Free Will

[Sebastian Toe]

Knowledge resides in the human soul.

Where in the soul does it reside?

[Stranger]

The fact that you have the conscious freedom to speculate about such matters is a starting point for gaining faith.

So you keep baselessly asserting.

Nature alone could never provide such freedom...

Another utterly baseless assertion. You do get that mindlessly repeating baseless assertions is does not count as clear thinking,or even thinking, yes?

As I implied in an earlier post, information resides in a material brain.  Knowledge resides in the human soul.

Drivel.

Whatever you "know" is not defined by mere material reaction, but by the miraculous power given to us in our spiritual soul.

Yet another baseless assertion.

[torridon]

You must be living in a different world to me Torri
The evidence for a loving God, the human soul, Heaven and eternal salvation is there in abundance for me and for many millions of clear thinkers throughout the world.

If there were any real evidence, objective evidence, for any of these things, then we would already have science theories built on them.  I'm sure you must know this, deep down, somewhere. In reality, faith based beliefs flourish in the absence of evidence.

[SusanDoris]

The fact that you have the conscious freedom to speculate about such matters is a starting point for gaining faith.
Our human minds are not capable of "seeing" beyond what our physical senses give us, but human history shows a great propensity for the human mind to seek far beyond what our senses give.  Nature alone could never provide such freedom, so why do we have it and how did it come to be?
The answers all lie in the divine revelations of scripture.As I implied in an earlier post, information resides in a material brain.  Knowledge resides in the human soul.  Whatever you "know" is not defined by mere material reaction, but by the miraculous power given to us in our spiritual soul.

As NTTS says, such thinking, from so many people and from so many different  religions, all totally lacking any objectiv evidence, is terrifying. And they all rejoice when another child is indoctrinated, or another gullible adult persuaded to join them. So sad, when they have the wonders of reality, the real, testable, evidenced wonders of reality to learn about.

I would like to ask what AB and others think is the difference between belief in a God/god/gods/etc and aliensETs! But if mods think this is too off-topic, I shall quite understand and delete this section of the post.

[Alan Burns]

I would like to ask what AB and others think is the difference between belief in a God/god/gods/etc and aliensETs! But if mods think this is too off-topic, I shall quite understand and delete this section of the post.

I know of no Alien which demonstrated its love by suffering torture and death to open the door to eternal salvation.
I know of no Alien who's resurrection from the dead sparked off the greatest change humanity has ever seen.
I know of no Alien with whom I can build up an intimate two way relationship through prayer.
I know of no Alien which has inspired the lives of countless people to dedicate their lives to the service of such Alien and to their fellow human beings

[Stranger]

I would like to ask what AB and others think is the difference between belief in a God/god/gods/etc and aliensETs! But if mods think this is too off-topic, I shall quite understand and delete this section of the post.

The idea that aliens exist or have existed elsewhere (as opposed to UFOs being alien craft and that they've nothing better to do that draw patterns in fields, mutilate cattle, and abduct humans to stick probes up their bottoms) is far, far more reasonable than any god(s). It seems there are plenty of planets and the universe is a very, very big place.

[SusanDoris]

I know of no Alien which demonstrated its love by suffering torture and death to open the door to eternal salvation.
I know of no Alien who's resurrection from the dead sparked off the greatest change humanity has ever seen.
I know of no Alien with whom I can build up an intimate two way relationship through prayer.
I know of no Alien which has inspired the lives of countless people to dedicate their lives to the service of such Alien and to their fellow human beings

That's just mind-numbingly saccharine!! I can't stand any more, but then it's my own fault, I did pose the question! *deep sighs*
Back to the crossword ...

[Stranger]

I know of no Alien which demonstrated its love by suffering torture and death to open the door to eternal salvation.

One of the most absurd and self-contradictory notions I've ever heard from any religion. It would make your god into a bloodthirsty, vindictive, unjust, and cruel monster. Such a bizarre sadomasochistic act is not in the least bit loving.

I know of no Alien who's resurrection from the dead sparked off the greatest change humanity has ever seen.
I know of no Alien with whom I can build up an intimate two way relationship through prayer.
I know of no Alien which has inspired the lives of countless people to dedicate their lives to the service of such Alien and to their fellow human beings

And I know of no god(s) that have done any of those things either. Of course beliefs in god(s) -- all sorts of different and mutually contradictory ones -- and their associated myths have changed the world and many individuals in all sorts of ways (many of them for the worse).

[Alan Burns]

One of the most absurd and self-contradictory notions I've ever heard from any religion. It would make your god into a bloodthirsty, vindictive, unjust, and cruel monster. Such a bizarre sadomasochistic act is not in the least bit loving.

God did not inflict this on Himself - it was the evil manifest through God's gift of free will given to His created beings.  He did not create nature's puppets, but beings with their own freedom to choose between good and evil.

(back on topic  )

[Stranger]

God did not inflict this on Himself...

So if god had sent Jesus and nobody chose to torture him to death, then what...? Regardless, the requirement for anybody (some substitute) to suffer and die for us to be forgiven is itself manifestly unjust, doubly so as we're supposed to have to believe this insane nonsense for it to work. The fact that Jesus was only supposedly dead for three days makes it even more comical.

...it was the evil manifest through God's gift of free will given to His created beings.  He did not create nature's puppets, but beings with their own freedom to choose between good and evil.

Quite apart from the logical impossibility of 'free will' to begin with, in your myth we obviously don't have anything remotely like a free choice between 'good' and 'evil' because, according to said myth, everybody sins and needs forgiveness. If it were anything like a genuine choice, then at least some people would take it. Hence the judgement that requires us to be forgiven is itself unjust, making the whole Jesus dying for us even more bizarre, absurd, bloodthirsty, and vindictive.

[Alan Burns]

So if god had sent Jesus and nobody chose to torture him to death, then what...? Regardless, the requirement for anybody (some substitute) to suffer and die for us to be forgiven is itself manifestly unjust, doubly so as we're supposed to have to believe this insane nonsense for it to work. The fact that Jesus was only supposedly dead for three days makes it even more comical.

Quite apart from the logical impossibility of 'free will' to begin with, in your myth we obviously don't have anything remotely like a free choice between 'good' and 'evil' because, according to said myth, everybody sins and needs forgiveness. If it were anything like a genuine choice, then at least some people would take it. Hence the judgement that requires us to be forgiven is itself unjust, making the whole Jesus dying for us even more bizarre, absurd, bloodthirsty, and vindictive.

Yes, being human we all have failings - and we have the freedom to recognise and confess these failings to ourselves and to others and endeavour to correct them.
And there is freedom in being able to choose to accept Jesus as your Saviour - or to reject Him for whatever reason you choose.
It makes infinitely more sense of life than anything else I have come across in my sixty nine years on this earth.

I lay it (my life) down of my own free will. John 10:18

[torridon]

And there is freedom in being able to choose to accept Jesus as your Saviour - or to reject Him for whatever reason you choose.

However nobody is free to believe things they don't believe, or find implausible things to be plausible.  And yet this constitutes God's arbitrary criterion for 'salvation', apparently. And this makes sense to you ?

[Stranger]

Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fundamental impossibility of the sort of 'free will' you've proposed...

Yes, being human we all have failings...

A design flaw, then, not a choice.

...and we have the freedom to recognise and confess these failings to ourselves and to others and endeavour to correct them.

Which isn't nearly the same thing as having the freedom to choose 'good' in the first place. Hence any god's judgement for our failings is unjust.

And there is freedom in being able to choose to accept Jesus as your Saviour - or to reject Him for whatever reason you choose.

Which is to accept, not only the existence of this god (for which there is not the slightest shred of evidence or reasoning) but its injustice, bloodthirstiness, vindictiveness, and bizarre sadomasochistic tendencies. I am not, as torridon has pointed out, free to choose to find the implausible to be plausible or the absurd to be reasonable. I cannot choose to be convinced by what I find to be ridiculously unconvincing.

It makes infinitely more sense of life than anything else I have come across in my sixty nine years on this earth.

Wow. You really are blind to all logic and reasoning when it comes to this subject, aren't you?

I lay it (my life) down of my own free will. John 10:18

How do you think quoting your favourite book of contradictory myths will help?

[Alan Burns]

However nobody is free to believe things they don't believe, or find implausible things to be plausible.  And yet this constitutes God's arbitrary criterion for 'salvation', apparently. And this makes sense to you ?

I fully agree that we can only believe in what we honestly perceive to be true - regardless of personal preference.
It is why I could not possibly loose my faith after the real experiences in life which have led me to God.

I also recognise that there are genuine problems for many people who cannot find faith - my advice would be to use their God given freedom to keep seeking the truth.

Knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you will find.

[torridon]

I fully agree that we can only believe in what we honestly perceive to be true - regardless of personal preference.
It is why I could not possibly loose my faith after the real experiences in life which have led me to God.

I also recognise that there are genuine problems for many people who cannot find faith - my advice would be to use their God given freedom to keep seeking the truth.

Knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and you will find.

'Seeking truth' and 'finding faith' are not compatible.  If you want to know what is true, you have to avoid 'faith' like the plague. You need an open mind, not the closed mind of a believer.

[Alan Burns]

'Seeking truth' and 'finding faith' are not compatible.  If you want to know what is true, you have to avoid 'faith' like the plague. You need an open mind, not the closed mind of a believer.

It is not the believer's mind which is closed.
Are you able to open your mind to the possibility of the supernatural - things which are beyond natural scientific explanation?
If not you will find there are many missing pieces to the jigsaw of life.
I know your view that opening up to such possibility can lead to all sorts of man made imaginary scenarios.
But the means to seek the truth is not to be led by your own imagination or what you want to believe.
Just try a sincere prayer to allow God to to lead you to the truth.
You will know the truth when you find it.
And be prepared to be surprised by joy.   

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

[torridon]

It is not the believer's mind which is closed.
Are you able to open your mind to the possibility of the supernatural - things which are beyond natural scientific explanation?
If not you will find there are many missing pieces to the jigsaw of life.
I know your view that opening up to such possibility can lead to all sorts of man made imaginary scenarios.
But the means to seek the truth is not to be led by your own imagination or what you want to believe.
Just try a sincere prayer to allow God to to lead you to the truth.
You will know the truth when you find it.
And be prepared to be surprised by joy.   

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

Already tried that, many, many times and nothing happened, and a time comes when you have to accept there is never going to be a response and you have to stop banging your head on the wall.  Then you have to step back and ask, why does this God respond to some people and not others, and why does he 'lead' different people down different paths if there is supposed top be only one truth ? If there was just one God there there would be only one religion, but even with Christianity there are more branches than I've had hot dinners.  Given there is no objective evidence for this God, I can only assume God to be a construct in the mind of the believer, induced through spiritual practices, that is the only satisfactory explanation for the phenomenon of religion.

[Gordon]

It is not the believer's mind which is closed.

Yet another irony-meter bites the dust.

Are you able to open your mind to the possibility of the supernatural - things which are beyond natural scientific explanation?

Not without some reasonable and verifiable explanation of the 'supernatural', and if such as explanation was ever offered then the 'supernatural phenomena you are proselytising would have become 'natural' (having been explained): as it stands you are encouraging me to take self-evident woo seriously, and I'll decline the offer.

If not you will find there are many missing pieces to the jigsaw of life.

How can you know there really missing pieces if these pieces are, as you say, 'supernatural'?

I know your view that opening up to such possibility can lead to all sorts of man made imaginary scenarios.

There goes another irony-meter.

But the means to seek the truth is not to be led by your own imagination or what you want to believe.

And another.

Just try a sincere prayer to allow God to to lead you to the truth.
You will know the truth when you find it.
And be prepared to be surprised by joy.   

Or not.

[Stranger]

It is not the believer's mind which is closed.

This isn't my experience. Of course many believers are open-minded about many things but remain stubbornly closed-minded on subjects that relate to their faith. You are a prime example of somebody with a totally closed mind on the subject of 'free will' to the extent that you seem terrified to even learn enough about deductive logic to understand the fallacies you keep using or how to construct valid arguments - despite numerous claims about having 'sound logic' (which means both valid and based on true premises).

Are you able to open your mind to the possibility of the supernatural - things which are beyond natural scientific explanation?

To the possibility, of course. That doesn't mean that I see the slightest reason to take suggestions about it seriously, i.e. to regard them as at all probable.

If not you will find there are many missing pieces to the jigsaw of life.

Nobody knows everything and not knowing is far better than believing in baseless fantasies.

I know your view that opening up to such possibility can lead to all sorts of man made imaginary scenarios.
But the means to seek the truth is not to be led by your own imagination or what you want to believe.

It seems to be exactly the case for you. Your 'arguments' here seem to be based on nothing at all but what you desperately want to (continue to) believe. Of course you have (like most people) mainly latched on to other people's imaginations that have built a story over history.

Just try a sincere prayer to allow God to to lead you to the truth.
You will know the truth when you find it.
And be prepared to be surprised by joy.   

This is a recipe for self-deception rather than a path to truth. For a start, which god? If you 'sincerely pray' and have some sort of emotional reaction (because you really want it to be real), you will clearly associate it with whatever god you had in mind at the time.

If somebody prays in a in a detached way, just to see what happens, and then says nothing did, the believers tend to come back with a no true Scotsman fallacy: you obviously weren't being sincere enough.

Basically, if you really want to believe something and you try really, really try to do so, you may well succeed - if you're prepared to give up on all those pesky things like objective evidence and sound reasoning and, especially in the case of most forms of Christianity, are prepared to turn a blind eye to the glaring contradictions.

[Alan Burns]

It seems to be exactly the case for you. Your 'arguments' here seem to be based on nothing at all but what you desperately want to (continue to) believe. Of course you have (like most people) mainly latched on to other people's imaginations that have built a story over history.

My faith is not based on a desire to believe - it is based on real experiences and the experiences of many other people who have come to know God in many different ways.  I have no doubt you would be able to demonstrate your God given freedom to think up reasons to dismiss such experiences as coincidences or illusions or misunderstandings - just as you have thought up reasons to dismiss the miracle of your own free will as an illusion.

However I will continue to use my own God given freedom to witness to the true reason for our existence.

[Stranger]

My faith is not based on a desire to believe...

Given your complete inability to provide the slightest shred of evidence or sound reasoning to support your claims and the way you try to desperately ignore the problems with your attempts to do so, the obvious conclusion is a strong emotional desire to believe.

...it is based on real experiences and the experiences of many other people who have come to know God in many different ways.

Yes, I'm sure you have had religious experiences, so have many many people that believe in different and contradictory god(s) from yours (not to mention other fantastical claims). The thing is that whichever god you believe in, most people think you are wrong. In short, at least most religious believers have got it wrong, so why should an independent, rational observer take any of the claims seriously, given that none of them have evidence or reasoning, only 'experiences'?

I have no doubt you would be able to demonstrate your God given freedom to think up reasons to dismiss such experiences as coincidences or illusions or misunderstandings - just as you have thought up reasons to dismiss the miracle of your own free will as an illusion.

I and others have given you reasoning and logic. Your only responses have been assertions, gibberish, and fallacies. You won't even take the time to learn anything about logic (remember I linked to a free book?) or make any real attempt to address the problems people raise. How seriously do you really take this, if you can't even be arsed to learn about how logic works, even after you've repeatedly claimed to be using it? It suggests some combination of; fear, lack of confidence, lack of ability, lack of understanding, dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency. I may well have missed some other possibilities but what it doesn't suggest is commitment to communicating your point here and confidence that you can do so logically.

However I will continue to use my own God given freedom to witness to the true reason for our existence.

The evidence to date suggests that this means that you will just go on repeating the same nonsense over and over again, without the slightest hint of having really thought about it at all.

[Alan Burns]

I and others have given you reasoning and logic. Your only responses have been assertions, gibberish, and fallacies. You won't even take the time to learn anything about logic (remember I linked to a free book?) or make any real attempt to address the problems people raise. How seriously do you really take this, if you can't even be arsed to learn about how logic works, even after you've repeatedly claimed to be using it? It suggests some combination of; fear, lack of confidence, lack of ability, lack of understanding, dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency. I may well have missed some other possibilities but what it doesn't suggest is commitment to communicating your point here and confidence that you can do so logically.

As I have explained previously -
I fully understand the logic you adhere to, and why you come to your conclusions.

But the fact is that the logic fails to explain the reality.

Your short sighted logic confines our lives to be a roller coaster ride driven by inevitable reactions to past events with no means of changing direction.  You tell me that every choice I make could not possibly have been any different, yet you accuse me of such things as dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency.  Your logic implies that such things as dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency are just inevitable consequences which could not possibly have occurred any other way.  When you accuse me of these things, do you honestly believe that I could not possibly have chosen to do them differently?  You need to come to terms with reality - the reality which identifies the real you and the real me as free spirits - not just lumps of reconstituted star debris driven by nothing but physically defined material reactions with no will of our own.

[Stranger]

The evidence to date suggests that this means that you will just go on repeating the same nonsense over and over again, without the slightest hint of having really thought about it at all.

Surely I am a prophet!

As I have explained previously -
I fully understand the logic you adhere to, and why you come to your conclusions.

Obviously not. Firstly you don't seem to understand deductive logic as a subject, which is why (amongst other things) you fall into so many fallacies. Secondly, you clearly don't really understand the argument because you keep misrepresenting it and failing address the corrections or the objections to your own mistakes.

But the fact is that the logic fails to explain the reality.

Here we go again with a totally baseless assertion.

Your short sighted logic...

Another assertion of short-sightedness that you've never once manage to back up.

...confines our lives to be a roller coaster ride driven by inevitable reactions to past events with no means of changing direction.

Which is another false analogy or misrepresentation. It's not that you are forced along a track no matter what you might want or choose. It's that what you want and choose is because of reasons, i.e. the person you are, which got be be that way for reasons too (nature, nurture, and experience). Being 'free' of those things would mean being 'free' of being you, which is nonsensical. To the extent these things do not determine what you want or choose, you must be acting randomly (for reasons that have been explained to you multiple times by several people).

You tell me that every choice I make could not possibly have been any different, yet you accuse me of such things as dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency.  Your logic implies that such things as dishonesty, arrogance, or complacency are just inevitable consequences which could not possibly have occurred any other way.  When you accuse me of these things, do you honestly believe that I could not possibly have chosen to do them differently?

See above. Also, this is basically an argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy - as you would know if you could be arsed to learn about logic.

You need to come to terms with reality - the reality which identifies the real you and the real me as free spirits - not just lumps of reconstituted star debris driven by nothing but physically defined material reactions.

Another baseless assertion about reality and another misrepresentation of the argument against you.

[jeremyp]

You tell me that every choice I make could not possibly have been any different

Ok think about it. Let's say you are presented with a choice. You consider all the information available to you and you make a choice.

Is it your opinion that, if you were presented with the exact same choice again and you had exactly the same information available to you, you'd potentially make a different choice?

[Alan Burns]

Ok think about it. Let's say you are presented with a choice. You consider all the information available to you and you make a choice.

Is it your opinion that, if you were presented with the exact same choice again and you had exactly the same information available to you, you'd potentially make a different choice?

I have the freedom to make a different choice because I am not a robotic machine