Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 2518 times)

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Free Will
« on: November 01, 2020, 01:25:00 PM »
Deuteronomy 30:19 and Joshua 24:15 are  examples of freewill, which the Bible teaches harmoniously throughout. The perceived contradiction by the skeptic is due to an understandable confusion caused by the language of translation which, though not inaccurate can be misleading.

Acts 13:48 - To be ordained or appointed indicates a people being rightly disposed rather than preordained. The verse is talking about the prophecy of Isaiah 42:6-7 in which the opportunity of salvation would be extended to the Gentile.

Romans 8:29-30 is a reference to a class of people rather than specific individuals. God knew that there would be provision for those who would be declared righteous, but he didn't know who each of those people would be. The choice was theirs.

Romans 9:11-22 refers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah, and that there is nothing we can do which would give us a claim of deserving his mercy. It also references the account of Jacob and Esau, and how Jehovah, seeing them struggle even in the womb, gave Esau’s birthright to Jacob.

Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 all deals with the term "before the world began" and considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah began to prepare for man's salvation.

Jude 1:4 demonstrates how past experiences relayed in the Bible serve as an example to us. Jude writes of men who slipped into the congregation, and failing to pay heed to the examples of the past repeated similar offenses. He then gives three examples of this. Faithless Israelites; angels forsaking their original positions and Sodom and Gomorrah. The men Jude referred to were, in a sense, condemned by example through the past.

Though these scriptures may seem to indicate the lack of freewill, of a predestined nature, at least at first glance, they do not, in fact do so and there is no contradiction with any other scriptures in the Bible.

Does God determine who is going to heaven?

Greek mythology portrayed the three goddesses, the Fates, as those who spun the thread of life and determining the length of it, cut it. The Bible teaches no such thing. Though the language used in modern translations can be somewhat misleading, when looking at this difficult subject it is important that we are careful with language. For example, under the heading “God determines who is going to heaven” it is important to note that that statement is true. God does determine, or decide, who is going to heaven. It doesn’t necessarily imply that God predetermines this. There is no conflict with an accurate interpretation of scripture in the statement "God determines" whereas there would be with "God predetermines."

Acts 13:48 (KJV) uses the term “ordained.” To be ordained in a religious sense is to officially appoint someone to a position such as Priest or Rabbi. Keep in mind that to appoint someone doesn’t in itself determine the outcome of it. It doesn’t dictate their success or failure. To ordain in a legal sense means to establish something formerly as by law. Again, this doesn’t dictate success or failure. The law ordained isn’t necessarily obeyed or followed.

In an attempt to get a better sense of what is being implied, compare the verse with other translations. The NIV, YLT and ESV use the term appointed. To me this is a more appropriate term. It can mean previously agreed upon, and met at the appointed time, but it can also mean decorated in the sense of being well furnished or equipped.

With all of this in mind consider the NWT, which uses the most easily understood and accurate (supported) terminology. They use the term “rightly disposed.”

So the reader has the choice of leaning towards a fate predetermined like the goddesses of Greek mythology mentioned above, which isn’t supported by scripture, or leaning, instead, to the peoples of the nations hearing the statement given at Acts 13:47: “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth” they would see themselves as being given the opportunity to meet this appointment quoted from Isaiah 42:6-7. The Christian era had opened the possibility of salvation to the Gentiles; the nations.

The possibility of salvation. There would be no need for repentance of the wicked, nor the need to continue in righteousness if it were all decided for each of us beforehand. (2 Peter 3:17)

The point being that God at some point knew that the Gentiles would have this opportunity but didn’t foreordain the acceptance of those Gentiles of that opportunity, the choice was up to them.

When considering Romans 8:29-30 it is apparent that it isn’t a reference to specific individuals, but rather with a class of people. Jehovah has determined that there will be a group of people - Christians - who would be justified or declared righteous rather than that specific individuals were predestined for it. This is obvious, again as with Acts 13:48, when addressing the same group of possible candidates for this group, Peter warns of the possibility of failing. (2 Peter 1:10) If God had predestined these individuals for either failing or succeeding in being a part of this group there would be nothing they could do to change that. The possibility of failing wouldn’t be for those whom God had foreordained for that position, so that isn't the case.

The King James Version reads the latter portion of 2 Timothy 1:9 as “before the world began.” Various translations differ: YLT "Before the time of the ages" / NIV "before the beginning of time." / Douay-Rheims "before the times of the world." / ESV "before the ages began." What exactly does this term mean? Most people tend to think of it incorrectly as being before the creation of earth and man, meaning that all since then had been foreknown by God. That isn’t the case at all.

The Greek term katabole is used, and literally means a casting or laying down. For example, throwing down a seed. At Hebrews 11:11 the term is applied to Sarah's being given the gift to "conceive" at a late age.

At Luke 11:50-51 Jesus gives us insight on when this term, the founding of the world, began. From the blood of Abel. Abel, of course, was the offspring of Adam and Eve, so this time began when the first human couple conceived and began the race of mankind.

The word "world" is translated from the Greek kosmos, which has various meanings. 1. Humankind as a whole. 2. The structure of the human circumstances into which one is born and lives and 3. The masses of humankind apart from God's servants. the English word cosmos comes from the Greek kosmos and means adornment, and so the English word cosmetic. (1 Peter 3:3)

So, in a sense we are all living in the same period as Abel, though he towards it’s beginning and we towards it’s conclusion. The founding of the world, in this sense, then, would be the period of time after Adam’s sin but before Adam and Eve conceived. This is the period of time in which God began to allow for the possibility of salvation from the harmful effects of Adam’s sin. Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy of the Bible, is often overlooked as the beginning of all of this because it is often viewed as strictly a pronouncement upon Adam and Eve and the Serpent. When actually it is the first indication that there would be a division of, in a sense of the word, worlds. Those siding with Satan’s seed; his “offspring” so to speak and those of Jehovah’s seed from the woman, his earthly organization of faithful followers who were proved to be rightly disposed or ordained as a class of people from that moment until the conclusion of the world. Put simply, there would be those for Jehovah and those against.

The same would apply to Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as with 2 Timothy 1:9

Does God determine who is going to hell?

If you haven’t already read The Reality Of Hell post which addresses the pagan concept of hell adopted by the apostate church, you might want to read that at this point. The Bible doesn’t teach the hellfire doctrine.

At 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, where the KJV uses the term "a strong delusion" other translations use "working of error," (ASV) "a misleading influence, a working of error," (AMP) "fooled into believing a lie." (CEV) The question is, what does this mean?

In a basic sense it means God will allow them to believe as they will, which in this case, was a lie as it was with King Ahab at 1 Kings 22:1-38; 2 Chronicles 18. If you prefer the lie there is nothing that God can do to change that except hold you accountable to it. Note that other translations use the term “judged” rather than damned as the KJV uses. Also note that, where most translations, including the KJV, use the term “found pleasure” in unrighteousness literally means in Greek “having thought well.” They have given it thought and strive in an intellectual sense, to come to the conclusion they desire.

Is there nothing you can do about it?

Romans 9:11-22 - Verses such as these are often judged in a predestinarian perspective which is, at best, arbitrary. Fortunately God's perfection isn't so demanding so as to feel the need to measure up completely to the standards of excellence set by those who are not qualified to judge its merits. Put simply, as the Christian would put it, most often without having even the slightest knowledge of why, it amounts to God’s grace. In other words, God’s undeserved kindness. There is nothing we can do to make it so we "deserve" it.

In the case of Jacob and Esau, the firstborn, by tradition, was expected to have a claim on birthright, but Jehovah decided that it would be Jacob. Esau didn't appreciate it. Jehovah would see to Jacob‘s prospering. Is this a case of predestination? No. Even in the womb before they were born the twins struggled, and so then Jehovah revealed to Rebekah the way things would be. (Genesis 25:22-23; also see Psalm 139:13-16)
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 01:41:30 PM »
TS,

Quote
Is there nothing you can do about it?

Yes - don't be credulous enough to believe it. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Free Will
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2020, 02:12:36 PM »
TS,

Yes - don't be credulous enough to believe it.
In the first place I believed what you did and then I realised I had been culturally conditioned to.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Free Will
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2020, 02:15:40 PM »
Deuteronomy 30:19 and Joshua 24:15 are  examples of freewill...

Can you define what you mean by "free will"?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Free Will
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2020, 02:30:22 PM »
TS Opening Post

For the sighted, skimming is easy,; for me it is slightly more difficult, but after listening to all the words for quite a bit, I let good old Synthetic Dave read the beginning of lines as I cursor down line by linem, gaetting faster and faster and I'm afraid my only comments are:
Do you actually expect people to read every word of that?

*deep sigh I'll just read the rational replies ...
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Free Will
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2020, 03:24:44 PM »


*deep sigh I'll just read the rational replies ...
That'll take you a minute then you'll have the whole day to yourself.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
Re: Free Will
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2020, 03:56:10 PM »
In the first place I believed what you did and then I realised I had been culturally conditioned to.
Nonetheless, I suspect there's quite a large expanse of water between what you believe and what TS believes.
I think you understand what an instructive myth is. I'm not sure TS does
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Free Will
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2020, 04:39:03 PM »
Looking at the OP leads me to the conclusion that you are taking all this biblical stuff far too seriously and that you are putting far too much effort into demonstrating that, aside from being it being a cultural curiosity dating from antiquity that is of interest to those who like that sort of thing, it can just be dispensed with by those of us who don't see ancient anecdotal folk tales as having any real relevance to our lives.

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2020, 05:15:58 PM »
TS,

Yes - don't be credulous enough to believe it.

Excellent advise. "Credulity is not necessarily a belief in something that may be false: the subject of the belief may even be correct, but a credulous person will believe it without good evidence." Wikipedia

2 Thesselonians 2:1-2 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

Acts 17:10-12 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men.

“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Free Will
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2020, 05:29:20 PM »
Deuteronomy 30:19 and Joshua 24:15 are  examples of freewill, which the Bible teaches harmoniously throughout. The perceived contradiction by the skeptic is due to an understandable confusion caused by the language of translation which, though not inaccurate can be misleading.

Acts 13:48 - To be ordained or appointed indicates a people being rightly disposed rather than preordained. The verse is talking about the prophecy of Isaiah 42:6-7 in which the opportunity of salvation would be extended to the Gentile.

Romans 8:29-30 is a reference to a class of people rather than specific individuals. God knew that there would be provision for those who would be declared righteous, but he didn't know who each of those people would be. The choice was theirs.

Romans 9:11-22 refers to the undeserved kindness of Jehovah, and that there is nothing we can do which would give us a claim of deserving his mercy. It also references the account of Jacob and Esau, and how Jehovah, seeing them struggle even in the womb, gave Esau’s birthright to Jacob.

Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 all deals with the term "before the world began" and considers the time of humankind after the sin of Adam, and their offspring. The point being that immediately after Adam's sin Jehovah began to prepare for man's salvation.

Jude 1:4 demonstrates how past experiences relayed in the Bible serve as an example to us. Jude writes of men who slipped into the congregation, and failing to pay heed to the examples of the past repeated similar offenses. He then gives three examples of this. Faithless Israelites; angels forsaking their original positions and Sodom and Gomorrah. The men Jude referred to were, in a sense, condemned by example through the past.

Though these scriptures may seem to indicate the lack of freewill, of a predestined nature, at least at first glance, they do not, in fact do so and there is no contradiction with any other scriptures in the Bible.

Does God determine who is going to heaven?

Greek mythology portrayed the three goddesses, the Fates, as those who spun the thread of life and determining the length of it, cut it. The Bible teaches no such thing. Though the language used in modern translations can be somewhat misleading, when looking at this difficult subject it is important that we are careful with language. For example, under the heading “God determines who is going to heaven” it is important to note that that statement is true. God does determine, or decide, who is going to heaven. It doesn’t necessarily imply that God predetermines this. There is no conflict with an accurate interpretation of scripture in the statement "God determines" whereas there would be with "God predetermines."

Acts 13:48 (KJV) uses the term “ordained.” To be ordained in a religious sense is to officially appoint someone to a position such as Priest or Rabbi. Keep in mind that to appoint someone doesn’t in itself determine the outcome of it. It doesn’t dictate their success or failure. To ordain in a legal sense means to establish something formerly as by law. Again, this doesn’t dictate success or failure. The law ordained isn’t necessarily obeyed or followed.

In an attempt to get a better sense of what is being implied, compare the verse with other translations. The NIV, YLT and ESV use the term appointed. To me this is a more appropriate term. It can mean previously agreed upon, and met at the appointed time, but it can also mean decorated in the sense of being well furnished or equipped.

With all of this in mind consider the NWT, which uses the most easily understood and accurate (supported) terminology. They use the term “rightly disposed.”

So the reader has the choice of leaning towards a fate predetermined like the goddesses of Greek mythology mentioned above, which isn’t supported by scripture, or leaning, instead, to the peoples of the nations hearing the statement given at Acts 13:47: “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth” they would see themselves as being given the opportunity to meet this appointment quoted from Isaiah 42:6-7. The Christian era had opened the possibility of salvation to the Gentiles; the nations.

The possibility of salvation. There would be no need for repentance of the wicked, nor the need to continue in righteousness if it were all decided for each of us beforehand. (2 Peter 3:17)

The point being that God at some point knew that the Gentiles would have this opportunity but didn’t foreordain the acceptance of those Gentiles of that opportunity, the choice was up to them.

When considering Romans 8:29-30 it is apparent that it isn’t a reference to specific individuals, but rather with a class of people. Jehovah has determined that there will be a group of people - Christians - who would be justified or declared righteous rather than that specific individuals were predestined for it. This is obvious, again as with Acts 13:48, when addressing the same group of possible candidates for this group, Peter warns of the possibility of failing. (2 Peter 1:10) If God had predestined these individuals for either failing or succeeding in being a part of this group there would be nothing they could do to change that. The possibility of failing wouldn’t be for those whom God had foreordained for that position, so that isn't the case.

The King James Version reads the latter portion of 2 Timothy 1:9 as “before the world began.” Various translations differ: YLT "Before the time of the ages" / NIV "before the beginning of time." / Douay-Rheims "before the times of the world." / ESV "before the ages began." What exactly does this term mean? Most people tend to think of it incorrectly as being before the creation of earth and man, meaning that all since then had been foreknown by God. That isn’t the case at all.

The Greek term katabole is used, and literally means a casting or laying down. For example, throwing down a seed. At Hebrews 11:11 the term is applied to Sarah's being given the gift to "conceive" at a late age.

At Luke 11:50-51 Jesus gives us insight on when this term, the founding of the world, began. From the blood of Abel. Abel, of course, was the offspring of Adam and Eve, so this time began when the first human couple conceived and began the race of mankind.

The word "world" is translated from the Greek kosmos, which has various meanings. 1. Humankind as a whole. 2. The structure of the human circumstances into which one is born and lives and 3. The masses of humankind apart from God's servants. the English word cosmos comes from the Greek kosmos and means adornment, and so the English word cosmetic. (1 Peter 3:3)

So, in a sense we are all living in the same period as Abel, though he towards it’s beginning and we towards it’s conclusion. The founding of the world, in this sense, then, would be the period of time after Adam’s sin but before Adam and Eve conceived. This is the period of time in which God began to allow for the possibility of salvation from the harmful effects of Adam’s sin. Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy of the Bible, is often overlooked as the beginning of all of this because it is often viewed as strictly a pronouncement upon Adam and Eve and the Serpent. When actually it is the first indication that there would be a division of, in a sense of the word, worlds. Those siding with Satan’s seed; his “offspring” so to speak and those of Jehovah’s seed from the woman, his earthly organization of faithful followers who were proved to be rightly disposed or ordained as a class of people from that moment until the conclusion of the world. Put simply, there would be those for Jehovah and those against.

The same would apply to Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as with 2 Timothy 1:9

Does God determine who is going to hell?

If you haven’t already read The Reality Of Hell post which addresses the pagan concept of hell adopted by the apostate church, you might want to read that at this point. The Bible doesn’t teach the hellfire doctrine.

At 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, where the KJV uses the term "a strong delusion" other translations use "working of error," (ASV) "a misleading influence, a working of error," (AMP) "fooled into believing a lie." (CEV) The question is, what does this mean?

In a basic sense it means God will allow them to believe as they will, which in this case, was a lie as it was with King Ahab at 1 Kings 22:1-38; 2 Chronicles 18. If you prefer the lie there is nothing that God can do to change that except hold you accountable to it. Note that other translations use the term “judged” rather than damned as the KJV uses. Also note that, where most translations, including the KJV, use the term “found pleasure” in unrighteousness literally means in Greek “having thought well.” They have given it thought and strive in an intellectual sense, to come to the conclusion they desire.

Is there nothing you can do about it?

Romans 9:11-22 - Verses such as these are often judged in a predestinarian perspective which is, at best, arbitrary. Fortunately God's perfection isn't so demanding so as to feel the need to measure up completely to the standards of excellence set by those who are not qualified to judge its merits. Put simply, as the Christian would put it, most often without having even the slightest knowledge of why, it amounts to God’s grace. In other words, God’s undeserved kindness. There is nothing we can do to make it so we "deserve" it.

In the case of Jacob and Esau, the firstborn, by tradition, was expected to have a claim on birthright, but Jehovah decided that it would be Jacob. Esau didn't appreciate it. Jehovah would see to Jacob‘s prospering. Is this a case of predestination? No. Even in the womb before they were born the twins struggled, and so then Jehovah revealed to Rebekah the way things would be. (Genesis 25:22-23; also see Psalm 139:13-16)
TS - in what way is quoting a selection of verses from an ancient book written by people a couple of thousand years or more ago supposed to prove anything. All it does it tell us what is written in that book - and note other books are available - as is real objective and verifiable evidence.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Free Will
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2020, 05:34:41 PM »
Does God determine who is going to heaven?
First please demonstrate from first principles (no circular arguments) that:

A) God exists and
B) Heaven exists

Does God determine who is going to hell?
First please demonstrate from first principles (no circular arguments) that:

A) God exists and
B) Hell exists

Oh we've already asked A)
Is there nothing you can do about it?
Given that you haven't demonstrated that:

A) God exists and
B) Heaven exists
C) Hell exists

I think the notion that we cannot do anything about it is moot, don't you think.

Come back and try again when you've got off the starting blocks by, at the very least, proving god exists.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
Re: Free Will
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2020, 05:42:01 PM »
Excellent advise. "Credulity is not necessarily a belief in something that may be false: the subject of the belief may even be correct, but a credulous person will believe it without good evidence." Wikipedia

2 Thesselonians 2:1-2 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

Acts 17:10-12 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men.
But your criterion of truth still seems to be the Bible and the God you believe to be revealed therein. Reason and logic (applied to one's personal experience as well) should be sufficient. Though one should be wary of subjective experience, especially in a religious context. The texts you cited still imply there is true religious experience. There is in fact simply experience.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

NicholasMarks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6285
Re: Free Will
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2020, 06:37:18 PM »


Everyone has to be governed by rules and regulations...but what if those rules and regulations are geared by the mechanics of the space-age. A time when we know exactly how the human body works...a time when we have full access to outer space...a time when we are able to mix with other populations, not of this world.

The meek will inherit this world and so those who want to be part of that scenario should start now. Many already have prejudices against ethnic groups, against people a little different to them...against people who are disfigured in some way...well...the many people from outer space seem, according to reports, to be a little different to us, as well...so a strong code of loving our neighbour might be useful...no free will allowed there. And what about the authority who will lead us into that new space-age...will we be allowed to undermine what they think is good, wholesome and righteous, when they have the science that will keep us healthy. Our history states that we have mindlessly followed the dictates of tyrants and dictators so wouldn't it be wise to follow the laws of good health and good order to ensure that those aggressive and violent people never resurface again. This would give the whole world a chance to pursue space-age recreation, instead of tied to the mill, and will give us honest free-will which is doing exactly what the Holy Bible guides us to do.

No one will want to give up the advantages they have carved out for themselves...but the catastrophes Almighty God foresaw coming on the Earth and warned us about means we will not be given any free-will on the matter...other than follow Jesus Christ, accurately, and be part of it all...else be evicted into eternal disgrace.

 

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Free Will
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2020, 07:36:48 PM »
TS,

Quote
Excellent advise. "Credulity is not necessarily a belief in something that may be false: the subject of the belief may even be correct, but a credulous person will believe it without good evidence." Wikipedia

Yep.

Quote
2 Thesselonians 2:1-2 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

Acts 17:10-12 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Beroea, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men.


So a book is true because it says it’s true?

Start again – whence comes your confidence that because something is written in a book it must be so? You don’t (presumably) think that schoolchildren can fly around on broomsticks, yet I can give you quotes from the Harry Potter books that say they do. So?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2020, 07:58:21 PM »
Nonetheless, I suspect there's quite a large expanse of water between what you believe and what TS believes.
I think you understand what an instructive myth is. I'm not sure TS does

Maybe you should see some of my posts on exactly that on the subject of Shintoism's Nihongi and Kojiki. Somewhere here. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 09:11:38 PM by Theoretical Skeptic »
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2020, 08:01:52 PM »
Excellent advise. "Credulity is not necessarily a belief in something that may be false: the subject of the belief may even be correct, but a credulous person will believe it without good evidence." Wikipedia
Which is exactly the case for belief in god and various further subsidiary credulous beliefs, for example that the bible is the word of god which is doubly credulous in that there is neither evidence for the existence of god and therefore cannot be credible evidence that a particular book is the word of an entity for which there is no credible evidence for its existence.

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2020, 08:05:19 PM »
Can you define what you mean by "free will"?

The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. It is limited. Only the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has absolute unlimited freedom.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2020, 08:12:02 PM »
Looking at the OP leads me to the conclusion that you are taking all this biblical stuff far too seriously and that you are putting far too much effort into demonstrating that, aside from being it being a cultural curiosity dating from antiquity that is of interest to those who like that sort of thing, it can just be dispensed with by those of us who don't see ancient anecdotal folk tales as having any real relevance to our lives.

That seems an odd position to take on a Christian Topics forum, but I understand. I'm not trying to push this stuff down anyone's throat.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2020, 08:27:08 PM »
TS,

Quote
The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. It is limited. Only the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has absolute unlimited freedom.

Oh dear. Dig deeper – do you think that our experience of will is “free” in an absolute sense, or rather that it’s just the way a deterministic universe feels? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2020, 08:33:56 PM »
TS Opening Post

For the sighted, skimming is easy,; for me it is slightly more difficult, but after listening to all the words for quite a bit, I let good old Synthetic Dave read the beginning of lines as I cursor down line by linem, gaetting faster and faster and I'm afraid my only comments are:
Do you actually expect people to read every word of that?

*deep sigh I'll just read the rational replies ...

My mother has almost completely lost her sight and since it's hereditary I will probably start to lose mine before long. I can give you a brief synopsis of my longer posts, if you are interested. You seem to be less and less interested in what I have to say but for you as well as the sighted who can easily skim I will provide the synopsis. 
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2020, 08:40:20 PM »
TS - in what way is quoting a selection of verses from an ancient book written by people a couple of thousand years or more ago supposed to prove anything. All it does it tell us what is written in that book - and note other books are available - as is real objective and verifiable evidence.

On a Christian Topic forum I posted my interpretation of what the Christian Bible says on the topic of Free Will. If I'm trying to "prove" anything that would be it. Subject to debate.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2020, 08:45:56 PM »
Come back and try again when you've got off the starting blocks by, at the very least, proving god exists.

Why on earth would I want to do that? That would be counter productive don't you think? Perhaps you need to more fully appreciate what faith is and it's purpose.   
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2020, 08:47:51 PM »
TS,

Oh dear. Dig deeper – do you think that our experience of will is “free” in an absolute sense, or rather that it’s just the way a deterministic universe feels?

The way a deterministic universe feels? Did you read my post? Did you even read the short clip you quoted?
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Free Will
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2020, 08:57:16 PM »
TS,

Quote
The way a deterministic universe feels?

Yes.

Quote
Did you read my post? Did you even read the short clip you quoted?

Yes - it's gibberish. Do you think will is "free" in the colloquial sense, or merely that the experience of "free" will is illusory?     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Theoretical Skeptic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Bible Believer
    • Atheist Annotated Bible
Re: Free Will
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2020, 09:01:34 PM »
TS,

Yes.

Yes - it's gibberish. Do you think will is "free" in the colloquial sense, or merely that the experience of "free" will is illusory?   

I think it's just as I described it.
“Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune