The Meaning Of The Bible

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And round and round and round you go, never actually addressing the points. According to the mad story, I am not given the choice Adam and Eve were and, so it seems, find myself in the situation of being (unavoidably) a sinner because of the consequences of their choice. Christ has not dealt with the consequences otherwise I would have the same choice (from a sinless starting point) as Adam and Eve.

They had the choice to continue there lives with God....and you have the choice to continue your life with God and you have the same choice as everybody else. A sinless start is patently irrelevent to the choice to be with God or to not be with God.

[Stranger]

They had the choice to continue there lives with God....and you have the choice to continue your life with God and you have the same choice as everybody else. A sinless start is patently irrelevent to the choice to be with God or to not be with God.

Drivel - they had no need to grovel for forgiveness or swallow the patently unjust, barbaric, bloodthirsty nonsense. They also had direct evidence and experience of god (and the talking snake), all they lacked was any sense of right and wrong - it seems your god will do anything but offer anybody a fully just and fair choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Drivel - they had no need to grovel for forgiveness or swallow the patently unjust, barbaric, bloodthirsty nonsense. They also had direct evidence and experience of god (and the talking snake), all they lacked was any sense of right and wrong.

They had direct and evidence experience of God and yet still disregarded him. They had a sense of right because they had direct evidence and experience of God.

What is it you are against Grovelling or forgiveness. Whether they grovelled for the forgiveness that is there because of Christ I know not.

I am confused as to what more or else could you want than a relationship with God  which is on offer......other of course than not having a relationship with God?

[Stranger]

They had direct and evidence experience of God and yet still disregarded him.

Perhaps because they had no knowledge of good and evil?

They had a sense of right because they had direct evidence and experience of God.

Without a knowledge of good and evil how would they know god was good and the talking snake was evil?

What is it you are against Grovelling or forgiveness.

Because if this absurd story about a barbaric, unjust, sadomasochistic, mad as a box of frogs god is in the least bit accurate, it's god that should be grovelling for humanity's forgiveness.

I am confused as to what more or else could you want than a relationship with God  which is on offer......other of course than not having a relationship with God?

I'm not going to go though everything all over again. You haven't directly addressed a single one of my points.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps because they had no knowledge of good and evil?

They had knowledge of Good because they had direct experience and evidence of God as you put it. They were in personal relationship and able even to maintain this until they chose to disregard God and put their trust in something else.

God had given them a warning about evil.

Now I don't understand why you insist that you or humanity are irrevokeably under condemnation rather than being offered a relationship.

Also I think you are still under the impression that you can be sinless and Godless.

Explain how you think that would work.

[Stranger]

They had knowledge of Good because they had direct experience and evidence of God as you put it. They were in personal relationship and able even to maintain this until they chose to disregard God and put their trust in something else.

God had given them a warning about evil.

Well now you're contradicting what was said earlier. Also, what was the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" if they already had that knowledge?

Now I don't understand why you insist that you or humanity are irrevokeably under condemnation rather than being offered a relationship.

Try reading what I said and responding to it instead of answering what you'd rather I'd have said (which appears to be what you've been doing throughout this conversation).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well now you're contradicting what was said earlier. Also, what was the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" if they already had that knowledge?

Try reading what I said and responding to it instead of answering what you'd rather I'd have said (which appears to be what you've been doing throughout this conversation).

They were told by God not to eat from the tree and they disregarded God. Bang!....there's the fall and the separation.

A metaphor for disregarding God.

[Stranger]

They were told by God not to eat from the tree and they disregarded God. Bang!....there's the fall and the separation.

A metaphor for disregarding God.

What god? I see no god(s) to disregard. And you're still ignoring everything I've actually been saying.

[NicholasMarks]

They were told by God not to eat from the tree and they disregarded God. Bang!....there's the fall and the separation.

A metaphor for disregarding God.

The key to understanding this first sin, for me, is that it was the first act of sorcery. Where Satan, who had a full righteous knowledge took the innocence of this couple and duped them. They should have remained true to God's righteous instructions, but, not really understanding the value behind this act, they allowed themselves to be duped, and there innocence was snatched away from them. What they had done started the slow and disastrous path of our genetic downfall...a path we are still falling down today. It's all coming to a head now...everyone seems to be practicing the art of deception...we call it conmanship but the real conners are never really seen...they are hidden from view whilst the lies and deceit that are spun up by them are keeping us all confused and genetically frustrated, but it always involves the innocent...those who believe they are being told the truth whilst the con artist doesn't know what truth is. I could name a few of these con artists who have devastated the modern world...but we are best following accurate righteous teaching and keep them out of our lives...and then...who knows...our genetic health might return, because that's the Christian promise.

 

[ippy]

They had the choice to continue there lives with God....and you have the choice to continue your life with God and you have the same choice as everybody else. A sinless start is patently irrelevent to the choice to be with God or to not be with God.

It's that time of year again Vlad, topnotchsigns.co.uk the sandwich board people don't forget the usual, 'YOUR SINS ARE THE WAGES OF DEATH', or something like that, also don't forget to keep a lookout for any obstructions if you decide to go out with the full overhead regalia, yes topnotchsigns.co.uk Vlad they'll see you alright.

ippy.

[Sebastian Toe]

It's all coming to a head now...everyone seems to be practicing the art of deception...we call it conmanship

....like someone saying that they can see something amiss with the moon, but not qualifying their assertion with actual facts?
That kind of deceiving or conmanship?


Yes, it's everywhere!

[Stranger]

...everyone seems to be practicing the art of deception...

Yourself being a good example. You're not actually very good at it but 10 out of 10 for effort, with all the meaningless nonsense and blatant falsehoods about science.

...whilst the con artist doesn't know what truth is.

Again, one Nicholas Marks and his ignorance of science springs to mind.

[torridon]

The key to understanding this first sin, for me, is that it was the first act of sorcery. Where Satan, who had a full righteous knowledge took the innocence of this couple and duped them ..

So why did God not protect them from that ?  Was it because he didn't want to, or because he isn't actually all that mighty, after all ?

[torridon]

It's all coming to a head now...everyone seems to be practicing the art of deception...we call it conmanship.

One way to expose a conman is to require of them to substantiate their claims; and if they can't, they tend to disappear for a while, or sometimes they try to tough it out with smoke and mirrors and misdirection.  This is why you continually get challenged to justify your claims when you pop on here from time to time.

[NicholasMarks]

One way to expose a conman is to require of them to substantiate their claims; and if they can't, they tend to disappear for a while, or sometimes they try to tough it out with smoke and mirrors and misdirection.  This is why you continually get challenged to justify your claims when you pop on here from time to time.

The problem with that is that the Holy Bible exists but your refusal to take in any of its content means you can't see the wonderful truth presented from within it. That's ok. You don't want to know what is in our future or what is occurring right now which will impact upon all our futures...You can't accept that having an indestructible spirit can be a good thing or a terrible thing depending upon the residence of that spirit which will either be here on planet Earth, in the flesh, in good health, happiness, and good order...or aboard a fiery lake of sulphur with no remission and a whole lot of time to dwell on what could have been...Again, a natural event, but one that Almighty God has warned us about and takes full responsibility for because it is an expression of his Mighty Power...and He has done His best to steer us away from it.

[Stranger]

The problem with that is that the Holy Bible exists but your refusal to take in any of its content means you can't see the wonderful truth presented from within it. That's ok. You don't want to know what is in our future or what is occurring right now which will impact upon all our futures...You can't accept that having an indestructible spirit can be a good thing or a terrible thing depending upon the residence of that spirit which will either be here on planet Earth, in the flesh, in good health, happiness, and good order...or aboard a fiery lake of sulphur with no remission and a whole lot of time to dwell on what could have been...Again, a natural event, but one that Almighty God has warned us about and takes full responsibility for because it is an expression of his Mighty Power...and He has done His best to steer us away from it.

So why should we believe this drivel? Not only have you failed to provide any hint of evidence or reasoning to support it, your track record of making totally false and nonsensical statements about science, suggest that you care very little about truth and accuracy.

[torridon]

The problem with that is that the Holy Bible exists but your refusal to take in any of its content means you can't see the wonderful truth presented from within it. That's ok. You don't want to know what is in our future or what is occurring right now which will impact upon all our futures...You can't accept that having an indestructible spirit can be a good thing or a terrible thing depending upon the residence of that spirit which will either be here on planet Earth, in the flesh, in good health, happiness, and good order...or aboard a fiery lake of sulphur with no remission and a whole lot of time to dwell on what could have been...Again, a natural event, but one that Almighty God has warned us about and takes full responsibility for because it is an expression of his Mighty Power...and He has done His best to steer us away from it.

There is no evidence for an 'indestructible spirit' though. In fact, we understand this, that nothing lasts forever.  That is the nature of reality and you are just dodging it.

[jeremyp]

Everything has consequence.

Yes but who set the rule that the wages of sin are death? Was it not God?

It is reasonable that if you choose to be with God you will in fact be with God and if you choose to walk away from God you will in fact have walked away from God. For these not to be the case would be plainly absurd.

Nothing in the above implies you have to die for choosing not to be with God though. Who made the rule that you have to be punished for walking way from God? Was it not God?

The wages of Adam's sin certainly. There are biblical statements that if you reject God you will die in your OWN sins. There are christians who believe that Jesus death is only effective for those who choose the entry Christ has opened for them. What is certain is that if you walk away you are in fact walking away

Is that a long winded way of admitting that God did make the rule that dying and then coming alive again is enough to pay the wages of sin? Why could he not make a rule that involves not dying at all? Or, if killing himself in the form of his son and bringing himself back to life works, why not just kill everybody and bring them all back to life?

There is a cost. The cost being alienation from God

I'm already alienated from God (assuming he exists). I can tell you right now that it isn't really much of a punishment.

The thing is (in case you haven't twigged already) that all of these rules you are quoting - "the wages of sin are death", "the price has to be paid" etc - were set in place by your god (assuming he exists). In that light, pretty much everything to do with Jesus' "perfect" not-really-a-sacrifice looks stupid.

Notwithstanding the fact that it's totally bonkers that other people can step in and take the punishment for crimes I have done, the idea that I can take back my "payment" after a few days is complete nonsense. If the government allowed you to pay your speeding fine but then, after three days, gave you the money back and rescinded the points, you'd just laugh at them for being utterly stupid. This is the eact situation we have with Jesus' crucifixion.

[jeremyp]

They had knowledge of Good because they had direct experience and evidence of God as you put it. They were in personal relationship and able even to maintain this until they chose to disregard God and put their trust in something else.

God had given them a warning about evil.

Can you give a Bible reference to the bit where God warned Adam and Eve about evil?

Spoiler: he didn't.

Even if God did warn Adam and Eve about evil (which he didn't), can you explain how Adam and Eve could be expected to recognise evil without knowledge of good and evil?

Why did God not warn Adam and Eve not to listen to the Serpent?

Also I think you are still under the impression that you can be sinless and Godless.

We are all sinless because there is no god.

[NicholasMarks]

So why should we believe this drivel? Not only have you failed to provide any hint of evidence or reasoning to support it, your track record of making totally false and nonsensical statements about science, suggest that you care very little about truth and accuracy.

When all truth is revealed you will find that I haven't told you anything which cannot be substantiated. It is all too advanced for you but we have got to tune in quickly because there are no brakes on the phenomenon we are all warned about.

Jesus Christ died to show us the mechanics of our Spirit. It responds to healthy universal stimulus...that is, the same energy that Almighty God is a living manifestation of. It is the raw material behind all atoms and all stars but we need special laws to make it wholesome and to assist us in our daily lives, and they are all contained within the accurate teaching of Yahshua/Jesus Christ.

If Almighty God, Yhwh/Jehovah, is made from this material and is invisible, that is an indicator that this energy is also invisible and in its purest form we can never see it...but the invisible things of God are seen by those things that are visible...a reference again to the fact that all stars and atoms are made from it...and modern science is bordering on this knowledge but I'm not sure that we have time to explore it fully...but by taking in the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ we don't need to.

 

[Stranger]

When all truth is revealed you will find that I haven't told you anything which cannot be substantiated. It is all too advanced for you...

You have made multiple statements about science that are simply wrong or meaningless. Being more "advanced" is not going to make wrong statements right, nor will it make sense of meaningless gibberish. If you had a more advanced understanding, you would be outlining the differences and starting with what is known, instead of spouting ignorant, inaccurate nonsense.

[torridon]

When all truth is revealed you will find that I haven't told you anything which cannot be substantiated. It is all too advanced for you but we have got to tune in quickly because there are no brakes on the phenomenon we are all warned about.....

So, no justification, no response to criticism then, just as predicted, just a bunch more incoherent waffle hoping to bury the fact that you never justify your bizarre assertions.  Your strategy here is one of pompous condescension, as if that is going to cut it with people that want answers.  Reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes, where people were goaded into affecting belief in absurd claims, not by well reasoned arguments, but by being told their unbelief was a symptom of stupidity. 

Nothing new under the Sun, Nick, we can all see straight through you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Can you give a Bible reference to the bit where God warned Adam and Eve about evil?

Spoiler: he didn't.

Even if God did warn Adam and Eve about evil (which he didn't), can you explain how Adam and Eve could be expected to recognise evil without knowledge of good and evil?

Why did God not warn Adam and Eve not to listen to the Serpent?
We are all sinless because there is no god.

I take the definition of sin from the anglican liturgy where we acknowledge sin against God and our fellow men. I'm sure then you would acknowledge sin against our fellow men.

God warned Adam and Eve, given he did not then force them it was obviously there decision to depart. For there not to be consequences one would de facto be arguing for some kind of absurd consequence free universe.

In terms of the snake, that is a metaphor IMV for turning away from Valuing God to valuing something lesser.

Since you have said there is no God, that is a positive assertion. Can you prove it?

[Sebastian Toe]

The problem with that is that the Holy Bible exists but your refusal to take in any of its content means you can't see the wonderful truth presented from within it. That's ok. You don't want to know what is in our future or what is occurring right now which will impact upon all our futures...You can't accept that having an indestructible spirit can be a good thing or a terrible thing depending upon the residence of that spirit which will either be here on planet Earth, in the flesh, in good health, happiness, and good order...or aboard a fiery lake of sulphur with no remission and a whole lot of time to dwell on what could have been...Again, a natural event, but one that Almighty God has warned us about and takes full responsibility for because it is an expression of his Mighty Power...and He has done His best to steer us away from it.

the con artist doesn't know what truth is.

the lies and deceit that are spun up by them are keeping us all confused

.everyone seems to be practicing the art of deception..

Hmmmmm

[Stranger]

God warned Adam and Eve, given he did not then force them it was obviously there decision to depart. For there not to be consequences one would de facto be arguing for some kind of absurd consequence free universe.

Once again ignoring what has actually been said and coming up with the absurd false dilemma between blighting the whole of humanity for the actions of two people who didn't know about good and evil, and a "consequence free universe".