Western Isles council rejects official sex ed in favour of Catholic teaching

[Roses]

It isn't obvious at all.

[Gordon]

I knew the place well back in the day: I was a regular visitor to the hospital in Stornoway as part of my job, including being stuck there on a Sunday because at the time (late 1990's I think) there were no scheduled Sunday flights in or out of Stornoway and my planned flight on the Saturday was cancelled (due to fog iirc). So I deciding that I'd just go in to the hospital and do some work on the Sunday, since everything was closed (inc. the bookies), only to be told when that "the LDOS (Lord's Day Observance Society)' might not approve", which I thought just plain odd since I wasn't interfering with anyone's religious activities by deciding to sit in an office all by myself and work.

The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.

[Anchorman]

That is shocking, religion should NEVER interfere with council business. Sex education is an import subject and be part of all children's curriculum just like maths, for instance.

   



Er.....you don't know too much about the Erstern Isles, then?

[Anchorman]

I knew the place well back in the day: I was a regular visitor to the hospital in Stornoway as part of my job, including being stuck there on a Sunday because at the time (late 1990's I think) there were no scheduled Sunday flights in or out of Stornoway and my planned flight on the Saturday was cancelled (due to fog iirc). So I deciding that I'd just go in to the hospital and do some work on the Sunday, since everything was closed (inc. the bookies), only to be told when that "the LDOS (Lord's Day Observance Society)' might not approve", which I thought just plain odd since I wasn't interfering with anyone's religious activities by deciding to sit in an office all by myself and work.

The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.

   



I've spent many months out there - though mainly on Iona and Mull.
The Iona Community is very different to the average Wee Free concept of religion, and I'm still an associate member.
I recall taking an American and an Aussie to Lewis one weekend.....the culture shock when they came up against the Sabbath was a wonder to behold.
Mind you; it was on Lewis where I first tasted genuine moonshine one Saturday night.
After that, I was not so startled by the lack of anything resembling activity on the Sabbath.....

[SteveH]

    Er.....you don't know too much about the Western Isles, then?

When has lack of knowledge ever stopped LR holding a strong and extreme opinion?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Nye,

When has lack of knowledge ever stopped LR holding a strong and extreme opinion?

Not here she hasn't.

Anyway, any clarity yet on whether in your view we should "respect" the decision in the Western Isles because that's their culture/religion, or whether instead it's legitimate to criticise it as a retrograde step that potentially at least could detrimentally deny pupils there the same knowledge and reasoning that's afforded to other pupils in the UK?   

[Roses]

Nye,

Not here she hasn't.

Anyway, any clarity yet on whether in your view we should respect the decision in the Western Isles because that's their culture/religion, or whether instead it's legitimate to criticise it as a retrograde step that potentially at least denies children there the same knowledge and reasoning that's afforded to other pupils around the UK?

Thanks Blue. I don't see anything extreme about criticising a council for upholding extreme RCC views on sex education.

[Anchorman]

Thanks Blue. I don't see anything extreme about criticising a council for upholding extreme RCC views on sex education.

   



Well, it shows that the concept of sectarianism has not polluted the islands, at least.

[Nearly Sane]

   



Well, it shows that the concept of sectarianism has not polluted the islands, at least.

Ha! As you know it has its own versions

[Robbie]

Does seem backward in a way but depends on how forcefully it is implemented. If it is just a background sort of teaching it won't be a lot different to how many of us were taught sex ed. at school. I was taught (at school) apart from the bilge, about sex within marriage even tho' everyone knew it happened outside marriage. For all that it was useful & informative. I had a good mother and grandmother who were able to fill in the blanks, not all do.
 
What is important is how parents teach their children at home in addition to the school lessons.

[Anchorman]

Ha! As you know it has its own versions

   


Oh, yes.....the Kirk is the Kirk, and the Wee Freese think it's an abomination.......

[Nearly Sane]

   


Oh, yes.....the Kirk is the Kirk, and the Wee Freese think it's an abomination.......

Time for Emo Philips great joke

"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over"


And also diagram of the splits


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png

[ProfessorDavey]

I have a friend who relocated from Hampshire to the Western Isles and ended up marrying the local GP. They were regularly bullied by the Sunday observance crowd, even to the extent of being chastised for hanging out washing on a Sunday.

Anyhow my friend's wife wasn't someone to be messed with. She basically asked whether these people thought that if they were seriously ill whether she, as a GP, should come and treat them on a Sunday. Of course they replied, that's your job. Her response, well if you insist I treat you on a Sunday, I insist that I should be able to put out washing on Sunday if I choose. The complaining died down after that.

[Anchorman]

Time for Emo Philips great joke

"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over"

 
And also diagram of the splits


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png

     



The repost is the one about a Lewis man who was stranded on a desert island for many years.
On being found, his rescuers noted that he had constructed a house, and two churches.
"Why two churches", they asked.
"Ach, one is where I go to pray on the Sabbath, and the other is the one I will never visit."

[Roses]

I have a friend who relocated from Hampshire to the Western Isles and ended up marrying the local GP. They were regularly bullied by the Sunday observance crowd, even to the extent of being chastised for hanging out washing on a Sunday.

Anyhow my friend's wife wasn't someone to be messed with. She basically asked whether these people thought that if they were seriously ill whether she, as a GP, should come and treat them on a Sunday. Of course they replied, that's your job. Her response, well if you insist I treat you on a Sunday, I insist that I should be able to put out washing on Sunday if I choose. The complaining died down after that.

Good for them.

[ProfessorDavey]

The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.

True although there are some aspects that are pretty similar.

First the differences - the levels of religious observance is higher, by far, than anywhere else in the UK I imagine. Latest figures suggest over 40% of the population attend church - the UK and Scottish figures are about 7%. But this means that the majority, even in the western isles aren't church-goers, so the authorities who attempt to impose a strictly religious rules are doing so from a minority position, albeit one close to a majority.

Now the similarly - church attendance in the western isles is on the decline, just as it is across the UK:

http://www.hebrides-news.com/decline-in-church-attendance-16417.html

So the sunday observance brigade are fighting a rear-guard and ultimately losing battle as the island, just like the rest of the UK, become increasingly secular. They are just a few decades behind the rest of the country.

[SteveH]

Good for them.

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.

[SteveH]

It isn't obvious at all.

I did say "to anyone with half a brain"...

[Nearly Sane]

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.

Surely you are just disagreeing what 'within reason' means? Also the hanging out of washing on a Sunday  is not against the law, even in the Western Isles.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason.

Where did I say that she was an outsider - I didn't. My friend was from Hampshire, he relocated to the Uists, he met his wife, the GP, there.

[SteveH]

Where did I say that she was an outsider - I didn't. My friend was from Hampshire, he relocated to the Uists, he met his wife, the GP, there.

Sorry - read it carelessly. I thought she was the one from Hampshire.

[ProfessorDavey]

Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration.

Completely inappropriate comparison - in Saudi there are laws that prohibit drinking and anyone will be expected to abide by the laws of the land. In the Uists there are no laws that prohibit hanging washing on the line - if someone does this they aren't breaking any rules, merely not pandering to the extreme views of  a religious minority on the islands.

Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.

The strict sabbatarians can do what they want. What they cannot do - noting they aren't even a majority - is insist that others who aren't strict sabbatarians follow their practice.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.

There is another point.

Unlike Saudi these communities desperately need outsiders - the communities would simply die on their feet without people relocating to the islands and bringing essential skills with them. As with many rural communities young people leave, often initially for educational reasons, and never return. The only way the communities will remain viable is for those people who leave to be replaced by 'outsiders' joining. If you make those outsiders (bringing essential skills) feel like pariahs unless they conform to bizarre and extreme religious practices, well guess what - they wont come. And then you wont just have no GP on a Sunday, but no GP at all.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Nye,

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.

You seem confused still. On the one hand you tell us we should “respect” the culture and religion of other people, but then you add qualifiers like “within reason” and “unnecessary”. Who though gets to decide what’s reasonable and what’s unnecessary?

I happen to think that the decision in the Western Isles is not “within reason”, and is “unnecessary”. On paper at least it’s a retrograde step, and I see nothing wrong explaining why if I want to. Who knows – maybe if enough people did that it would provide support to the councillors who object to it, and cause those who support it to think again. That’s what free speech can do.

What in your view would be wrong if I were to do that?   

[ProfessorDavey]

Nye,

You seem confused still. On the one hand you tell us we should “respect” the culture and religion of other people, but then you add qualifiers like “within reason” and “unnecessary”. Who though gets to decide what’s reasonable and what’s unnecessary?

I happen to think that the decision in the Western Isles is not “within reason”, and is “unnecessary”. On paper at least it’s a retrograde step, and I see nothing wrong explaining why if I want to. Who knows – maybe if enough people did that it would provide support to the councillors who object to it, and cause those who support it to think again. That’s what free speech can do.

What in your view would be wrong if I were to do that?   

I think there is a highly patriarchal and, in effect, bullying attitude going on up there. Doesn't surprise me at all that every member of the council is male - how on earth can that happen in this day and age, unless women are actively discouraged (to say the least) from engaging in active political life where they might just change things.

Now I know this is an anecdote from about 20 years ago, but my friend (he used to be a debt collector if you understand the relevance) but became a chimney sweep and general odd job man when he relocated to South Uist. Now if you know the islands you'll know that North Uist is wee free, South Uist and Barra are catholic - so there is a kind of front line between the sunday observance crowd to the north and the much more relaxed catholics to the south. Now my friend was told in no uncertain terms that if his van was seen on North Uist on a Sunday (not necessarily working just his van seen there) that he would never work again on North Uist. This was no idle threat if you understand my meaning and one that he complied with despite that fact that in his earlier life his job effectively involved sticking his foot in the door of people in debt and threatening them if they didn't pay.

I suspect things have softened now as the wee frees are slowly losing their grip, but back then it was effectively like the mafia.