Western Isles council rejects official sex ed in favour of Catholic teaching

[bluehillside Retd.]

Nye,

Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol…

The analogy doesn’t work. If I intended to send my children to schools in the Western Isles but refused to let them comply with the local education policy then you’d at least have a comparator in principle. That’s not the case though – I’m just saying that I think the policy is a bad one, which (ironically) is analogous to you saying that you think some of the rules in Saudi are bad ones too.       

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Prof,

I think there is a highly patriarchal and, in effect, bullying attitude going on up there. Doesn't surprise me at all that every member of the council is male - how on earth can that happen in this day and age, unless women are actively discouraged (to say the least) from engaging in active political life where they might just change things.

Now I know this is an anecdote from about 20 years ago, but my friend (he used to be a debt collector if you understand the relevance) but became a chimney sweep and general odd job man when he relocated to South Uist. Now if you know the islands you'll know that North Uist is wee free, South Uist and Barra are catholic - so there is a kind of front line between the sunday observance crowd to the north and the much more relaxed catholics to the south. Now my friend was told in no uncertain terms that if his van was seen on North Uist on a Sunday (not necessarily working just his van seen there) that he would never work again on North Uist. This was no idle threat if you understand my meaning and one that he complied with despite that fact that in his earlier life his job effectively involved sticking his foot in the door of people in debt and threatening them if they didn't pay.

I suspect things have softened now as the wee frees are slowly losing their grip, but back then it was effectively like the mafia.

Thanks for the story – which sounds frankly sinister. Not sure why, but it reminded me a bit of the Wicker Man:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man
 

[Roses]

I did say "to anyone with half a brain"...

Oh dear I am so sorry you only have half a brain that is very sad!

[ProfessorDavey]

Hi Prof,

Thanks for the story – which sounds frankly sinister.

Oh yes - he knew when he was being threatened.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not sure why, but it reminded me a bit of the Wicker Man:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man

Indeed - but that was kind of the other way around - the puritan christian in the Wicker man was the outsider coming into a pagan culture and trying to force the local to adopt his puritan christian ways. Didn't turn out too well for him though

Although the Wicker man was supposed to have been set in the outer isles it was actually filmed in Galloway, near where my parents lived. With the film attaining cult status some of the locations of various scenes became tourist attraction for that reason.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Prof,

Oh yes - he knew when he was being threatened.

Still, just a long as it was done in the name of Jesus eh?...

Indeed - but that was kind of the other way around - the puritan christian in the Wicker man was the outsider coming into a pagan culture and trying to force the local to adopt his puritan christian ways. Didn't turn out too well for him though 

I know, but the phenomenon was reminiscent of the film – a closed, inward-looking, intolerant community willing to go to any lengths etc. What the belief system actually happened to be is a secondary matter (see above).

Incidentally, I also like that if you take all the “ds” out of “Edward Woodward” you get “Ewar Woowar” 

Although the Wicker man was supposed to have been set in the outer isles it was actually filmed in Galloway, near where my parents lived. With the film attaining cult status some of the locations of various scenes became tourist attraction for that reason.

Is that right? I first saw the film as a teenager and remember being terrified by the oddness of it.

[Nearly Sane]

Prof,

Still, just a long as it was done in the name of Jesus eh?...

....

My ex's mother was from Lewis, and we often travelled with her to stay  at Christmas and New Year. One time we were at one of her cousin's for dinner, and towards the end of the meal he turned to her and said 'Kathy, you know I love you but you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell'


I should also note that there  is a streak of wildness in the culture which has more 'pagan' aspects than are usually portrayed. Many on the island behave 'scandalously' but in mid life they 'get the cuirm', and become pillars of the church.

[Roses]

My ex's mother was from Lewis, and we often travelled with her to stay  at Christmas and New Year. One time we were at one of her cousin's for dinner, and towards the end of the meal he turned to her and said 'Kathy, you know I love you but you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell'


I should also note that there  is a streak of wildness in the culture which has more 'pagan' aspects than are usually portrayed. Many on the island behave 'scandalously' but in mid life they 'get the cuirm', and become pillars of the church.

Being 'pillars of the church' doesn't stop people behaving badly. As I have mentioned many times the Pastor of the pentecostal church I attended  as a kid banged on about the fires of hell for unbelievers, but that didn't stop him touching me inappropriately when I was 14!

[Anchorman]

True although there are some aspects that are pretty similar. First the differences - the levels of religious observance is higher, by far, than anywhere else in the UK I imagine. Latest figures suggest over 40% of the population attend church - the UK and Scottish figures are about 7%. But this means that the majority, even in the western isles aren't church-goers, so the authorities who attempt to impose a strictly religious rules are doing so from a minority position, albeit one close to a majority. Now the similarly - church attendance in the western isles is on the decline, just as it is across the UK: http://www.hebrides-news.com/decline-in-church-attendance-16417.html So the sunday observance brigade are fighting a rear-guard and ultimately losing battle as the island, just like the rest of the UK, become increasingly secular. They are just a few decades behind the rest of the country.

For all that, I'd be saddened if the Western Isles became too 'british'. There's an atmosphere there, a joy probably born of hardship and isolation which is hard to find anywhere else. I've spent many an hour in a ceilidh in Barra, or Lewis, Harris or the Uists, and each time, though the character of the isles, and indeed the religion, vary, still the sense of place is palpable. Of course, I always return to my beloved Iona, the 'thin place', as George McLeod called it, which manages to be inclusive yet special, and still shines bright in the firmament. I was actually supposed to be there now - having been planning to spend six weeks over winter, but the best laid plans, I suppose. Still, there's aye Easter.

[ProfessorDavey]

For all that, I'd be saddened if the Western Isles became too 'british'. There's an atmosphere there, a joy probably born of hardship and isolation which is hard to find anywhere else. I've spent many an hour in a ceilidh in Barra, or Lewis, Harris or the Uists, and each time, though the character of the isles, and indeed the religion, vary, still the sense of place is palpable. Of course, I always return to my beloved Iona, the 'thin place', as George McLeod called it, which manages to be inclusive yet special, and still shines bright in the firmament. I was actually supposed to be there now - having been planning to spend six weeks over winter, but the best laid plans, I suppose. Still, there's aye Easter.

I agree that the western isles have an incredibly distinctive feel, way beyond the religious element. That feeling of remoteness and a world beyond the world. But I'm not convinced this has much to do with religion rather than the necessary isolation and need to be self contained of the place. I actually think that the special-ness of the place can only be preserved by the communities evolving.

If you look at the article I linked to apart from the drop in church attendance another thing you may notice is that the population is slowly dwindling. This is because many young people leave for education and/or careers and never return. Without new people permanently relocating to the isles the population and its distinctiveness will be gone in the coming decades. And anyone who relocates permanently is likely to be drawn to that distinctive culture of isolation and self-reliance so will probably preserve the culture. The last thing you want to do is drive these critical people away due to bizarre and archaic religious observance that isn't even a majority pursuit, given that 3 in 5 people don't even attend church (let alone abide by strict Sunday observance rules).

So the real threat to the culture, and frankly survival of the place, in my view is dogmatic insistence of religious observance which drives away both the young people of the island and also those who might otherwise choose to permanently relocate.

Iona is also an incredible special place - but its feel is completely different to the western isles and is much more overtly religious/spiritual in its specialness.

[Anchorman]

I agree that the western isles have an incredibly distinctive feel, way beyond the religious element. That feeling of remoteness and a world beyond the world. But I'm not convinced this has much to do with religion rather than the necessary isolation and need to be self contained of the place. I actually think that the special-ness of the place can only be preserved by the communities evolving. If you look at the article I linked to apart from the drop in church attendance another thing you may notice is that the population is slowly dwindling. This is because many young people leave for education and/or careers and never return. Without new people permanently relocating to the isles the population and its distinctiveness will be gone in the coming decades. And anyone who relocates permanently is likely to be drawn to that distinctive culture of isolation and self-reliance so will probably preserve the culture. The last thing you want to do is drive these critical people away due to bizarre and archaic religious observance that isn't even a majority pursuit, given that 3 in 5 people don't even attend church (let alone abide by strict Sunday observance rules). So the real threat to the culture, and frankly survival of the place, in my view is dogmatic insistence of religious observance which drives away both the young people of the island and also those who might otherwise choose to permanently relocate. Iona is also an incredible special place - but its feel is completely different to the western isles and is much more overtly religious/spiritual in its specialness.

Yet the religious nature of Iona could be described as 'practical ecumenism'. The programme for the six weeks I should have spent there was to include Christ in diversity. Inclusive yet exclusive; accepting without judgement. Disability and practical service. Walking a tightrope: Christ in the gutter. These, and other topics, would be followed up in the coming months with seminars at the Glasgow HQ, plus various assignments in the field. We're cobbling together something similar for Easter. Yes, Iona IS spiritual.....but sitting on your bum praying is only part of it, and not a big part at that.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yet the religious nature of Iona could be described as 'practical ecumenism'. The programme for the six weeks I should have spent there was to include Christ in diversity. Inclusive yet exclusive; accepting without judgement. Disability and practical service. Walking a tightrope: Christ in the gutter. These, and other topics, would be followed up in the coming months with seminars at the Glasgow HQ, plus various assignments in the field. We're cobbling together something similar for Easter. Yes, Iona IS spiritual.....but sitting on your bum praying is only part of it, and not a big part at that.

I suspect the impact that Iona has on an individual is just that ... individual.

I've only visited a couple of times and never stayed over. My feeling was of a sanctuary (and I don't really mean that in a religious sense). It's impact on me was of a small but beautiful abbey utterly dominated by the surrounding scenery and therefore a real connection between the natural and the man made. I've spoken in the past of my 'wanting' to believe in my late teens/early 20s and that was when I visited. And Iona is perhaps the place that came closest to making me belief - but ultimately the experience was one of closeness to nature and for me (I fully understand others will feel differently) thoughts of a man-made god and some person executed 2000 years ago would have diminished, not enhanced, my feelings at Iona.

But the main thread is about the western isles, not Iona - they are completely different places. The latter defined pretty well exclusively by the religious of its abbey, the former a normal 'warts and all' community much like any others, albeit with a different feel due to its remoteness.

[Anchorman]

I suspect the impact that Iona has on an individual is just that ... individual. I've only visited a couple of times and never stayed over. My feeling was of a sanctuary (and I don't really mean that in a religious sense). It's impact on me was of a small but beautiful abbey utterly dominated by the surrounding scenery and therefore a real connection between the natural and the man made. I've spoken in the past of my 'wanting' to believe in my late teens/early 20s and that was when I visited. And Iona is perhaps the place that came closest to making me belief - but ultimately the experience was one of closeness to nature and for me (I fully understand others will feel differently) thoughts of a man-made god and some person executed 2000 years ago would have diminished, not enhanced, my feelings at Iona. But the main thread is about the western isles, not Iona - they are completely different places. The latter defined pretty well exclusively by the religious of its abbey, the former a normal 'warts and all' community much like any others, albeit with a different feel due to its remoteness.

It's the Iona Community thing with me. I'm still an associate member, and try to keep the 'rule' every day, if I can. I used to be a full time member - too many years ago to try to get my head round. I bought into George McLeod's vision of the island as a centre for activists, both spiritual and community. When we are engaged in a project, we don't ram faith down folks throats - it gets up their noses in any case; neither do we hide our faith. We try to be active in the area of "The least, the last and the lost' as McLeod put it; my first stint was as a volunteer in a 'cold turkey' rehab house in Ayr. Yes, the sense of Spirit pervades the island, but it should engender a sense of purpose. One of the many things which delights me is that, when we are in community, we abandon rank, style and denomination. You can be washing dishes besides a Southern Baptist pastor, or peeling spuds with a Roman Catholic priest on one side, and a Kirk minister on the other - with not a dog collar in sight. Just as Columcille used the place, not as a retreat from the world, but as the centrepiece of a network for mission, the community uses the island both as a place for spiritual refreshment...and not only the golden type, though, hey....there's that as well....but as a launch pad for its work.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's the Iona Community thing with me. I'm still an associate member, and try to keep the 'rule' every day, if I can. I used to be a full time member - too many years ago to try to get my head round. I bought into George McLeod's vision of the island as a centre for activists, both spiritual and community. When we are engaged in a project, we don't ram faith down folks throats - it gets up their noses in any case; neither do we hide our faith. We try to be active in the area of "The least, the last and the lost' as McLeod put it; my first stint was as a volunteer in a 'cold turkey' rehab house in Ayr. Yes, the sense of Spirit pervades the island, but it should engender a sense of purpose. One of the many things which delights me is that, when we are in community, we abandon rank, style and denomination. You can be washing dishes besides a Southern Baptist pastor, or peeling spuds with a Roman Catholic priest on one side, and a Kirk minister on the other - with not a dog collar in sight. Just as Columcille used the place, not as a retreat from the world, but as the centrepiece of a network for mission, the community uses the island both as a place for spiritual refreshment...and not only the golden type, though, hey....there's that as well....but as a launch pad for its work.

Sounds as if it is the Iona community movement rather than Iona the place that is most important to you. And indeed many of the activities you describe can, and are, not conducted in Iona the place. And therefore I presume the community could be based in places other than Iona and would still be special to you.

For me it is the opposite - I have no engagement, nor desire for engagement with a christian religious community. However Iona the place is very special due to it's end of the earth feel and that it makes humanity seem insignificant in the context of nature. I remember in Iona Abbey thinking that I rather liked being in churches but massively prefer them while empty or next to empty rather than full of a worshiping community. That time I was just about the only person in the place, except for a couple of rather accomplished musicians (one was a flautist, the other a cellist) playing/practicing quietly - it was a special moment, but not a religious one.

[Anchorman]

Sounds as if it is the Iona community movement rather than Iona the place that is most important to you. And indeed many of the activities you describe can, and are, not conducted in Iona the place. And therefore I presume the community could be based in places other than Iona and would still be special to you.

For me it is the opposite - I have no engagement, nor desire for engagement with a christian religious community. However Iona the place is very special due to it's end of the earth feel and that it makes humanity seem insignificant in the context of nature. I remember in Iona Abbey thinking that I rather liked being in churches but massively prefer them while empty or next to empty rather than full of a worshiping community. That time I was just about the only person in the place, except for a couple of rather accomplished musicians (one was a flautist, the other a cellist) playing/practicing quietly - it was a special moment, but not a religious one.

   
Oh, yes, the Abby is indeed special, and atmospheric, Prof.
All the more so when one realises that it's in its' present state thanks to Mcleod, who took a group of trainee ministers and unemployed folk from Govan with little knowledge of building, and started rebuilding the Abby, and, at the same time, creating the community...in a sense the Abby wouldn't exist in its' present state (Iona having its' own, rather beautiful, parish Kirk) without the concept of the community.
Incidentally, a couple of years back, archaeologists from Historic Scotland found what is almost certainly Columcille's cell, not far from St Oran's Cross.
It doesn't get any more significant than that!

[ProfessorDavey]

   
Oh, yes, the Abby is indeed special, and atmospheric, Prof.
All the more so when one realises that it's in its' present state thanks to Mcleod, who took a group of trainee ministers and unemployed folk from Govan with little knowledge of building, and started rebuilding the Abby, and, at the same time, creating the community...in a sense the Abby wouldn't exist in its' present state (Iona having its' own, rather beautiful, parish Kirk) without the concept of the community.

Wasn't aware of that and it makes an interesting story.

However I'm not sure that makes a lot of difference - from memory (and it is a long time ago) I liked the Abbey because of its simplicity, a kind of humbleness towards the landscape. To be honest it probably wouldn't have been much different, arguably even more atmospheric, had the abbey been derelict, in the manner of Tintern. What would have ruined it for me would have been an abbey which was too ornate and kind of trying to dominate the landscape rather than be subservient to it.

I think the presence of music - the flautist and cellist, also made a big impression. No idea who they were but they weren't playing anything sacred - can't remember exactly what it was, but fairly standard classical pieces.

[Enki]

Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.

[Anchorman]

Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.

     




Ah.....but did you spot the statue of Hercules the bear?

[ProfessorDavey]

Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.

Yup - I'd agree with all that.

And having travelled through the Highlands and Skye the Uists are a completely different type of landscape - not the rugged mountainous landscape of the Highlands, but a strange low watery landscape where you constantly seem to be crossing little inlets.

And yes the birds were captivating too - my recollection being lapwings (I think they were) taking off and then being carried horizontally on the wind - next stop North America.

One other recollection - something I don't remember seeing anywhere else. The roads had road markings for 'Blind summits' everywhere. Those in the know said it was to help drivers returning from the pub, if you get my drift.

[splashscuba]

What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?

I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but I don't have to respect your chosen set of beliefs.

[Nearly Sane]

I think I have mentioned on here welcoming in the New Year amongst the stones at Calanais, and how moving it was as the year ticked over on a spot where the history stretched back 5000 years. That will be 20 years ago tomorrow.

[ProfessorDavey]

I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but I don't have to respect your chosen set of beliefs.

Steve's claim is completely untenable.

He seems to be arguing that because less that 50% of the population of a place have a particular belief and observance then everyone must follow suit regardless of their own beliefs, even when there is no law against people doing certain things on a Sunday. This seems to be a contravention of basic rights and freedoms.

Translate that to a different area of the country where a tiny minority, for the sake of argument let's say 5%, attend church. To be consistent you would have to argue that the tiny minority must adopt the customs of the vast majority who don't attend church and should therefore refrain from attending church themselves.

Would you be happy with that Steve? I suspect only a tiny minority in Hemel Hempstead attend church so in order to 'respect' the chosen set of beliefs of the vast majority who aren't church goers you shouldn't attend church to align with and respect the prevailing culture of the place you live in.

[Gordon]

The culture of Lewis certainly involves complying with the preferences of the 'Wee Frees', so its a matter of tradition and to what extent these demands can be considered to be authoritative; but it is slowly changing, since flights and ferries operate on a Sundays, as far as I can see the bookies are open on Sundays and I recall the cinema also had Sunday showings - but the main supermarket remains shut, as is the golf course. It seems likely that these particular traditions will be eroded, but the Western Isles isn't the only place where activity on Sundays is constrained.

Every time I visit England I'm astonished that there are still limitations imposed on the larger supermarkets as regards the number of hours they can open on Sundays: they are restricted to 6 continuous hours between 10.00am and 6.00pm and must close on Easter Sunday, whereas in the West of Scotland (where I am) there are no restrictions at all - for example my local Asda (a few minutes walk) opens from 8am - 10pm on Sundays, while the Asda at Clydebank (10 minutes drive) is open for 24 hours on Sundays.


   

[ProfessorDavey]

The culture of Lewis certainly involves complying with the preferences of the 'Wee Frees', so its a matter of tradition and to what extent these demands can be considered to be authoritative; but it is slowly changing, since flights and ferries operate on a Sundays, as far as I can see the bookies are open on Sundays and I recall the cinema also had Sunday showings - but the main supermarket remains shut, as is the golf course. It seems likely that these particular traditions will be eroded, but the Western Isles isn't the only place where activity on Sundays is constrained.

I think it is one thing where there is planning regulations or other official rule preventing certain activities happening on a Sunday - for example opening hours restrictions under planning. We might not agree, but there is at least an official process. That isn't the same as effectively threatening people who do not uphold your religious view while not breaking any regulations - such as my hanging washing and veiled threat to a workman. That is entirely different and frankly this contravenes any notion of freedom of religion (which extends to freedom from religion). If a wee free doesn't want to hang their washing out on a Sunday because of their religious belief - fine no-one is going to force them. But nor should others be forced not to hang out their washing on a Sunday if they do not hold that religious belief. It smacks hugely of double standards - "you must respect my beliefs, but I don't have to respect your beliefs".

[ProfessorDavey]

Every time I visit England I'm astonished that there are still limitations imposed on the larger supermarkets as regards the number of hours they can open on Sundays: they are restricted to 6 continuous hours between 10.00am and 6.00pm and must close on Easter Sunday, whereas in the West of Scotland (where I am) there are no restrictions at all - for example my local Asda (a few minutes walk) opens from 8am - 10pm on Sundays, while the Asda at Clydebank (10 minutes drive) is open for 24 hours on Sundays.

I agree - the opening hours laws in England are archaic and actually delivery exactly the opposition of what the 'Keep Sunday special' brigade claim to want (albeit they actually think we should simply be adhering to their religious view). So the claim is that restricting opening hours for shops provides time for families to engage in other more meaningful activities. But in reality if shops are only open 10-4 you lose the best part of the day if you need to do some shopping. Rather than pop in at 8am, be done with shopping by 9am and then have the rest of the day free to go out etc, you can't get going until perhaps 12.

And I know others have challenged me on this on the basis that you should be able to find other times to shop. Well guess what with busy lives, young kids etc, often Sunday becomes the only time to be able to get to the shops, for example to but new shoes for the kids etc. You cannot do it in the week due to school/work and Saturdays is often wall to wall clubs, music lessons, kid's parties etc.