Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 20397 times)

torridon

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #225 on: May 09, 2021, 11:17:20 AM »

You are not getting the point.

'Impossible' is just something we cannot imagine....until it actually happens.  Some fields interacting and producing the illusion of a solid world in which conscious beings happen to evolve and live...is impossible! It is magic by your definition. Nevertheless it actually has happened! 

The world really is 'magic'.

Not sure I agree with your definitions there. 'Impossible' in that sense, is just an expression of incredulity; something difficult to imagine.  It is not really 'impossible'.  Something truly impossible can never happen.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #226 on: May 09, 2021, 12:04:51 PM »
And the big question is -
What happens to the entity of spiritual awareness (which is you) when the biological machine it interacts with ceases to function?
We do not know for certain, but you will find some clues in the writings of the New Testament and subsequent commentaries.
What do you think happens in that instance, what do those clues lead you to conclude?

On a linked question, what happens to the concious  spiritual "you"  when your biological brain temporarily ceases to operate e.g. during sleep, if rendered unconscious or in a coma?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

BeRational

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #227 on: May 09, 2021, 02:41:48 PM »

You are not getting the point.

'Impossible' is just something we cannot imagine....until it actually happens.  Some fields interacting and producing the illusion of a solid world in which conscious beings happen to evolve and live...is impossible! It is magic by your definition. Nevertheless it actually has happened! 

The world really is 'magic'.

Surely if it's impossible it does not happen by definition
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Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2021, 06:59:51 AM »
Surely if it's impossible it does not happen by definition



No.  Possible and impossible are our limited perceptions. They are not absolute. Most of what we know today in terms of QM and relativity and QFT....would have been considered impossible few hundred years ago.

As Haldane has said....."My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose".  So...what is really possible is beyond our comprehension.

What some people now consider as 'magic', may well be possible.



Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2021, 09:07:14 AM »
No.  Possible and impossible are our limited perceptions.

Not really, no. Of course you can refer to something colloquially as 'impossible' because it's difficult but strictly speaking impossible means it can't happen. You can, of course, qualify it. A square circle is definitely impossible, travelling faster than light is impossible according to our current understanding, getting to the moon in 20 minutes is impossible with current technology.

The term magic is often applied to the arguments of some theists who point to something currently unexplained or counter-intuitive and say effectively "this is difficult to understand, therefore goddidit". If everybody took that view, science would never get anywhere. It's basically an argument from personal incredulity. They conclude that because science doesn't yet understand something it must be beyond science and require something 'supernatural' or 'magic'.
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BeRational

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2021, 11:47:14 AM »


No.  Possible and impossible are our limited perceptions. They are not absolute. Most of what we know today in terms of QM and relativity and QFT....would have been considered impossible few hundred years ago.

As Haldane has said....."My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we *can* suppose".  So...what is really possible is beyond our comprehension.

What some people now consider as 'magic', may well be possible.

I don't agree. Just because you cannot see how something can happen that does not make it impossible.

If something is impossible (not just what you suspect it might be) then it CANNOT happen. If it did, it would not be impossible.

Do you mean impossible, or "I cannot think how it could happen".

I am not that bothered about what you can or cannot imagine. I suspect the Cosmos is not limited to what you can imagine.

Do you agree?
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Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #231 on: May 10, 2021, 11:48:03 AM »
Not really, no. Of course you can refer to something colloquially as 'impossible' because it's difficult but strictly speaking impossible means it can't happen. You can, of course, qualify it. A square circle is definitely impossible, travelling faster than light is impossible according to our current understanding, getting to the moon in 20 minutes is impossible with current technology.

The term magic is often applied to the arguments of some theists who point to something currently unexplained or counter-intuitive and say effectively "this is difficult to understand, therefore goddidit". If everybody took that view, science would never get anywhere. It's basically an argument from personal incredulity. They conclude that because science doesn't yet understand something it must be beyond science and require something 'supernatural' or 'magic'.


No....that's not true.  We are not saying that science is yet to explain something and therefore Godditit is a convenient way out. Of course not.

Many people in the world are able to sense hidden forces and hidden patterns in their lives.  They are able to sense  hidden guidance and unseen driving forces that take their life forward. This makes them accept that there are unseen forces and an unknown intelligence behind their lives.

Meanwhile....science keeps pottering around with the eternal material universe and coming up with convoluted explanations or non-explanations,about life in general.  That is fine by itself. No problem.

But science also keeps telling people that all the unseen forces that they discern, are just imaginary and delusional and that there is no such hidden intelligence at work. It tells us what is possible and what is impossible in this world. This is the problem. 

Talking of magic.  As far as I am concerned...the fact that we are living on a piece of rock that is speeding around the universe....is magic!  That we have evolved and are able to now communicate with one another across the globe...is magic. 




Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2021, 11:49:26 AM »
I don't agree. Just because you cannot see how something can happen that does not make it impossible.

If something is impossible (not just what you suspect it might be) then it CANNOT happen. If it did, it would not be impossible.

Do you mean impossible, or "I cannot think how it could happen".

I am not that bothered about what you can or cannot imagine. I suspect the Cosmos is not limited to what you can imagine.

Do you agree?


I suspect the Cosmos is not limited to what you can imagine.


Yes...I agree. That is what I said.

BeRational

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2021, 11:53:29 AM »

I suspect the Cosmos is not limited to what you can imagine.


Yes...I agree. That is what I said.

I think you said Possible and Impossible are our limited perceptions?

I disagree. Possible and impossible are attributes of the Cosmos. Your opinions on them may be different.

So you should NOT declare something impossible if all you really mean is "I cannot think how it could happen".
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #234 on: May 10, 2021, 12:08:45 PM »
No....that's not true.  We are not saying that science is yet to explain something and therefore Godditit is a convenient way out. Of course not.

Who's 'we'? You may not be but some people do (Alan, for example).

Many people in the world are able to sense hidden forces and hidden patterns in their lives.  They are able to sense  hidden guidance and unseen driving forces that take their life forward. This makes them accept that there are unseen forces and an unknown intelligence behind their lives.

This is certainly what some people believe they can do but to conclude that they are actually doing it requires evidence. At it stands this is just a baseless assertion.

Meanwhile....science keeps pottering around with the eternal material universe and coming up with convoluted explanations or non-explanations,about life in general.  That is fine by itself. No problem.

What science does is construct testable hypotheses and hence well tested theories. Whether you regard them as 'convoluted' matters not a jot.

But science also keeps telling people that all the unseen forces that they discern, are just imaginary and delusional and that there is no such hidden intelligence at work. It tells us what is possible and what is impossible in this world. This is the problem. 

False. Science cannot deal with anything unless there is some means to test and potentially falsify it. It makes no generalised pronouncements on what is possible or impossible when it's outside of its scope.

Rational, thinking people, of course, will ask for evidence and/or reasoning for things like "unseen forces" and "hidden intelligence" before accepting them as factual (or even probable) in order to rule out mistakes, delusions, imagination, and so on. Claims like these are ten a penny and often contradict each other, so at least most of them must be wrong.
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torridon

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #235 on: May 12, 2021, 06:42:07 AM »

No....that's not true.  We are not saying that science is yet to explain something and therefore Godditit is a convenient way out. Of course not.

Many people in the world are able to sense hidden forces and hidden patterns in their lives.  They are able to sense  hidden guidance and unseen driving forces that take their life forward. This makes them accept that there are unseen forces and an unknown intelligence behind their lives.

..

That sounds a typical manifestation of human cognitive bias at work, and hence why we do science in the first place to figure what is actually going on.  Build an insentient machine, see if it can detect these 'hidden forces', and if it cannot, then the reasonable conclusion is that they don't exist, other than in the mind of the observer. 

Human minds are chock full of such biases.  For instance, if I stare in an unfocused way at my patterned carpet, sooner or later I can see a face in the carpet.  Some people can see faces in clouds or in rock formations.  This is cognitive bias at work, we are so preconditioned to discern faces within information that we often see them when they aren't there.  No matter if I remind myself that I have multiple lines evidence suggesting there is no one living in my carpet, the illusion persists and this guy in the pattern keeps staring back at me, eyeball to eyeball, unblinking.

This goes a long way to explain the persistence of many of the world's beliefs and superstitions, and it goes a long way to explain why we have learned to distrust personal testimony that is not backed up by objective evidence.  Often, things we feel we can 'sense', just aren't there, they are the outcome of hopes and expectations, many of which reside subconsciously in our minds all the time.

Recognising this helps explain why there are are so many unreasonable beliefs still prevalent in an age of (supposed) reason.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 06:47:52 AM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #236 on: May 12, 2021, 07:18:22 AM »
That sounds a typical manifestation of human cognitive bias at work, and hence why we do science in the first place to figure what is actually going on.  Build an insentient machine, see if it can detect these 'hidden forces', and if it cannot, then the reasonable conclusion is that they don't exist, other than in the mind of the observer. 

Human minds are chock full of such biases.  For instance, if I stare in an unfocused way at my patterned carpet, sooner or later I can see a face in the carpet.  Some people can see faces in clouds or in rock formations.  This is cognitive bias at work, we are so preconditioned to discern faces within information that we often see them when they aren't there.  No matter if I remind myself that I have multiple lines evidence suggesting there is no one living in my carpet, the illusion persists and this guy in the pattern keeps staring back at me, eyeball to eyeball, unblinking.

This goes a long way to explain the persistence of many of the world's beliefs and superstitions, and it goes a long way to explain why we have learned to distrust personal testimony that is not backed up by objective evidence.  Often, things we feel we can 'sense', just aren't there, they are the outcome of hopes and expectations, many of which reside subconsciously in our minds all the time.

Recognising this helps explain why there are are so many unreasonable beliefs still prevalent in an age of (supposed) reason.


Yes...all that is known and understood. 'The mind is a monkey' is an old adage.....and the imagination, clutter and noise generated in the mind is well known since ancient times.

But it is also true that many profound truths can be understood once the mind is properly understood and disciplined.  Most spiritual practices and yogic exercises are meant precisely to discipline the mind and to remove its clutter and imaginary tendencies.   

Once that is done, the true nature of our consciousness and of our Self will be known and the need for knowledge of the external world will become irrelevant and will cease.

torridon

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #237 on: May 12, 2021, 07:46:21 AM »

Yes...all that is known and understood. 'The mind is a monkey' is an old adage.....and the imagination, clutter and noise generated in the mind is well known since ancient times.

But it is also true that many profound truths can be understood once the mind is properly understood and disciplined.  Most spiritual practices and yogic exercises are meant precisely to discipline the mind and to remove its clutter and imaginary tendencies.   

Once that is done, the true nature of our consciousness and of our Self will be known and the need for knowledge of the external world will become irrelevant and will cease.

Ah, yes, the old personal testimony thing, again.  It's true, why, because I know it to be true. No math, no evidence, just (unreliable) personal experience.

Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #238 on: May 12, 2021, 08:23:02 AM »
Ah, yes, the old personal testimony thing, again.  It's true, why, because I know it to be true. No math, no evidence, just (unreliable) personal experience.


This is where we start diverging...     The impression that maths and instruments and measurements are the only way to understand reality....is what is the issue.

Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #239 on: May 12, 2021, 08:25:54 AM »
But it is also true that many profound truths can be understood once the mind is properly understood and disciplined.

Another baseless assertion. How do you know that these are truths? How are they tested?
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Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2021, 09:41:28 AM »
Another baseless assertion. How do you know that these are truths? How are they tested?


No...they cannot be tested ...not in the way you want anyway.

Think of it as similar to NDE's.  Some researchers do manage to test them.     

Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2021, 10:08:52 AM »
No...they cannot be tested ...not in the way you want anyway.

I'm inviting you to tell me how they can be tested. If there is no objective test, however, then to conclude that they are truths is irrational.
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BeRational

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2021, 12:15:58 PM »

No...they cannot be tested ...not in the way you want anyway.

Think of it as similar to NDE's.  Some researchers do manage to test them.   

I they cannot be tested, how do we know they are true.

Because we guess it seems true?

What is my guess and my feelings are totally the opposite of yours?
How can we tell which if either are correct?

You just seem to have some warm fuzzy feelings, and what to think you have some 'truth'. You don't. You just have warm fuzzy feelings.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2021, 01:24:50 PM »



Implicit learning or unconscious learning is a natural ability some people have through which they are able to predict complex patterns. This ability makes them predisposed to a belief in hidden forces or a God.   

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200909085942.htm

Some people just don't have this ability.

Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2021, 01:34:53 PM »
Implicit learning or unconscious learning is a natural ability some people have through which they are able to predict complex patterns. This ability makes them predisposed to a belief in hidden forces or a God.   

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200909085942.htm

Some people just don't have this ability.

Which is interesting but rather unsurprising and definitely irrelevant to the actual existence of "hidden forces" or a god(s). The more sensitive you are to recognising patterns the more the risk of false positives.
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Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2021, 01:43:09 PM »




We have already discussed these matters many times. You cannot prove to a stubborn and skeptical blind person that light exists.

This 'prove it' demand could go on forever.....   I just can't prove it to you. Those who can sense it, will...

Stranger

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2021, 01:58:50 PM »
We have already discussed these matters many times. You cannot prove to a stubborn and skeptical blind person that light exists.

We have indeed discussed it many times and this 'argument' is still as silly (and insulting to blind people) as it was last time. It's trivially easy to provide convincing evidence for infrared, radio waves, microwaves, and so on, which everybody is blind to.

Blind people aren't stupid and neither are people wanting actual evidence.

I just can't prove it to you. Those who can sense it, will...

There is either objective evidence or you can't be sure that it isn't imaginary.
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BeRational

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2021, 02:27:18 PM »



We have already discussed these matters many times. You cannot prove to a stubborn and skeptical blind person that light exists.

This 'prove it' demand could go on forever.....   I just can't prove it to you. Those who can sense it, will...

WRONG!

I am colour blind and cannot distinguish between red and gree, but I am perfectly happy to believe that others can.

This is really easy to test.
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torridon

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #248 on: May 13, 2021, 07:25:38 AM »


Implicit learning or unconscious learning is a natural ability some people have through which they are able to predict complex patterns. This ability makes them predisposed to a belief in hidden forces or a God.   

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200909085942.htm

Some people just don't have this ability.

So, you call my tendency to see faces in my patterned carpet, an 'ability';  I call it a cognitive bias.  We have to understand our biases in order to avoid fallacious conclusions.

Sriram

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #249 on: May 13, 2021, 07:59:48 AM »
So, you call my tendency to see faces in my patterned carpet, an 'ability';  I call it a cognitive bias.  We have to understand our biases in order to avoid fallacious conclusions.


No...the unconscious ability to predict patterns in the working of our lives, is not the same thing.

Think in terms of the unconscious mind that works behind and beyond our awareness....