opened to a relationship with God, you are still not going to be forced into it if that is your choice.

There are Christian universalists and tendencies in people who I am sure enjoy relationship with Jesus to be universalists but one wonders why they are christian and yet we still have atheists. In other words you seem to be asking the strange question '' If Jesus and God have forgiven me why should I not continue to disbelieve him and argue that if he does exist he is a monster?'' It seems to me at this point you would need to concede belief in Christ and be a Christian universalist.

'This is my blood, do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me...' 

Our bodies are temporal, salvation sees the physical body stripped away and the physical concerns cast off, the afterlife is a spiritual concern - why is a corporeal sacrifice required?

O.

Bodies are important in fact Biblically we will receive spiritual bodies so bodies are never off the table presumably because personal delineation is a good thing. But then it is important to realise what is also going on at the crucifixion since Christ, because he takes our alienation from God on himself experiences God Forsakenness himself ''My God, My God why have you forsaken me?''

[Outrider]

I think you are ignoring the point that Jesus has opened the way back do God in spite of sin.

I think you're ignoring the point that the problems I'm indicating predate the story of Jesus - the purported behaviour of your god was problematic before the idea of manifesting an avatar as a blood sacrifice to not actually atone for someone else's transgressions was thrown out as a soft reboot.

That is the essence of forgiveness....Taking the cost of another's transgression on yourself.

Except that the story is actually the exact opposite, it's a god blaming the naive for his own failures, then transferring the punishment for that to the descendants of the blameless, then going through a full-blown 'look at me' drama-queen event to... not actually atone, and it's still on us.  This is God putting his transgression on humanity, then making a big scene about how gracious he is to allow us to grovel for forgiveness still.

However if the way is opened to a relationship with God, you are still not going to be forced into it if that is your choice.

Given the depiction, why would I want one?

...you seem to be asking the strange question '' If Jesus and God have forgiven me why should I not continue to disbelieve him and argue that if he does exist he is a monster?''

No, I'm asking the question 'if Jesus death was supposed to be atonement, and we're forgiven, why are we still be threatened with infinite punishment?'

It seems to me at this point you would need to concede belief in Christ and at be a Christian universalist.

It seems to me, at this point, that you don't appear to understand how 'for the sake of argument...' works.

Bodies are important in fact Biblically we will recieve spiritual bodies so bodies are never off the table presumably because personal delineation is a good thing.

Is that a widely held understanding - I'd always been of the impression that the afterlife is a purely spiritual affair, that no physical bodies are involved?

But then it is important to realise what is also going on at the crucifixion since Christ, because he takes our alienation from God on himself experiences God Forsakenness himself ''My God, My God why have you forsaken me?''

Why is our alienation from god on us, when he kicked Adam and Eve and their descendants out of the garden? He closed the gate and stationed the Angel with the burning sword to guard it - mankind didn't run from God, God sent mankind away.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you're ignoring the point that the problems I'm indicating predate the story of Jesus - the purported behaviour of your god was problematic before the idea of manifesting an avatar as a blood sacrifice to not actually atone for someone else's transgressions was thrown out as a soft reboot.

Except that the story is actually the exact opposite, it's a god blaming the naive for his own failures, then transferring the punishment for that to the descendants of the blameless, then going through a full-blown 'look at me' drama-queen event to... not actually atone, and it's still on us.  This is God putting his transgression on humanity, then making a big scene about how gracious he is to allow us to grovel for forgiveness still.

Given the depiction, why would I want one?

No, I'm asking the question 'if Jesus death was supposed to be atonement, and we're forgiven, why are we still be threatened with infinite punishment?'

It seems to me, at this point, that you don't appear to understand how 'for the sake of argument...' works.

Is that a widely held understanding - I'd always been of the impression that the afterlife is a purely spiritual affair, that no physical bodies are involved?

Why is our alienation from god on us, when he kicked Adam and Eve and their descendants out of the garden? He closed the gate and stationed the Angel with the burning sword to guard it - mankind didn't run from God, God sent mankind away.

O.

I think the point of the way being open to God is not lost but being deliberately ignored by you.
Doubtless this allows you to maintain your ''unreasonable God stance''. A walk with God has never been impossible because of what Christ has done. He will not though force you into it.

The only thing I think stopping you is that you want the moral high ground over him.

This makes you the rebel rather than the atheist.

[Stranger]

I think you are ignoring the point that Jesus has opened the way back do God in spite of sin.

Nobody is ignoring this - you are just ignoring people's answers.

But then it is important to realise what is also going on at the crucifixion since Christ, because he takes our alienation from God on himself experiences God Forsakenness himself ''My God, My God why have you forsaken me?''

This is still insane, patently unjust barbarism and certainly has nothing to to with anything remotely like a parent child relationship.

This monster god of yours imposed the alienation on all of humanity because of the actions of two people, then incarnated itself, made sure it was horribly tortured to death and imposed the alienation on itself, and in some bizarre, utterly deranged way, that was supposed to make things all right again, except that it didn't really reverse it because we are all still sinners and alienated unless we accept this insane nonsense.

It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. It's totally barking, carpet chewing mad.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody is ignoring this - you are just ignoring people's answers.

This is still insane, patently unjust barbarism and certainly has nothing to to with anything remotely like a parent child relationship.

This monster god of yours imposed the alienation on all of humanity because of the actions of two people, then incarnated itself, made sure it was horribly tortured to death and imposed the alienation on itself, and in some bizarre, utterly deranged way, that was supposed to make things all right again, except that it didn't really reverse it because we are all still sinners and alienated unless we accept this insane nonsense.

It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. It's totally barking, carpet chewing mad.

How did God impose alienation on humanity when humanity was originally not alienated and then decided to alienate itself?

Jesus died at the hands of his enemies. In war people die to attain an objective under circumstances of virtual certainty. As I believe Socrates once said. If the perfect human appeared it would be inevitable that some would move to kill them.

He did reverse from alienation because we need no longer be alienated from him and turn to him. He will not force this on us though.

I suppose it's a bit like someone dropping a legal case against you. You might be free from that but still have the same negative and destructive attitude to the person who has absorbed the cost you owe them.

Yes he was physically broken but who knows what the cost of sin in the world did to his spirit.

[Stranger]

How did God impose alienation on humanity when humanity was originally not alienated and then decided to alienate itself?

In the story, it wasn't humanity, it was just two humans. Nobody asked me if I wanted to be alienated and unavoidably a sinner.

Jesus died at the hands of his enemies. In war people die to attain an objective under circumstances of virtual certainty. As I believe Socrates once said. If the perfect human appeared it would be inevitable that some would move to kill them.

Get your act together, we had Spud talking about justice, then you saying it's a relationship, now it's turned into war. So if Jesus' enemies hadn't killed him, how would it have turned out? Did his enemies have free will?

He did reverse from alienation because we need no longer be alienated from him and turn to him. He will not force this on us though.

It's simply not reversed, otherwise we'd be in the same state as Adam and Eve, instead of being unavoidably sinners and condemned unless we accept this nonsensical drivel, with zero reason or evidence to tell us that it has any chance of being true. And even then, we still end up sinners (we never get back to the "sinless state" of Adam and Eve).

Yes he was physically broken but who knows what the cost of sin in the world did to his spirit.

In what way was putting all this shit on god incarnate supposed to make any difference? It's a totally nonsensical story - there is no justice, there is nothing like a relationship, and there isn't even anything like a war - it's just insane nonsense.

[Stranger]

This makes you the rebel rather than the atheist.

Once more you show no understanding of reductio ad absurdum.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In the story, it wasn't humanity, it was just two humans. Nobody asked me if I wanted to be alienated and unavoidably a sinner.

Get your act together, we had Spud talking about justice, then you saying it's a relationship, now it's turned into war. So if Jesus' enemies hadn't killed him, how would it have turned out? Did his enemies have free will?

It's simply not reversed, otherwise we'd be in the same state as Adam and Eve, instead of being unavoidably sinners and condemned unless we accept this nonsensical drivel, with zero reason or evidence to tell us that it has any chance of being true. And even then, we still end up sinners (we never get back to the "sinless state" of Adam and Eve).

In what way was putting all this shit on god incarnate supposed to make any difference? It's a totally nonsensical story - there is no justice, there is nothing like a relationship, and there isn't even anything like a war - it's just insane nonsense.

Two humans....or however many humans there were. All of them in perfect relationship with God. Mankind then in self alienation.

Does it matter how many humans broke relationship or whether one 'genius' introduced it to mankind(not historically speaking unknown) Christ though overturns that although it seems alienation is not disinvented. The way is open to a new relationship.

In terms of relationships. Somebody who thinks they should be forgiven by someone while continually damning them at one and the same time i.e. wanting forgiveness for their alienation from God and it's benefits while keeping the luxury of continuing to be alienated from God and it's benefits is hardly a consultant on relationships.

[Stranger]

Two humans....or however many humans there were. All of them in perfect relationship with God. Mankind then in self alienation.

Does it matter how many humans broke relationship or whether one 'genius' introduced it to mankind(not historically speaking unknown)

Of course it does, unless god is a vindictive monster. The only fair way is to give each individual the same choice. Mankind (as a whole) can only have been alienated due to the choice of a few, by an unjust, vindictive god

Christ though overturns that although it seems alienation is not disinvented. The way is open to a new relationship.

We now get even more injustice despite to bizarre sadomasochistic nonsense of god torturing itself to death.

In terms of relationships. Somebody who thinks they should be forgiven by someone while continually damning them at one and the same time i.e. wanting forgiveness for their alienation from God and it's benefits while keeping the luxury of continuing to be alienated from God and it's benefits is hardly a consultant on relationships.

What the hell makes you think I want to be forgiven? If I thought for a second any of this nonsense is actually true, god is a perverse monster that I want nothing to do with. It's god that should be begging humanity for forgiveness.

You still seem to be struggling with the idea of highlighting the internal inconsistencies of something by assuming its truth and pointing out the absurd conclusions if it were; reductio ad absurdum.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

In terms of relationships. Somebody who thinks they should be forgiven by someone while continually damning them at one and the same time i.e. wanting forgiveness for their alienation from God and it's benefits while keeping the luxury of continuing to be alienated from God and it's benefits is hardly a consultant on relationships.

Does it no occur to that, if there was a word of truth in your contemptible superstitions, then it’s your god who should be asking for forgiveness from us?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Does it no occur to that, if there was a word of truth in your contemptible superstitions, then it’s your god who should be asking for forgiveness from us?

What is contemptable about it...in general and for you personally?
Why should God be asking forgiveness from us and you personally? What do you think he has done to you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Of course it does, unless god is a vindictive monster. The only fair way is to give each individual the same choice.

Each individual has the same choice. Why do you think things are different for you from everybody else.

God is a vindictive monster because someone chooses to be isolated from God with all it's benefits but also have the benefits of not being isolated from God?

[Outrider]

I think the point of the way being open to God is not lost but being deliberately ignored by you.

It implies that things are more open than they were, but this puts the onus on humanity to apologise for being human, to grovel to a god that threw his toys out of the pram because he failed to take fairly obvious precuations.  God has apparently forgiven us through a human sacrifice, except that the sacrifice is magically back to life and we're still not actually forgiven... I'm not deliberately ignoring the idea of there being a 'way to god', I just don't see it as some reality-shattering gesture of magnanimity, given the context of the story.

Doubtless this allows you to maintain your ''unreasonable God stance''.

I note you've not actually countered any of my positions to say how they're justifiable - you apparently think this idea of god is just as unreasonable, but you don't have as much of an issue with that.

A walk with God has never been impossible because of what Christ has done. He will not though force you into it.

He won't force it, he'll just punish you for eternity if you don't do it... but it's entirely your choice.  Passive-aggressive much?

The only thing I think stopping you is that you want the moral high ground over him.

It doesn't matter if I want it, the way the story is written I could dig through to Australia and bathe in the blood of infants and I'd still have the moral high ground.

This makes you the rebel rather than the atheist.

And, again... look up 'for the sake of argument'.  Try https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/for-the-sake-of-argument or https://www.lexico.com/definition/for_the_sake_of_argument  or here https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/for+the+sake+of+argument.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

What is contemptable about it...in general and for you personally?

See below.

Why should God be asking forgiveness from us and you personally? What do you think he has done to you?

According to the story, I was born “sinful” because of something someone else did.

Your god should apologise to me for that.   

[Stranger]

Each individual has the same choice. Why do you think things are different for you from everybody else.

Are you being deliberately dim? The same choice as Adam and Eve, i.e. about becoming alienated in the first place.

God is a vindictive monster because someone chooses to be isolated from God with all it's benefits but also have the benefits of not being isolated from God?

Same question: are you being deliberately dim? Nobody has suggested anything like that. Try to address the arguments that have actually been made.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It implies that things are more open than they were, but this puts the onus on humanity to apologise for being human

No being Human originally meant walking with God obviously sin alienates but because of Christ Adamic separation was overturned. Self alienation as a maintained choice  cannot be said to be a human trait since people do accept the work of Christ.

You seem to be saying that to be authentically human you have to be a successful rebel against God and his works. Rebellion against God seems to common but the effects are dealt with in Christ but eternal rebellion against cannot be said to be common.

In other words you can still be human and walk with God.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are you being deliberately dim? The same choice as Adam and Eve, i.e. about becoming alienated in the first place.

You have the choice not to be alienated from God. The work of Adam has been overturned by Christ.

[Stranger]

You have the choice not to be alienated from God. The work of Adam has been overturned by Christ.

You really aren't paying attention, are you? It clearly hasn't been overturned because I don't have the same choice as Adam and Eve. I am not in a sinless state and god doesn't come for a chat in the garden. Instead I'm supposed believe this barking mad story, for which there is bugger all evidence or supporting reasoning, and which makes god a vindictive bloodthirsty monster, that's insane enough to think torturing itself to death is a way to make things right, and ask for its forgiveness, when it should be the one begging for my forgiveness if any of this nonsensical drivel were actually true.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You really aren't paying attention, are you? It clearly hasn't been overturned because I don't have the same choice as Adam and Eve. I am not in a sinless state and god doesn't come for a chat in the garden. Instead I'm supposed believe this barking mad story, for which there is bugger all evidence or supporting reasoning, and which makes god a vindictive bloodthirsty monster, that's insane enough to think torturing itself to death is a way to make things right, and ask for its forgiveness, when it should be the one begging for my forgiveness if any of this nonsensical drivel were actually true.

You have the choice to walk with God, what more can there be than that? If you are not in a sinless state, do you not think, if Jesus has overturned the effect of alienation which originally estranged man from God, that subsequent sin was in fact instigated by yourself? You seem to think this is all about getting off breaking commandment and working against the spirit. It is about your relationship with God. To turn away from God permanently means permanently turning away from God.

Supposing you were made sinless what would you choose to do.
I think you might figure that if you were sinless you could argue that you didn't need God's forgiveness that in fact you could do without him. And so Adam's sin is thus recapitulated.

Well you are offered a walk with God because God in Christ has opened the door by taking the effects of the fall on himself.

[Outrider]

No being Human originally meant walking with God obviously sin alienates but because of Christ Adamic separation was overturned.

If god can wash away the sin, why was a sacrifice required?  Why are humanity made to feel guilty for God's failure to adequately care for the creatures that he deliberately created as naive?

Self alienation as a maintained choice

God is allegedly all-powerful, but his means of sending an invitation is a poorly documented tale of magic amongst innumerable equally poorly evidenced tales of magic - self-alienation is not a 'choice' it's a consequence of the lack of reliable evidence.

You seem to be saying that to be authentically human you have to be a successful rebel against God and his works.

Is that how it seems to you? That's not how I read it.  I'm saying that curiosity is a human trait, and the story pits that curiosity in the Garden of Eden against ... nothing, because the moral understanding that we'd also consider a part of human nature these days is, in the story, not something that's been acquired.  That's on God, not on humanity, as the purported creator.  If curious humans manifest curiosity, why is god punishing them?

Rebellion against God seems to common but the effects are dealt with in Christ but eternal rebellion against cannot be said to be common.

Rebellion against tyranny is justified, though, is it not?

In other words you can still be human and walk with God.

I'm sure you can, but what doesn't seem to be possible is to be the god that's depicted in the Old (and, to a lesser extent, the New) Testamant and still be considered in any way a fount of morality.  What isn't possible to read the story, as written, and see that humanity has anything to atone for, or that god is all loving: god is a controlling narcissist making veiled and unjustifiable threats under a mask of 'punishment' in order to enforce arbitrary standards of behaviour.

O.

[Stranger]

You have the choice to walk with God, what more can there be than that?

Well, I dunno, maybe the first hint of any sensible reason to think any of this nonsense about a god is true? Then a story that doesn't mean that god itself would be a bloodthirsty, barbaric, unjust, insane monster.

I'm sure I could think of more but that will do for starters.

If you are not in a sinless state, do you not think, if Jesus has overturned the effect of alienation which originally estranged man from God, that subsequent sin was in fact instigated by yourself?

Either humans, in their present state, have a genuine choice to be sinless (and not need forgiveness) or they don't. If they do, at least some of them would take that choice and we wouldn't all be sinners. If they don't, god is unjust.

You seem to think this is all about getting off breaking commandment and working against the spirit. It is about your relationship with God. To turn away from God permanently means permanently turning away from God.

You're still ignoring the points. I'm not actually turning away from anything because I have no reason to think your god is a reality, and if it were, it would be a monster (for reasons you keep on totally ignoring), which would deserve to be turned away from.

Supposing you were made sinless what would you choose to do.

How can I possibly know?

I think you might figure that if you were sinless you could argue that you didn't need God's forgiveness that in fact you could do without him. And so Adam's sin is thus recapitulated.

Well this is the same situation as before. Either everybody would do that, and it's not a genuine choice, or not everybody would and it was unjust of god not to give us all the chance.

Well you are offered a walk with God because God in Christ has opened the door by taking the effects of the fall on himself.

This "taking the effects of the fall on himself" brings us right back to the utterly bizarre, vindictive, bloodthirsty, sadomasochistic, barking mad god.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well, I dunno, maybe the first hint of any sensible reason to think any of this nonsense about a god is true? Then a story that doesn't mean that god itself would be a bloodthirsty, barbaric, unjust, insane monster.

I'm sure I could think of more but that will do for starters.

Either humans, in their present state, have a genuine choice to be sinless (and not need forgiveness) or they don't. If they do, at least some of them would take that choice and we wouldn't all be sinners. If they don't, god is unjust.

You're still ignoring the points. I'm not actually turning away from anything because I have no reason to think your god is a reality, and if it were, it would be a monster (for reasons you keep on totally ignoring), which would deserve to be turned away from.

How can I possibly know?

Well this is the same situation as before. Either everybody would do that, and it's not a genuine choice, or not everybody would and it was unjust of god not to give us all the chance.

This "taking the effects of the fall on himself" brings us right back to the utterly bizarre, vindictive, bloodthirsty, sadomasochistic, barking mad god.

I don't actually know whether you are following God but your perception of him as mad and monstrous suggests you may not be. Do you think you would like the benefits of walking with God while walking away from him. In other words walk away from him but be treated otherwise?

What makes you think God isn't giving you the chance to walk with him?

You seem to be conflating active rebelling against with not believing in. They are not the same.

[Dicky Underpants]

This "taking the effects of the fall on himself" brings us right back to the utterly bizarre, vindictive, bloodthirsty, sadomasochistic, barking mad god.

Ah, well, he's doing it to himself - three in one. Not three gods but One, doncha know?