Author Topic: Genealogy Of Jesus  (Read 20924 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #150 on: December 05, 2020, 05:13:26 PM »
If writing a family tree of a woman was unprecedented he might not have wanted to mention her.
In which case he wouldn't have described the relationship between Joseph and Heli in exactly the same manner as he does the relationship between Heli and Matthat etc.

Just give up Spud - there is no evidence whatsoever that Luke is describing Mary's lineage - it makes no sense at all. You'll just have to accept that Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogies and that that cannot both be correct, although they can both be wrong.

Gordon

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #151 on: December 05, 2020, 05:18:47 PM »
Moreover, does it really matter all that much anyway?
 

jeremyp

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #152 on: December 05, 2020, 09:50:20 PM »
If writing a family tree of a woman was unprecedented he might not have wanted to mention her.
Was it unprecedented? Have you got any evidence of that?
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jeremyp

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #153 on: December 05, 2020, 09:50:50 PM »
Moreover, does it really matter all that much anyway?
 
It does to Spud.
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Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #154 on: December 06, 2020, 05:38:15 PM »
Your "as was supposed" argument is nonsense. Nobody would have supposed that Jesus was the son of his own grandfather, so of course it only applies to Joseph.
What I meant was, "as was supposed" applies to Joseph but not to Heli in the sense that Jesus was not Joseph's son but he was the son of Heli as a biological grandson. He was not biologically related to Joseph but he was to Heli.

The other way of looking at it that I've come across is that because Joseph doesn't have the article, he is to be included in the parenthesis. This means that Joseph is not part of the genealogy.

But I think that the missing article may be simply because 'son' is indefinite, and Joseph is in apposition to son, and also that Joseph has been introduced and so it was not compulsory to include the article. Heli however is a new character and thus needs the article (see the above link on Strongs 3588).

However, what we can be sure of is that one of the genealogies is that of Mary, because throughout the Bible the Messiah is stated to be the seed of David. So the other must be Joseph's, which would work with either.

It does to Spud.
What matters is that there are possible solutions to the problem, even if we don't know which it is.

jeremyp

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #155 on: December 06, 2020, 07:37:02 PM »

What matters is that there are possible solutions to the problem, even if we don't know which it is.

There isn't a problem. One of either Luke or Matthew, or more likely, both made a mistake. In fact it's likely they both got it wrong considering there is no chance that either of them would have know Joseph's genealogy.
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Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #156 on: December 09, 2020, 03:58:10 PM »
A couple of interesting excerpts:

From Clarke's commentary:

Being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph - This same phrase is used by Herodotus to signify one who was only reputed to be the son of a particular person: τουτου παις νομιζεται he was Supposed to be this man's son. Much learned labor has been used to reconcile this genealogy with that in St. Matthew, Matthew 1:1-17, and there are several ways of doing it; the following, which appears to me to be the best, is also the most simple and easy. For a more elaborate discussion of the subject, the reader is referred to the additional observations at the end of the chapter. Matthew, in descending from Abraham to Joseph, the spouse of the blessed virgin, speaks of Sons properly such, by way of natural generation: Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, etc. But Luke, in ascending from the Savior of the world to God himself, speaks of sons either properly or improperly such: on this account he uses an indeterminate mode of expression, which may be applied to sons either putatively or really such. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being, as was Supposed the son of Joseph - of Heli - of Matthat, etc. This receives considerable support from Raphelius's method of reading the original ων (ὡς ενομιζετο υἱος Ιωσηφ) του Ἡλι, being (when reputed the son of Joseph) the son of Heli, etc. That St. Luke does not always speak of sons properly such, is evident from the first and last person which he names: Jesus Christ was only the supposed son of Joseph, because Joseph was the husband of his mother Mary: and Adam, who is said to be the son of God, was such only by creation. After this observation it is next necessary to consider, that, in the genealogy described by St. Luke, there are two sons improperly such: i.e. two sons-in-law, instead of two sons. As the Hebrews never permitted women to enter into their genealogical tables, whenever a family happened to end with a daughter, instead of naming her in the genealogy, they inserted her husband, as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law. This import, bishop Pearce has fully shown, νομιζεσθαι bears, in a variety of places - Jesus was considered according to law, or allowed custom, to be the son of Joseph, as he was of Heli. The two sons-in-law who are to be noticed in this genealogy are Joseph the son-in-law of Heli, whose own father was Jacob, Matthew 1:16; and Salathiel, the son-in-law of Neri, whose own father was Jechonias: 1 Chronicles 3:17, and Matthew 1:12. This remark alone is sufficient to remove every difficulty.Thus it appears that Joseph, son of Jacob, according to St. Matthew, was son-in-law of Heli, according to St. Luke. And Salathiel, son of Jechonias, according to the former, was son-in-law of Neri, according to the latter. Mary therefore appears to have been the daughter of Heli; so called by abbreviation for Heliachim, which is the same in Hebrew with Joachim. Joseph, son of Jacob, and Mary; daughter of Heli, were of the same family: both came from Zerubbabel; Joseph from Abiud, his eldest son, Matthew 1:13, and Mary by Rhesa, the youngest. See Luke 3:27. Salathiel and Zorobabel, from whom St. Matthew and St. Luke cause Christ to proceed, were themselves descended from Solomon in a direct line: and though St. Luke says that Salathiel was son of Neri, who was descended from Nathan, Solomon's eldest brother, 1 Chronicles 3:5, this is only to be understood of his having espoused NathanNeri's daughter, and that Neri dying, probably, without male issues the two branches of the family of David, that of Nathan and that of Solomon, were both united in the person of Zerubbabel, by the marriage of Salathiel, chief of the regal family of Solomon, with the daughter of Neri, chief and heretrix of the family of Nathan. Thus it appears that Jesus, son of Mary, reunited in himself all the blood, privileges, and rights of the whole family of David; in consequence of which he is emphatically called, The son of David.

(My correction and bold)

From Biblical Illustrator:

The following possible explanation of the divergencies between the two genealogies of our Lord is deserving of consideration. The Jews, like other nations, gave more than one name to each individual. The life of a Jew was essentially twofold: he was a member of a civil state, and he was at the same time a member of a theocracy; his life was both political and religious. This distinction seems to have been preserved in the giving of names. Traces of the double name are found throughout the course of Scripture history. It is highly probable that the sacred name imposed at birth would be entered in a different list from the common name by which a man was known in his civil relationships. The conclusion to which we are brought is that we have before us two such registers, one drawn from public, and the other from private sources; or, as is conjectured above, one from a civil genealogy, the other from writings laid up in the Temple. In support of this view, we may note that in the genealogy in Luke — the evangelist whose opening chapters show a close familiarity with the interior of the Temple, and what took place there — the names appear to have a sacred character. Even an English reader may remark at a glance the different aspect of the two lists. That in Luke contains, with striking frequency, the familiar names of distinguished patriarchs, prophets, and priests, and thus confirms the impression that his genealogy, rather than that of a Matthew, is of a purely religious character. This hypothesis receives a remarkable confirmation by a comparison of the dates of the two lists with the dates of the first building, the destruction, and the second building of the Temple. What, then, is the relation between the two genealogies before Solomon's time, when there was no Temple? and during the lives of Salathiel and Zorobabel, who flourished at the time of the Babylonish captivity, when again, for seventy years, there was no Temple? It is precisely at these periods that only one list exists. The divergence in Luke's genealogy from that of Matthew is exactly coincident with the periods during which the Temple was standing. What explanation of this striking fact can be more natural than that at the point where the two genealogies unite there was but one list to refer to, and that the absence of entries in the sacred register required it to be supplemented by a reference to the state chronicles?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2020, 06:11:58 PM »
A couple of interesting excerpts:

From Clarke's commentary:
Who on earth is Clarke?

And is he or she a genuine and objective researcher or just another christian apologist who starts from the premise that both Matthew and Luke must be correct (because he or she thinks that the gospels cannot be wrong as a matter of faith) and then looks for evidence and, frankly, makes up stuff to try to justify his or her prejudged view.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2020, 06:31:28 PM »
Who on earth is Clarke?

And is he or she a genuine and objective researcher or just another christian apologist who starts from the premise that both Matthew and Luke must be correct (because he or she thinks that the gospels cannot be wrong as a matter of faith) and then looks for evidence and, frankly, makes up stuff to try to justify his or her prejudged view.
Actually no point as his or her agenda is obvious from:

Much learned labor has been used to reconcile this genealogy with that in St. Matthew, Matthew 1:1-17, and there are several ways of doing it; the following, which appears to me to be the best, is also the most simple and easy.

He or she is clear not event contemplating the obvious explanation - that they cannot be reconciled as on, or other, or both are wrong.

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #159 on: December 19, 2020, 06:34:19 PM »
Who on earth is Clarke?

And is he or she a genuine and objective researcher or just another christian apologist who starts from the premise that both Matthew and Luke must be correct (because he or she thinks that the gospels cannot be wrong as a matter of faith) and then looks for evidence and, frankly, makes up stuff to try to justify his or her prejudged view.
If there is precedent in the OT for a person having a legal and a biological father, then why not look for evidence to justify his view? Also Matthew and Luke set their narratives in a historical context, which when compared with Josephus has a high degree of accuracy. So he probably wasn't making the genealogy up.

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #160 on: December 19, 2020, 06:46:17 PM »
An interesting view in "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" is that Mary was the only child of Jacob, so that "probably Joseph was the son of Heli and the heir to Jacob."
Both Clement and Victorinus mention Matthew's genealogy and seem to say that it was Mary's:
"And in the Gospel according to Matthew, the genealogy which begins with Abraham is continued down to Mary the mother of the Lord." (Clement)
"Matthew strives to declare to us the genealogy of Mary, from whom Christ took flesh" (Victorinus)

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #161 on: February 19, 2021, 10:50:53 AM »
Actually no point as his or her agenda is obvious from:

Much learned labor has been used to reconcile this genealogy with that in St. Matthew, Matthew 1:1-17, and there are several ways of doing it; the following, which appears to me to be the best, is also the most simple and easy.

He or she is clear not event contemplating the obvious explanation - that they cannot be reconciled as on, or other, or both are wrong.
If one, or other, or both had been wrong, there would most likely have been claims to that effect from opponents of the early church. Also, both Paul and the gospel writers record that it was widely accepted Jesus was a descendant of David, which increases the likelihood of the genealogies' authenticity. And calls for study to find possible ways to harmonize the two.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #162 on: February 19, 2021, 11:16:29 AM »
Also, both Paul and the gospel writers record that it was widely accepted Jesus was a descendant of David, which increases the likelihood of the genealogies' authenticity.
No it doesn't - all sorts of things are (or were) widely accepted which we know to be wrong.

So as examples - it was widely accepted (amongst the same people you are talking about) that the sun went around the earth - that isn't true. It was widely accepted (amongst the same people you are talking about) that Adam was the first man - that isn't true.

Just because something is widely accepted tells us nothing about its authenticity - what bolsters the likelihood of authenticity is evidence not acceptance (unless the latter is based on evidence which is not the case here).

Roses

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #163 on: February 19, 2021, 11:29:01 AM »
It was thought the earth was flat in those far off days.
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Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #164 on: February 19, 2021, 06:08:25 PM »
No it doesn't - all sorts of things are (or were) widely accepted which we know to be wrong.

So as examples - it was widely accepted (amongst the same people you are talking about) that the sun went around the earth - that isn't true. It was widely accepted (amongst the same people you are talking about) that Adam was the first man - that isn't true.

Just because something is widely accepted tells us nothing about its authenticity - what bolsters the likelihood of authenticity is evidence not acceptance (unless the latter is based on evidence which is not the case here).

We don't know that Jesus wasn't descended from king David. We can still say the lack of dispute over Jesus' relation to David is consistent with the genealogies and therefore increases the likelihood of them being authentic.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #165 on: February 20, 2021, 10:46:59 AM »
We don't know that Jesus wasn't descended from king David.
You are making a positive claim - in other words that Jesus was descended from David - the onus is on you or anyone else making that positive claim to provide the evidence to back it up.

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #166 on: February 21, 2021, 06:23:54 PM »
You are making a positive claim - in other words that Jesus was descended from David - the onus is on you or anyone else making that positive claim to provide the evidence to back it up.
You implied that just as we know  ancient beliefs in geocentricity were wrong, so we know the general NT record of Jesus' Davidic ancestry was wrong. We don't know that, so you can't compare geocentricity. If that record had been disputed, or if the Pharisees in the gospels had disputed it, it would make it more likely the genealogies were wrong than if the claim hadn't been disputed. That's my point.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #167 on: February 21, 2021, 06:52:08 PM »
You implied that just as we know  ancient beliefs in geocentricity were wrong, so we know the general NT record of Jesus' Davidic ancestry was wrong. We don't know that, so you can't compare geocentricity. If that record had been disputed, or if the Pharisees in the gospels had disputed it, it would make it more likely the genealogies were wrong than if the claim hadn't been disputed. That's my point.
I'm sorry Spud your points are poor.

Sure we don't know that Jesus wasn't descended from David, but that provides no evidence to support a claim that he was. And the fact that people in the gospels of the Bible (texts written by believers in the the notion that Jesus was descended from David) is hardly compelling evidence is it Spud. People who believe in a particular claim with texts which support their claim. We have no knowledge as to whether others around at the time disputed the claim. Although the fact that Jesus wasn't accepted as the messiah by the majority people living in the time and in the place where he lived and preached is very telling. Did these people accept that Jesus was descended from David? Well we don't know as there aren't records, but they certainly didn't accept he was the messiah.

And I may be wrong, but are there any independent corroborative texts (i.e. not biblical, or at least not NT biblical) that provide support to the claim - I'm not sure there are.

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #168 on: February 21, 2021, 09:10:11 PM »
PD,
Yes, my point assumes that the NT is reliable and accurate when it says that people believed Jesus was descended from David. I personally think it's a reasonable assumption, but it's for each person to decide. No, they rejected him as messiah for other reasons than his ancestry.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #169 on: February 22, 2021, 11:20:14 AM »
PD,
Yes, my point assumes that the NT is reliable and accurate when it says that people believed Jesus was descended from David.
So you start with an assumption that the NT is reliable and accurate and therefore conclude that something written in the NT (genealogy of Jesus) is ... err ... reliable and accurate.

Surely even you can see that this is a glaring circular argument.

Roses

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #170 on: February 22, 2021, 11:25:16 AM »
PD,
Yes, my point assumes that the NT is reliable and accurate when it says that people believed Jesus was descended from David. I personally think it's a reasonable assumption, but it's for each person to decide. No, they rejected him as messiah for other reasons than his ancestry.

You hope the NT is reliable and accurate, but have no evidence to support it being so.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #171 on: February 22, 2021, 11:26:16 AM »
I personally think it's a reasonable assumption, but it's for each person to decide.
Nope - whether or not the NT is accurate or not isn't just a personal opinion, akin to whether you or I like anchovies, or Mozart. Nope it is a matter that needs to be determined via research, scholarship and evidence.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #172 on: February 22, 2021, 11:31:31 AM »
No, they rejected him as messiah for other reasons than his ancestry.
How do you know that? All we know with confidence is that the vast majority of people around at the time and place when Jesus was preaching rejected him as the messiah - their reasons for doing so are opaque.

However the fact that they did reject him casts massive doubt on what is written in the gospels - if the purported events of the gospels actually happened as written and were witnessed by countless people (as is suggested in the gospels) surely it would be implausible that the people witnessing these incredible events not only rejecting him as messiah but also failed to follow him as a prophet. What this suggests to me is that the people around at the time witnessed nothing like the hyperbolic claimed events of the gospels.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 01:55:35 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Gordon

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #173 on: February 22, 2021, 11:41:13 AM »
PD,
Yes, my point assumes that the NT is reliable and accurate when it says that people believed Jesus was descended from David. I personally think it's a reasonable assumption, but it's for each person to decide. No, they rejected him as messiah for other reasons than his ancestry.

Then, in the absence of independent corroboration (or viable time travel), you're assuming too much. 

Spud

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Re: Genealogy Of Jesus
« Reply #174 on: February 23, 2021, 10:19:40 AM »
So you start with an assumption that the NT is reliable and accurate and therefore conclude that something written in the NT (genealogy of Jesus) is ... err ... reliable and accurate.

Surely even you can see that this is a glaring circular argument.

You can disbelieve the miraculous elements of the NT and still reasonably assume statements that Jesus was from the family of David to be accurate, and therefore consistent with the genealogies. But if you think the whole NT, including the non-miraculous details is fabricated or wrong, I would suggest this is not very sensible.