The Meaning Of The Bible

[Stranger]

I don't actually know whether you are following God but your perception of him as mad and monstrous suggests you may not be.

I'm commenting on the bible stories and what you and Spud have said about them - I don't believe in any gods, so of course I'm not following one of them.

Do you think you would like the benefits of walking with God while walking away from him. In other words walk away from him but be treated otherwise?

What benefits? The god you are talking about appears to be a bloodthirsty, barbaric, vindictive monster.

What makes you think God isn't giving you the chance to walk with him?

The complete lack of any evidence or reasoning that suggests that it exists and the nonsensical drivel in the bible and in what you and Spud have said.

You seem to be conflating active rebelling against with not believing in. They are not the same.

You seem unable to grasp that I'm criticising a story on its own terms. For fuck's sake, this isn't difficult. If somebody tells somebody a nonsensical story, and they say "but if that were true, then..." do you really get all confused about what is going on? Is that completely beyond your intellectual ability to cope with?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Either humans, in their present state, have a genuine choice to be sinless (and not need forgiveness) or they don't. If they do, at least some of them would take that choice and we wouldn't all be sinners. If they don't, god is unjust.

You're still ignoring the points. I'm not actually turning away from anything because I have no reason to think your god is a reality, and if it were, it would be a monster (for reasons you keep on totally ignoring), which would deserve to be turned away from.

How can I possibly know?

Well this is the same situation as before. Either everybody would do that, and it's not a genuine choice, or not everybody would and it was unjust of god not to give us all the chance.

This "taking the effects of the fall on himself" brings us right back to the utterly bizarre, vindictive, bloodthirsty, sadomasochistic, barking mad god.

I'm sorry I'm not ignoring those reasons for thinking God is an unjust monster, I am just not convinced by them. Wanting not to walk with God but experience walking with God makes no sense unless you are merely after the benefits. But God himself is the benefit. Separating from God is separating with God.

Even if there were sinless people, namely, people in perfect unbroken communion with God, is that you?
Since sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ God is still open to you should you so choose. If you choose to walk away from God how can you be in communion with him. In other words, if you don't want him is it reasonable to complain that you do not have him?

Taking the effects of of the fall on himself doesn't mean you are monstrous. Would you not relieve your offspring of the harm they might do to themselves by taking the cost of their actions on yourself?

[Stranger]

Wanting not to walk with God but experience walking with God makes no sense unless you are merely after the benefits.

Who are you talking about? I don't believe any of this, so it can't be me. I'm arguing that the god in the story is condemned by its own actions.

Even if there were sinless people, namely, people in perfect unbroken communion with God, is that you?
Since sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ God is still open to you should you so choose. If you choose to walk away from God how can you be in communion with him. In other words, if you don't want him is it reasonable to complain that you do not have him?

It's got nothing to do with me. As I said (and you're still ignoring), in the story, either we (humans in general) have a choice to be sinless or we don't. If we do then some people would make that choice, and the bible is wrong to call us all sinners. If we don't then god is unjust in condemning us for being the way it chose to make us.

Back in the real world, there is no reason to take the idea of this god seriously in the first place, so it's not a question of "walking away". If this god of yours exists in reality, it's compounding its injustice by playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek.

Taking the effects of of the fall on himself doesn't mean you are monstrous. Would you not relieve your offspring of the harm they might do to themselves by taking the cost of their actions on yourself?

But it's god that made up the monstrous and unjust "effects" in the first place, and it's god who decided that the bizarre act of torturing itself to death would make things all right again. It's like a parent deciding that their child should be beaten with a big stick if it eats an extra biscuit before dinner and then, when they do, takes to self-flagellation instead (and then still threatens the kid with the beating if they don't worship them).

Look, the story goes that god made two people with no knowledge of good and evil, put a fruit tree in the garden, told them not to eat the fruit, and then added a talking snake to encourage them to do just that. One really doesn't have to be omniscient to imagine how it might go wrong. Then it visited the consequences on the whole of humanity, when it wouldn't even have been fair to do it to Adam and Eve themselves (because they didn't know right from wrong), and then instigated this bizarre sadomasochistic nonsense with the incarnation, torturing to death, and magicking back to life, so that if we now grovel enough and believe this silliness, we might not be condemned for being condemned for something somebody else did a long time ago.

This is nothing like justice and it's nothing like a parent-child relationship - it's just bizarre, nonsensical, and horrifying.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who are you talking about? I don't believe any of this, so it can't be me. I'm arguing that the god in the story is condemned by its own actions.

It's got nothing to do with me. As I said (and you're still ignoring), in the story, either we (humans in general) have a choice to be sinless or we don't. If we do then some people would make that choice, and the bible is wrong to call us all sinners. If we don't then god is unjust in condemning us for being the way it chose to make us.

Back in the real world, there is no reason to take the idea of this god seriously in the first place, so it's not a question of "walking away". If this god of yours exists in reality, it's compounding its injustice by playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek.

But it's god that made up the monstrous and unjust "effects" in the first place, and it's god who decided that the bizarre act of torturing itself to death would make things all right again. It's like a parent deciding that their child should be beaten with a big stick if it eats an extra biscuit before dinner and then, when they do, takes to self-flagellation instead (and then still threatens the kid with the beating if they don't worship them).

Look, the story goes that god made two people with no knowledge of good and evil, put a fruit tree in the garden, told them not to eat the fruit, and then added a talking snake to encourage them to do just that. One really doesn't have to be omniscient to imagine how it might go wrong. Then it visited the consequences on the whole of humanity, when it wouldn't even have been fair to do it to Adam and Eve themselves (because they didn't know right from wrong), and then instigated this bizarre sadomasochistic nonsense with the incarnation, torturing to death, and magicking back to life, so that if we now grovel enough and believe this silliness, we might not be condemned for being condemned for something somebody else did a long time ago.

This is nothing like justice and it's nothing like a parent-child relationship - it's just bizarre, nonsensical, and horrifying.

I dont think we can choose sinlessness except in the expectation in the next life. In any case walking with God is the route. IM NOT SURE YOU FULLY REALISED THIS.

[Stranger]

I dont think we can choose sinlessness except in the expectation in the next life.

Which means it's in our nature and god is unjust to judge us for being the way it made us.

IM NOT SURE YOU FULLY REALISED THIS.

I'm not sure you're taking the slightest bit of notice of what I'm saying. It's an insane story; I don't get how Christians can be totally blind to how daft it is.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which means it's in our nature and god is unjust to judge us for being the way it made us.

I think it's environmentally extremely difficult to be accounted as sinless. Babies may be sinless but that may well be a condition which environmentally speaking is impossible to maintain. By environment I mean cultural, social, personal environment as well as physical environment. The effect of humanity and human sin on these is I would have thought undeniably toxic.

Man created/evolves
Man walks with God
Mankind spiritually breaks with God
Mankind's subsequent efforts modify his previous environment detrimentally.
God offers way in which man can again walk with God overturning the spiritual divide.

At what point do you think God is culpable?

[Stranger]

I think it's environmentally extremely difficult to be accounted as sinless. Babies may be sinless but that may well be a condition which environmentally speaking is impossible to maintain. By environment I mean cultural, social, personal environment as well as physical environment. The effect of humanity and human sin on these is I would have thought undeniably toxic.

If it's not a choice that any human can practically make (for whatever reason), then it's unjust for god to judge us for not making it.

Mankind spiritually breaks with God
Mankind's subsequent efforts modify his previous environment detrimentally.

'Mankind' doesn't do anything, individuals do. In your storybook, it's just two individuals who didn't even know right from wrong - and we all get to pay the price.

God offers way in which man can again walk with God overturning the spiritual divide.

A bizarre perverse and barbaric way that wouldn't have been necessary if it wasn't for the initial injustice and doesn't even work in restoring the previous state.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If it's not a choice that any human can practically make (for whatever reason), then it's unjust for god to judge us for not making it.

The choice is now whether we accept the opening back to God as achieved by Jesus Christ.

But you are ignoring that the spiritual separation due to adam's sin has been counteracted by Christ despite me pointing that out. Spiritual separation or spiritual connection leading to sinlessness is now our choice.

If you chose not to be with God, how is God culpable for that choice?

[Stranger]

The choice is now whether we accept the opening back to God as achieved by Jesus Christ.

So you claim, not only without reasoning or evidence, but while totally ignoring the insanity of the story it's based on.

But you are ignoring that the spiritual separation due to adam's sin has been counteracted by Christ despite me pointing that out.

Patently false. I have referred to it (and its absurdity) multiple times.

Spiritual separation or spiritual connection leading to sinlessness is now our choice.

Once again ignoring the insanity and injustice of the story behind it, and the fact that there is no reasoning or evidence to support the idea that it's true.

If you chose not to be with God, how is God culpable for that choice?

I refer you to the whole series of points I've already made and that you've totally ignored.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you claim, not only without reasoning or evidence, but while totally ignoring the insanity of the story it's based on.

Patently false. I have referred to it (and its absurdity) multiple times.

Once again ignoring the insanity and injustice of the story behind it, and the fact that there is no reasoning or evidence to support the idea that it's true.

I refer you to the whole series of points I've already made and that you've totally ignored.

Or... God is not culpable for your choice. You cannot argue that it is impossible to make the choice for God because some do.

You do not think the story absurd you have used your understanding to conclude God culpable. But of what? That to me is not actually explained by you.

I even staged the process for you....what stages did you think God was culpable?.....I don't think you said.

Christ has broken the spiritual separation wrought by Adam. The only channel for spiritual separation is your own choice. There is no way God is culpable.

[jeremyp]

Or... God is not culpable for your choice. You cannot argue that it is impossible to make the choice for God because some do.

You do not think the story absurd you have used your understanding to conclude God culpable. But of what? That to me is not actually explained by you.

I even staged the process for you....what stages did you think God was culpable?.....I don't think you said.

Christ has broken the spiritual separation wrought by Adam. The only channel for spiritual separation is your own choice. There is no way God is culpable.

Who made the rule that sins have to be punished by death? Was it not God?

Who made the rule that it is acceptable for somebody else to take your punishment for you? Was it not God?

Who made the rule that a death sentence still counts if the person is magicked alive again afterwards? Was it not God?

If God was so determined to let us all off the hook, why didn't he just forgive us instead of going through the whole death and resurrection pantomime?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who made the rule that sins have to be punished by death? Was it not God?

Who made the rule that it is acceptable for somebody else to take your punishment for you? Was it not God?

Who made the rule that a death sentence still counts if the person is magicked alive again afterwards? Was it not God?

If God was so determined to let us all off the hook, why didn't he just forgive us instead of going through the whole death and resurrection pantomime?

The bible talks of the wages of sin. Yes sin has consequences. One of which is separation or alienation from God. If you alienate yourself from God why does it need me to point out that one of the consequences of that is alienation from God. Without Christ there is no undoing of the spiritual alienation wrought by the first decisions to alienate from God. But without doubt we have Christ and the way is open to a relationship with God.

Jesus' act is forgiveness writ large. When we forgive we take the cost on ourselves,  By burying retaliation and even justice in oneself. In Jesus God takes the costs on himself namely the spiritual consequences of alienation and it's corruption on ourselves. If we choose alienation in spite of Christ we are unsurprisingly, alienated.

[Stranger]

Or... God is not culpable for your choice. You cannot argue that it is impossible to make the choice for God because some do.

I think you mean some people choose to follow several different, and mutually contradictory, religions. I see no evidence or reasoning to support the notion that there is a god at all.

Going back to the barking mad story, you seem to be confusing choosing to grovel to god for forgiveness with choosing to not sin in the first place. If the later is impossible, god is unjust to judge us for it.

You do not think the story absurd you have used your understanding to conclude God culpable. But of what? That to me is not actually explained by you.

I even staged the process for you....what stages did you think God was culpable?.....I don't think you said.

• Judging Adam and Eve despite the fact that they didn't know right from wrong.
• Visiting the consequences on all of humanity.
• Judging modern day humans for something they (apparently) have no control over (being sinners).
• Proscribing an a barbaric, bloodthirsty, and absurd punishment.
• Engaging in the absurd, sadomasochistic, unjust, nonsense of incarnation, torture, death, and magicked back to life, in order to forgive us for being the way it decided we should be in the first place.
• Withholding the forgiveness if we don't believe this nonsensical drivel.
• An ineffective 'solution' to the problem it made, because even if we do accept this nonsense it doesn't actually restore the relationship and sinless state Adam and Eve started with.
• Playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek by giving us no evidence that it even exists.

Christ has broken the spiritual separation wrought by Adam.

Obviously not.

The only channel for spiritual separation is your own choice. There is no way God is culpable.

It's not a choice. I find the whole story absurd and there is no evidence or reasoning to suggest it's true (thankfully). I can't choose to find this nonsensical drivel credible or believable and I can't just decide to be convinced when there's a total lack of any evidence or reasoning.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you mean some people choose to follow several different, and mutually contradictory, religions. I see no evidence or reasoning to support the notion that there is a god at all.

Going back to the barking mad story, you seem to be confusing choosing to grovel to god for forgiveness with choosing to not sin in the first place. If the later is impossible, god is unjust to judge us for it.

• Judging Adam and Eve despite the fact that they didn't know right from wrong.
• Visiting the consequences on all of humanity.
• Judging modern day humans for something they (apparently) have no control over (being sinners).
• Proscribing an a barbaric, bloodthirsty, and absurd punishment.
• Engaging in the absurd, sadomasochistic, unjust, nonsense of incarnation, torture, death, and magicked back to life, in order to forgive us for being the way it decided we should be in the first place.
• Withholding the forgiveness if we don't believe this nonsensical drivel.
• An ineffective 'solution' to the problem it made, because even if we do accept this nonsense it doesn't actually restore the relationship and sinless state Adam and Eve started with.
• Playing a cruel game of hide-and-seek by giving us no evidence that it even exists.

Obviously not.

1: Any spiritual alienation caused by Adam and Eve's choice to disregard God is undone by Jesus Christ.
2: Sounds like you want to live in a consequence free universe. The point is absurd.
3: The spiritual effect of Adam's sin is overturned, the way back to God is open. Intelligence involves judgment, separation is therefore one's own choice.
4: People perpetratred this but the real cost is spiritual suffering of God through taking on sin.
5: How can separating from God possibly be forgiven when forgiveness is being with God in a right relationship. Tell me if God forgave you for walking away from you what form could that forgiveness possible be that overcame the consequence of walking away.
6: Allowing you to be with God is the only way of being allowed to be with God. What more can be done in this respect? I don't see why this eludes you.
7: How do you mean the relationship cannot be restored by Christ. Please state how this isn't possible?
8: I think you are making two errors here firstly that you yourself cannot ever enter a relationship with God and secondly that humanity is in the same boat as you.

[jeremyp]

The bible talks of the wages of sin.

Who set the rule that the ways of sin are death? Was it not God?

If the death is subsequently rescinded have the wages really been paid?

Without Christ there is no undoing of the spiritual alienation wrought by the first decisions to alienate from God.

Who made that rule? Was it not God?

When we forgive we take the cost on ourselves,

Do we? Who made that rule? Was it not God?

In Jesus God takes the costs on himself namely the spiritual consequences of alienation and it's corruption on ourselves. If we choose alienation in spite of Christ we are unsurprisingly, alienated.

What are the costs of our sins? Who made the rule that, if you sin you have to die? Was it not God?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who set the rule that the ways of sin are death? Was it not God?
Everything has consequence. It is reasonable that if you choose to be with God you will in fact be with God and if you choose to walk away from God you will in fact have walked away from God. For these not to be the case would be plainly absurd.

If the death is subsequently rescinded have the wages really been paid?
Who made that rule? Was it not God?

The wages of Adam's sin certainly. There are biblical statements that if you reject God you will die in your OWN sins. There are christians who believe that Jesus death is only effective for those who choose the entry Christ has opened for them. What is certain is that if you walk away you are in fact walking away

What are the costs of our sins? Who made the rule that, if you sin you have to die? Was it not God?

There is a cost. The cost being alienation from God, others and ourselves. To think you can alienated in this way and not be alienated in this way is plainly absurd.

[Stranger]

1: Any spiritual alienation caused by Adam and Eve's choice to disregard God is undone by Jesus Christ.

Doesn't address the point even if it were true, which it isn't (even in the story).

2: Sounds like you want to live in a consequence free universe. The point is absurd.

Drivel. Deliberately visiting the consequences of parents' actions on all future generations is manifestly unjust.

3: The spiritual effect of Adam's sin is overturned, the way back to God is open. Intelligence involves judgment, separation is therefore one's own choice.

Drivel for the reasons I've outlined multiple times.

4: People perpetratred this but the real cost is spiritual suffering of God through taking on sin.

Doesn't address the point.

5: How can separating from God possibly be forgiven when forgiveness is being with God in a right relationship. Tell me if God forgave you for walking away from you what form could that forgiveness possible be that overcame the consequence of walking away.

Doesn't address the point.

6: Allowing you to be with God is the only way of being allowed to be with God. What more can be done in this respect? I don't see why this eludes you.

Doesn't address the point.

7: How do you mean the relationship cannot be restored by Christ. Please state how this isn't possible?

FFS, why can't you pay attention? Because we don't end up back in the sinless state, strolling around a garden having nice chats with god, even if we do swallow the nonsensical gibberish.

8: I think you are making two errors here firstly that you yourself cannot ever enter a relationship with God and secondly that humanity is in the same boat as you.

Gibberish. There is no evidence and no reasoning that I have ever seen that in any way points to this nonsense being true.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Drivel. Deliberately visiting the consequences of parents' actions on all future generations is manifestly unjust.

Changing the physical universe into a consequence free absurdity to handwave consequence away would have been manifestly unjust.
Sending Jesus to keep the channels open is manifestly highly Just.

[Stranger]

Changing the physical universe into a consequence free absurdity to handwave consequence away would have been manifestly unjust.

This is misrepresentation, I never suggested that the universe should be consequence free. What you are trying to defend here is akin to the state saying the punishment for breaking the law (even unknowingly) is for you, your children, and all their descendants to be taken into slavery.

Sending Jesus to keep the channels open is manifestly highly Just.

You have a bizarre and perverse idea of justice then, or, perhaps more likely, you can't bring yourself to see your superstition as being based on a bizarre and perverse idea of justice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This is misrepresentation, I never suggested that the universe should be consequence free. What you are trying to defend here is akin to the state saying the punishment for breaking the law (even unknowingly) is for you, your children, and all their descendants to be taken into slavery.

I think a better analogy is if the parents are unhappy with each other, get a house and Garden smash it up and have old cars in the Garden it isn't going to be a nice place to grow up in.

You are IMHO advocating a consequence free existence spiritually Jesus has settled the consequence and the way to God is now open. Christians will testify to being able to get their ''house'' in order after finding Christ.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You have a bizarre and perverse idea of justice then, or, perhaps more likely, you can't bring yourself to see your superstition as being based on a bizarre and perverse idea of justice.

I find nothing perverse or unjust in God offering a relationship with us.

You strike me as having the attitude of the RAF pilot in Armstrong and Miller who bombs Bristol and complains that they blamed him for it as if it was his fault.

[Stranger]

I think a better analogy is if the parents are unhappy with each other, get a house and Garden smash it up and have old cars in the Garden it isn't going to be a nice place to grow up in.

Except it's nothing like that at all. The consequences in your mad story are by design - god made the rules and made a deliberate decision that the consequences should extend to all of humanity.

You are IMHO advocating a consequence free existence...

Then you're simply not paying attention.

...spiritually Jesus has settled the consequence...

We are not in the same place as Adam and Eve started from, so he hasn't.

...and the way to God is now open.

Only if we accept the nonsensical, barbaric, unjust, horrific nonsense and ask for forgiveness for being punished for what somebody else did a long time ago and without knowledge of good and evil. All without the first hint of a morsel of a scintilla of evidence or reasoning to suggest that this implausible nonsense might be true.

Christians will testify to being able to get their ''house'' in order after finding Christ.

As will any number of people in other religions, sects, and cults, with contradictory stories.   

[Stranger]

I find nothing perverse or unjust in God offering a relationship with us.

More 'misunderstanding'. I didn't suggest that there was - it's the perverse and unjust details that are the problem.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except it's nothing like that at all. The consequences in your mad story are by design - god made the rules and made a deliberate decision that the consequences should extend to all of humanity.

Then you're simply not paying attention.

We are not in the same place as Adam and Eve started from, so he hasn't.

Only if we accept the nonsensical, barbaric, unjust, horrific nonsense and ask for forgiveness for being punished for what somebody else did a long time ago and without knowledge of good and evil. All without the first hint of a morsel of a scintilla of evidence or reasoning to suggest that this implausible nonsense might be true.

As will any number of people in other religions, sects, and cults, with contradictory stories.   

God doesn't ask you to  ask for forgiveness for what other people did a long time ago. Christ has dealt with that. There is though, the matter of your own standing with God.

[Stranger]

God doesn't ask you to  ask for forgiveness for what other people did a long time ago. Christ has dealt with that. There is though, the matter of your own standing with God.

And round and round and round you go, never actually addressing the points. According to the mad story, I am not given the choice Adam and Eve were and, so it seems, find myself in the situation of being (unavoidably) a sinner because of the consequences of their choice. Christ has not dealt with the consequences otherwise I would have the same choice (from a sinless starting point) as Adam and Eve.