Author Topic: Theism And Atheism  (Read 7903 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2020, 01:38:10 PM »
I have listened to the rest of your post. I see there is one thing to respond to: No, I do not think I over-estimate the forum.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2020, 01:55:45 PM »
TS,

Quote
The theory of evolution is a myth.

You might want to remember that you said that if ever you or a loved one need a life-saving medical treatment that exists only because of the practical application of the evolutionary theory you assert to be “a myth”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2020, 03:15:00 PM »


The theory of evolution is a myth.
Are you saying that the theory us a myth or that evolution is a myth?

I ask because I have seen that phrase used before but it turns out when asked to clarify, it was meant that evolution is a myth, not the theory.

Regards.
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ekim

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2020, 04:10:52 PM »
 

Similarly, the basic concept of God for me is something unique, eternal, everlasting ie. no beginning no end, not of this world ie supernatural, therefore incomprehensible. There are aspects or attributes that people can relate to but each aspect has multiple meanings or interpretations.

Yes, that is one of the problems with incomprehensible concepts, they are mind forged but pretty impossible to defend rationally.  Many organised religions attempt to instil such concepts into the minds of converts to the extent that it forms part of their 'self' and can motivate them to become self assertive. For some, intellectual debate is not the way.   I notice that you have a quote from Rumi.  Here is another 'God speaks to the ears of the heart of everyone but it is not every heart which hears Him; His voice is louder than the thunder and His light is clearer than the Sun - if only one could see and hear; in order to do that one must remove this solid wall, this barrier, this Self.'

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2020, 05:25:13 PM »
The theory of evolution is a myth.
Really? And your evidence for this being?

And what do you actually mean - the 'theory' usually ascribed to evolution is the theory of natural selection. Is that what you mean? Or are you actually suggesting that evolution (in other words the change in heritable characteristics in species over generations) is a myth. If the latter, good luck with demonstrating that evolution doesn't happen. I think you are onto a losing battle if you try that.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2020, 05:47:50 PM »
Really? Well, there ya' go. We do have things in common. Of course, you'll forgive me if my fragile old brain hasn't allowed me to familiarize myself with the regular posters here yet. Avatars are very helpful, but still. Are you an unbeliever or believer?
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Le Bon David

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2020, 06:41:21 PM »
TS,

You might want to remember that you said that if ever you or a loved one need a life-saving medical treatment that exists only because of the practical application of the evolutionary theory you assert to be “a myth”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine

Alchemy has played a significant role in the development of modern chemistry, medicine and psychology. The etymology of the modern word, chemistry, comes from the Arabic alkīmiyā (al 'the' + kīmiyā), which comes from the ancient Greek word chēmeía, meaning "black magic." Source

Cancer: The Forbidden Cures

« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 06:48:17 PM by Theoretical Skeptic »
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Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2020, 06:54:01 PM »
Are you saying that the theory us a myth or that evolution is a myth?

I ask because I have seen that phrase used before but it turns out when asked to clarify, it was meant that evolution is a myth, not the theory.

Regards.

Like most people I was introduced to the theory of evolution in public school. I didn't become a believer until many years later and to me, at the time, evolution seemed a more ridiculous concept than religion. It is interesting to me that all of my friends and family, except my mother, have always been atheists who don't believe in evolution to this day.

I don't see what the difference between the terms evolution and theory of evolution are. To me they are the same thing.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2020, 07:27:58 PM »
TS,

Quote
Alchemy has played a significant role in the development of modern chemistry, medicine and psychology. The etymology of the modern word, chemistry, comes from the Arabic alkīmiyā (al 'the' + kīmiyā), which comes from the ancient Greek word chēmeía, meaning "black magic." Source

Cancer: The Forbidden Cures

Alchemy is referred to as a protoscience – it stands in relation to chemistry as astrology stands to astronomy. In the 18h century though rigour and discipline were applied to various such folk beliefs about the world so the earlier, comparatively crude attempts at understanding and predicting the observed universe fell away. They were replaced with fields of knowledge that gave us penicillin and the space shuttle rather than burning sage leaves and thinking the stars were torches behind windows in the sky.   

Quote
Like most people I was introduced to the theory of evolution in public school. I didn't become a believer until many years later and to me, at the time, evolution seemed a more ridiculous concept than religion.

Why on earth would you (or anyone) think that?

Quote
It is interesting to me that all of my friends and family, except my mother, have always been atheists who don't believe in evolution to this day.

Really? Do they also not believe in the theories of gravity and of germs causing disease? After all, if you’re going to be an evidence-denier in one field of knowledge on what basis would you not also be an evidence-denier in any other? 

Quote
I don't see what the difference between the terms evolution and theory of evolution are. To me they are the same thing.

It’s simple enough: evolution is the observation of what happens; the ToE is the explanation of how it happens. If it helps, think of the analogy with gravity: gravity is the observation that (say) apples fall to the ground; the theory of gravity is the explanation of why they fall.     
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Stranger

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2020, 07:42:53 PM »
Like most people I was introduced to the theory of evolution in public school. I didn't become a believer until many years later and to me, at the time, evolution seemed a more ridiculous concept than religion. It is interesting to me that all of my friends and family, except my mother, have always been atheists who don't believe in evolution to this day.

I don't see what the difference between the terms evolution and theory of evolution are. To me they are the same thing.

So, you are dismissing something you know nothing about (as demonstrated by your last sentence) because of personal incredulity (a fallacy). Do you dismiss everything in science that's counter-intuitive (quantum mechanics and relativity maybe) that you don't understand, or is it just evolution?

FYI (just in case you want to correct your ignorance): evolution is an observed fact, the theory of evolution explains the fact and is backed up by an abundance of evidence.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2020, 07:50:52 PM »
Really? And your evidence for this being?

I have nothing against science, but it has never been an interest of mine. I rejected evolution when I was taught it throughout school. I don't normally answer questions with just links, but given it isn't an interest of mine I will just give you some links which I have considered as evidence against evolution over the years.

Watchtower: Evolution Versus Creation

Watchtower: Creation Book

David Berlinski: Rebellious Intellectual Defies Darwinism

David Berlinski: Uncommon Knowledge - The Deniable Darwin

And boy, y'all's gonna hate this. I don't agree with pretty much anything he has to say about the Bible and dinosaurs but I like this.  Kent Hovind: 100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid

And what do you actually mean - the 'theory' usually ascribed to evolution is the theory of natural selection. Is that what you mean? Or are you actually suggesting that evolution (in other words the change in heritable characteristics in species over generations) is a myth. If the latter, good luck with demonstrating that evolution doesn't happen. I think you are onto a losing battle if you try that.

Debating Evolution doesn't interest me. In the past on atheist forums I've eventually taken on the position that if you want to discuss evolution with me you have to teach it to me and I will ask questions of a skeptical nature. This with the stipulation that God isn't mentioned and you do it in your own words, not links or reading lists. I've discovered that even when atheist proposition to teach me evolution they only really want to convince me there isn't a God.

I don't mix the two. If anyone is interested in such an exchange start a new thread and PM me so I know the thread exists. 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2020, 07:55:07 PM »
Bluehill and NTTS see my response to Davey.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2020, 08:18:47 PM »
TS,

Quote
I have nothing against science, but it has never been an interest of mine. I rejected evolution when I was taught it throughout school. I don't normally answer questions with just links, but given it isn't an interest of mine I will just give you some links which I have considered as evidence against evolution over the years.

Watchtower: Evolution Versus Creation

Watchtower: Creation Book

David Berlinski: Rebellious Intellectual Defies Darwinism

David Berlinski: Uncommon Knowledge - The Deniable Darwin

And boy, y'all's gonna hate this. I don't agree with pretty much anything he has to say about the Bible and dinosaurs but I like this.  Kent Hovind: 100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid
Debating Evolution doesn't interest me. In the past on atheist forums I've eventually taken on the position that if you want to discuss evolution with me you have to teach it to me and I will ask questions of a skeptical nature. This with the stipulation that God isn't mentioned and you do it in your own words, not links or reading lists. I've discovered that even when atheist proposition to teach me evolution they only really want to convince me there isn't a God.

I don't mix the two. If anyone is interested in such an exchange start a new thread and PM me so I know the thread exists.

If by your own admission you’re ignorant of the science on what basis do you dismiss it? The links refer to people and to arguments that are just as ignorant – so you’re proposing that ignorance upon ignorance is a sound basis to dismiss something. Does this not trouble you at all?     

If you want to be taught about evolution (and, more particularly, about the ToE) there are people here who can help you with that. There are plenty of online resources available to you too. Why then dismiss it until you at least try to understand it? 
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2020, 08:18:57 PM »
I have nothing against science, but it has never been an interest of mine. I rejected evolution when I was taught it throughout school. I don't normally answer questions with just links, but given it isn't an interest of mine I will just give you some links which I have considered as evidence against evolution over the years.

Watchtower: Evolution Versus Creation

Watchtower: Creation Book

David Berlinski: Rebellious Intellectual Defies Darwinism

David Berlinski: Uncommon Knowledge - The Deniable Darwin

And boy, y'all's gonna hate this. I don't agree with pretty much anything he has to say about the Bible and dinosaurs but I like this.  Kent Hovind: 100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid
Sorry I asked for evidence - you know the stuff that is demonstrated through objective and repeatable observation. I didn't ask for unevidenced assertion which is what you have provided.

And the notion that you freely admit to having no interest in science suggests you are a stranger to the very notion of what evidence means.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2020, 08:21:30 PM »
Debating Evolution doesn't interest me. In the past on atheist forums I've eventually taken on the position that if you want to discuss evolution with me you have to teach it to me and I will ask questions of a skeptical nature. This with the stipulation that God isn't mentioned and you do it in your own words, not links or reading lists. I've discovered that even when atheist proposition to teach me evolution they only really want to convince me there isn't a God.

I don't mix the two. If anyone is interested in such an exchange start a new thread and PM me so I know the thread exists.
So you dismiss evolution on a message board then claim you have no interest in debating evolution - a case of double standards me thinks.

And you still haven't explained what you mean. Do you mean that:

1. The theory of evolution by natural selection is a myth or
2. That evolution is a myth

Those two aren't the same thing.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2020, 08:50:10 PM »
Sorry I asked for evidence - you know the stuff that is demonstrated through objective and repeatable observation. I didn't ask for unevidenced assertion which is what you have provided.

And the notion that you freely admit to having no interest in science suggests you are a stranger to the very notion of what evidence means.

No. It suggest that I have no interest in science.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2020, 08:51:52 PM »
So you dismiss evolution on a message board then claim you have no interest in debating evolution - a case of double standards me thinks.

And you still haven't explained what you mean. Do you mean that:

1. The theory of evolution by natural selection is a myth or
2. That evolution is a myth

Those two aren't the same thing.

You read my proposition. Teach me, a skeptic, with the conditions I mentioned or don't bother me on the subject. In a new thread. 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2020, 09:01:53 PM »
TS
If that first Watchtower book is a later version of "Did Mankind get here by Evolution or Creation?",  and you think this presents a reasoned scientific argument against evolution, then your standards are to say the least nebulous and about as scientific as Old Moore's Almanac.
I read that JW book in my teens and I thought some of arguments put forward showed no real understanding of the subject, and where the authors weren't deliberately quoting out of context, they showed an offence to logic verging on imbecility. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2020, 09:08:37 PM »
TS,

Quote
You read my proposition. Teach me, a skeptic, with the conditions I mentioned or don't bother me on the subject. In a new thread.

If you want to be taught something, that's fine. The question though concerned why you think it's fine to dismiss something as "a myth" when, by your own admission, you know nothing about it.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2020, 09:20:18 PM »
TS
If that first Watchtower book is a later version of "Did Mankind get here by Evolution or Creation?",  and you think this presents a reasoned scientific argument against evolution, then your standards are to say the least nebulous and about as scientific as Old Moore's Almanac.
I read that JW book in my teens and I thought some of arguments put forward showed no real understanding of the subject, and where the authors weren't deliberately quoting out of context, they showed an offence to logic verging on imbecility.

People on this forum have a real bad habit of dismissing everything they don't agree with simply as imbecility. You read my proposition on a discussion of evolution in a new thread. Hey, take me up on it.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2020, 09:21:30 PM »
TS,

If you want to be taught something, that's fine. The question though concerned why you think it's fine to dismiss something as "a myth" when, by your own admission, you know nothing about it.   

You should talk. Teach me or drop it. That's all I have to say.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2020, 09:40:06 PM »
TS,

Quote
You should talk. Teach me or drop it. That's all I have to say.

What would you like to know? The basic underpinnings of the ToE? Why Hovind et al get it wrong? Answers to FAQs about evolution/the ToE?

And again, why call something " a myth" when you know nothing abut it?
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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2020, 10:00:44 PM »
TS,

What would you like to know? The basic underpinnings of the ToE? Why Hovind et al get it wrong? Answers to FAQs about evolution/the ToE?

And again, why call something " a myth" when you know nothing abut it?

I know enough about it. Start a new thread, teach me, in your own words.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

SusanDoris

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2020, 07:03:02 AM »
You should talk. Teach me or drop it. That's all I have to say.
Oh, if only that was in fact all you have to say ...

Your arrogance appears to know no bounds.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Theism And Atheism
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2020, 08:29:49 AM »
You should talk. Teach me or drop it. That's all I have to say.
How is it possible to claim that something you say you don't understand is a myth.