The Meaning Of The Bible

[jeremyp]

God warned Adam and Eve,

Not against evil.

given he did not then force them it was obviously there decision to depart.

Have you even read the story? God threw them out. It wasn’t their decision at all.

For there not to be consequences one would de facto be arguing for some kind of absurd consequence free universe.

But the consequences you are talking about were made up by God.

In terms of the snake, that is a metaphor IMV for turning away from Valuing God to valuing something lesser.

irrelevant. In the story the Serpent is real. In the story God could have warned Adam and Eve about it.

Since you have said there is no God, that is a positive assertion. Can you prove it?
[/quote]
No. Can you prove me wrong?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Once again ignoring what has actually been said and coming up with the absurd false dilemma between blighting the whole of humanity for the actions of two people who didn't know about good and evil, and a "consequence free universe".

And again I am addressing what you are saying by calling it an appeal for a consequence free universe.

As I keep pointing out, sin and it's consequences should have cut off mankind from God. But in Christ Jesus God takes the effects on himself thus the way to God is open. Should you choose not to take that route it is not because of anything Adam did, it is because you choose not to take that route.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not against evil.

Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

[Spud]

Which makes the idea of a punishment all the more repugnant - we have the concept of diminished responsibility, and it's potentially open to abuse at times, but this sort of lack of awareness is what it was put into place for.  If someone genuinely doesn't understand what they're doing is wrong, how can we - or a perfectly moral deity - punish them for it?

So my original answer that they didn't understand the concept of good and evil until they actually disobeyed, was apparently wrong.
God said, "dying you shall die"; the repetition of the word made sure they understood that it was wrong. It's the principle that "A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" (Deut. 19:15)

[Stranger]

And again I am addressing what you are saying by calling it an appeal for a consequence free universe.

So you're just lying about what I said, then.

As I keep pointing out, sin and it's consequences should have cut off mankind from God.

Which is manifestly unjust for the actions of two people who didn't know good from evil.  And there's no 'should have' in your silly story, it did cut it off.

But in Christ Jesus God takes the effects on himself thus the way to God is open.

Back to the barking mad, barbaric, sadomasochistic nonsense - that doesn't work unless you believe this drivel and grovel for forgiveness for being a human being.

Should you choose not to take that route it is not because of anything Adam did, it is because you choose not to take that route.

There is no evidence any of this nonsense if true - so if it is, that's another injustice.

[NicholasMarks]

You have made multiple statements about science that are simply wrong or meaningless. Being more "advanced" is not going to make wrong statements right, nor will it make sense of meaningless gibberish. If you had a more advanced understanding, you would be outlining the differences and starting with what is known, instead of spouting ignorant, inaccurate nonsense.

Even if you don't agree with me on this point of reference, made here, which I made recently on a YouTube site, you will have to agree that it is pretty profound and offers a better solution than science who say that nothing, with an immense explosive force built everything, from a space no bigger than a flea's bottom...


Black-holes, to me, are an indicator of the mechanics that produced that galaxy...out of, guess what??...dark matter. It also is an indicator of the two dimensions that underpin the entire galaxy. If we take apart a black-hole, piece by piece, we would find the eyes of many tornadoes all swirled into one black-hole, and these tornado eyes are the remnant of the massive electric storms that once existed within that pre-galaxy cloud of dark matter...for more information...consult the Holy Bible

...and even if you don't like it...have you got a better solution.

Now I can take it through its many stages from the beginning to the end...which makes me just a little bit more on cue than the average guy, but the knowledge carries a heavy responsibility to the Owner and Creator of it all...and the thrust behind understanding this knowledge is the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ.


ps...I know your response before you respond.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you're just lying about what I said, then.

Which is manifestly unjust for the actions of two people who didn't know good from evil.  And there's no 'should have' in your silly story, it did cut it off.

Back to the barking mad, barbaric, sadomasochistic nonsense - that doesn't work unless you believe this drivel and grovel for forgiveness for being a human being.

There is no evidence any of this nonsense if true - so if it is, that's another injustice.

So what you are saying is that your half story of how God relates to mankind, the one without the restoration is the one you prefer. Is this because it fits in with your back up position that God is the evil villain? Is it the version you think adequately justifies ignoring Gods offer?

Once again I think you are confusing sinlessness with Godlessness. Are you frightened that if your sins are forgiven you will cease to be human?

[Stranger]

Even if you don't agree with me on this point of reference, made here, which I made recently on a YouTube site, you will have to agree that it is pretty profound and offers a better solution than science...

None of your nonsense is in the least bit profound. Your scientifically illiterate drivel isn't a solution to anything, let alone a better one than real science.

...who say that nothing, with an immense explosive force built everything, from a space no bigger than a flea's bottom...

More scientific illiteracy.

Black-holes, to me, are an indicator of the mechanics that produced that galaxy...out of, guess what??...dark matter. It also is an indicator of the two dimensions that underpin the entire galaxy. If we take apart a black-hole, piece by piece, we would find the eyes of many tornadoes all swirled into one black-hole, and these tornado eyes are the remnant of the massive electric storms that once existed within that pre-galaxy cloud of dark matter...for more information...consult the Holy Bible...

This is baseless evidence-free assertion that doesn't even make sense. Quite apart from anything else, you still don't seem to have grasped that 'dimension', in the way you use the word, is from tacky science fiction programs and has no meaning in real science.

And none of this gibberish is in the bible - that appears to be a barefaced lie.

...and even if you don't like it...have you got a better solution.

Yes - it's called real science.

Now I can take it through its many stages from the beginning to the end...which makes me just a little bit more on cue than the average guy...

You don't have even a hint of the first clue about science. You appear to have never been to a science class in your life. You know nothing about the subject.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Are you frightened that if your sins are forgiven you will cease to be human?

Why are you persisting with this nonsense? He’s made perfectly clear that he doesn’t believe any of the whole ghastly confection to be true – god, sin, divine forgiveness, you name it. All he’s doing is discussing the moral implications of the story, nothing more. It’s as if I was arguing an Aesop fable to be morally uplifting, you disagreed with me and then I stated asking you about your fears of actual hares and tortoises.

Whether the story suggests a morally good god or a morally bad god says nothing at all to whether you think this supposed god is also real.     

[Stranger]

So what you are saying is that your half story of how God relates to mankind, the one without the restoration is the one you prefer.

More dishonest misrepresentation. It's very telling that you seem unable to deal with what has actually been said, and have to address your own straw man version instead.

Is this because it fits in with your back up position that God is the evil villain?

I've explained this multiple times and am still waiting for you to address the actual points.

Is it the version you think adequately justifies ignoring Gods offer?

I see no offer.

Are you frightened that if your sins are forgiven you will cease to be human?

I'm not frightened at all - except perhaps about how much religion can undermine basic reasoning and make Christians try to defend the indefensible.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

More dishonest misrepresentation. It's very telling that you seem unable to deal with what has actually been said, and have to address your own straw man version instead.

I've explained this multiple times and am still waiting for you to address the actual points.

I see no offer.

I'm not frightened at all - except perhaps about how much religion can undermine basic reasoning and make Christians try to defend the indefensible.

you seem to be flipping between wanting a consequence free universe and God declaring you sinless so you can then tell him he isnt needed.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

you seem to be flipping between wanting a consequence free universe and God declaring you sinless so you can then tell him he isnt needed.

He’s suggested neither. What do you get from lying like this?

[Stranger]

you seem to be flipping between wanting a consequence free universe and God declaring you sinless so you can then tell him he isnt needed.

I have never once suggested either.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

He’s suggested neither. What do you get from lying like this?

He said earlier he wanted to be restored to Adam's sinless state. He thinks God is a monster for creating a universe where the consequences of Adam's sin. He seems to be rejecting Gods solution to Mans predicament. Therefore my Impression of what he is saying is fully justified.
.
As I have said Jesus has opened the way back to God.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

He said earlier he wanted to be restored to Adam's sinless state.

As he’s an atheist does that not seem a little unlikely to you? He said no such thing of course.

He thinks God is a monster for creating a universe where the consequences of Adam's sin.

No, he argues that the story you favour about a god implies a monstrous god.

He seems to be rejecting Gods solution to Mans predicament.

No, he’s rejecting both your interpretation of the story and your a priori assertion of god as a fact.

Therefore my Impression of what he is saying is fully justified.

No it isn’t. It's just more lying.

As I have said Jesus has opened the way back to God.

And as I have said, Jack never should have bought those magic beans.

Your turn. 

[Stranger]

He said earlier he wanted to be restored to Adam's sinless state.

No I did not. I said that if Jesus had really reversed the "work of Adam" as you suggested, then we (all of us) would be back in the sinless state. That is nothing like saying that I wanted to be declared sinless.

In fact, I haven't said anything about what I want at all. I'm commenting on your daft story.

He thinks God is a monster for creating a universe where the consequences of Adam's sin.

I have said that consequences did not fit the 'crime'. It is unjust to blight the whole of humanity because of the actions of two people, doubly so as they didn't know about good and evil.

That is nothing like saying I want a consequence-free universe.

He seems to be rejecting Gods solution to Mans predicament.

I'm rejecting the story as being absurd and its god character to be unfair and unjust, not to mention bloodthirsty and totally insane.

Therefore my Impression of what he is saying is fully justified.

False.

[ippy]

When all truth is revealed you will find that I haven't told you anything which cannot be substantiated. It is all too advanced for you but we have got to tune in quickly because there are no brakes on the phenomenon we are all warned about.

Jesus Christ died to show us the mechanics of our Spirit. It responds to healthy universal stimulus...that is, the same energy that Almighty God is a living manifestation of. It is the raw material behind all atoms and all stars but we need special laws to make it wholesome and to assist us in our daily lives, and they are all contained within the accurate teaching of Yahshua/Jesus Christ.

If Almighty God, Yhwh/Jehovah, is made from this material and is invisible, that is an indicator that this energy is also invisible and in its purest form we can never see it...but the invisible things of God are seen by those things that are visible...a reference again to the fact that all stars and atoms are made from it...and modern science is bordering on this knowledge but I'm not sure that we have time to explore it fully...but by taking in the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ we don't need to.

I'm sure most people do their best, overall, to live a decent moral/ethical life with the hope that they may have left this world a little better a place than it was before entering, the stories, in your manual, because that's all they are stories, make very little difference to this general behaviour any more than any other fictional work.

Most of us act the way we do out of respect for our fellow persons/citizens without having a single thought about gaining brownie points! Some others do these deeds hoping they'll be seen by yours truly and their deeds will add up to a cosy rewarding leg up into the sky nearer to this imaginary friend.

It could be said where atheists aren't looking for rewards when doing good deeds makes your average atheist a far more squeaky clean and moral person than your ordinary every day average religious believer Nick.

The main objection I have to religious belief, in this case believers, only one of many objections, is when the religious are always insistently teaching their religious beliefs to particularly very young and vulnerable children as though they are dealing with facts, instead of being honest and teaching them at the same time the exact difference between fact and belief.

So in all Nick you religious lot in my opinion haven't got a lot going for them and people like yourself do no favours for your fellow believers or belief with your ridiculous ideas that you think are scientific but are in fact rather sad for you and almost laughable.

ippy.

[Dicky Underpants]

He said earlier he wanted to be restored to Adam's sinless state. He thinks God is a monster for creating a universe where the consequences of Adam's sin. He seems to be rejecting Gods solution to Mans predicament. Therefore my Impression of what he is saying is fully justified.
.
As I have said Jesus has opened the way back to God.

That would be St Paul's solution.
Well, that would be if you accepted St Paul's bizarre scenario of what Jesus is supposed to have done for us.
"Jesus became a curse for us" ("anyone hanging on a tree is cursed")
"Jesus, our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed"
Are you really surprised that most non-believers find this utter nonsense?
The 2nd person of the Trinity sacrifices himself to appease the 1st person of the Trinity (and they're all bits of the same God, but each bit also God in him/itself)

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That would be St Paul's solution.
Well, that would be if you accepted St Paul's bizarre scenario of what Jesus is supposed to have done for us.
"Jesus became a curse for us" ("anyone hanging on a tree is cursed")
"Jesus, our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed"
Are you really surprised that most non-believers find this utter nonsense?
The 2nd person of the Trinity sacrifices himself to appease the 1st person of the Trinity (and they're all bits of the same God, but each bit also God in him/itself)

Non believers seem quite happy to have a version where mankind is innocent and God is a monster and they hold this for the obvious reason that everybody sees themselves as the hero, and the good guy and taking the blame is difficult.

So let's get into what you are saying. First of all there is the hint of the fallacy of modernity.
People in a time of warfare would recognise the logic of the younger generation making sacrifice. We don't fully understand this not because we are better than these people but because we haven't by and large experienced what they have.
Secondly, There is a misunderstanding of the unity within the trinity  God gave his only son for the world see previous point and yet again God is incarnated n Jesus Christ and takes the cost and consequence of sin on himself. That is why he incarnates to completely identify with the consequences of sin. As with all forgiveness it involves taking the costs and consequences for the transgressor.

Many non believers like considering the penalty aspect without thinking about the consequences. In modern times the criticism that the focus is on the treatment of the perpetrator rather than the effect of the victim. Enlightened justice recognises also the effect of the crime on the perpetrator themself.

Finally you of all people should know there are many interpretations of the atonement in christian theology.

[Stranger]

Non believers seem quite happy to have a version where mankind is innocent and God is a monster and they hold this for the obvious reason that everybody sees themselves as the hero, and the good guy and taking the blame is difficult.

You really are quite funny sometimes. You started out talking about "non believers" and then gave a reason for what say say that would only make sense if they believed. It can't be about not wanting to take the blame for people who think it's just a silly fairytale.

What's more, you've been given the actual reasons and all you've done is ignore them and construct an army of straw men for you to attack, as is your wont with most arguments.

[NicholasMarks]

I'm sure most people do their best, overall, to live a decent moral/ethical life with the hope that they may have left this world a little better a place than it was before entering, the stories, in your manual, because that's all they are stories, make very little difference to this general behaviour any more than any other fictional work.

Most of us act the way we do out of respect for our fellow persons/citizens without having a single thought about gaining brownie points! Some others do these deeds hoping they'll be seen by yours truly and their deeds will add up to a cosy rewarding leg up into the sky nearer to this imaginary friend.

It could be said where atheists aren't looking for rewards when doing good deeds makes your average atheist a far more squeaky clean and moral person than your ordinary every day average religious believer Nick.

The main objection I have to religious belief, in this case believers, only one of many objections, is when the religious are always insistently teaching their religious beliefs to particularly very young and vulnerable children as though they are dealing with facts, instead of being honest and teaching them at the same time the exact difference between fact and belief.

So in all Nick you religious lot in my opinion haven't got a lot going for them and people like yourself do no favours for your fellow believers or belief with your ridiculous ideas that you think are scientific but are in fact rather sad for you and almost laughable.

ippy.

Jesus Christ can save us from all dangers but in particular the dangers that are in our backyard right now. Disbelief is not a lasting option. We will either finish up cruising around the universe in a fiery lake of sulphur else living an honest peaceful life here, on planet Earth, in the flesh. You say that atheists are good people who live upstanding lives but then why have they made it their life's ambition to crush the only loving word that exists in this blasphemous world?? The word of Jesus brings calm into chaos and so by your stance you want to destroy that calm and that isn't very nice or very caring. The fact that it is all part of a universal science that cannot fail seems to incite atheists even more because they have put all their trust in the wrong science.

[NicholasMarks]

That would be St Paul's solution.
Well, that would be if you accepted St Paul's bizarre scenario of what Jesus is supposed to have done for us.
"Jesus became a curse for us" ("anyone hanging on a tree is cursed")
"Jesus, our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed"
Are you really surprised that most non-believers find this utter nonsense?
The 2nd person of the Trinity sacrifices himself to appease the 1st person of the Trinity (and they're all bits of the same God, but each bit also God in him/itself)

If you bothered to read the Holy Bible you will know, like Paul, as did Peter and John that Jesus, whilst earning the status of Almighty God and was made higher than the angels, Jesus himself, wouldn't put himself in competition with God. This suggests two beings, each bearing witness of the other, which is also what we are told. Jesus died to be resurrected and show us the mechanics behind resurrection and rebirth. He died to give us a new chance in life so that we can repair from the crumbling state of our genetic health, and he died so that we could talk to Almighty God in our prayers because before Jesus spoke to God on our behalf Almighty God wouldn't associate with sinners in any way, shape, or form...so we have a lot to be grateful for...especially as we all now know, if we care to examine the truth, that we each have an indestructible spirit which benefits our current existence, our future existence...and when we get the science right...our eternal existence.

You may frown on talking to God, but science, the catholics, the psychiatrists, and the Samaritans, have all found that it is good to talk. Now...I wonder how you will twist that against me.

[ippy]

Jesus Christ can save us from all dangers but in particular the dangers that are in our backyard right now. Disbelief is not a lasting option. We will either finish up cruising around the universe in a fiery lake of sulphur else living an honest peaceful life here, on planet Earth, in the flesh. You say that atheists are good people who live upstanding lives but then why have they made it their life's ambition to crush the only loving word that exists in this blasphemous world?? The word of Jesus brings calm into chaos and so by your stance you want to destroy that calm and that isn't very nice or very caring. The fact that it is all part of a universal science that cannot fail seems to incite atheists even more because they have put all their trust in the wrong science.

Nick, tell me, without the long drawn out sermon, how does anyone disbelieve in something that so unlikely to be there in the first place to enable them to disbelieve in well, to disbelieve in nothing.

Something like I disbelieve in the contents of an empty box, something else daft coming from your direction.

Nick, why do you think all communications with your postings end up being mostly senseless and daft?

ippy.

[NicholasMarks]

Nick, tell me, without the long drawn out sermon, how does anyone disbelieve in something that so unlikely to be there in the first place to enable them to disbelieve in well, to disbelieve in nothing.

Something like I disbelieve in the contents of an empty box, something else daft coming from your direction.

Nick, why do you think all communications with your postings end up being mostly senseless and daft?

ippy.

The reason for your last comment is Dawkinism...It is the standard attack upon anyone who supports the Holy Bible.

The answer to your second comment is that millions over the generations have found huge comfort from the teaching of Jesus Christ...especially in war zones and other stressful times...and that is proof positive that a science is at work.

With reference to your first question it is the simple fact that one man saw it worthy of extreme pain and suffering to show the more caring and compassionate amongst us that there is hope at the end of the tunnel...and that the reason the world is  in the state it is in is because people with no real caring for humanity pretend that they do have whilst they undermine and try to destroy it.

It might sound a bit harsh but you wanted me to be brief.



 

[Sebastian Toe]

you wanted me to be brief.

..beautiful full moon tonight Nick.
Had a good close look at it through my wee telescope.
No sign if anything amiss up there.

If you could just be brief and explain what it is that you are claiming to personally see that is a problem with the moon, I would be grateful.