Harry & Meghan

[Aruntraveller]

Well the interview has been shown in the USA and various pundits here have had their say.

I was sceptical about the claims of racism the couple put forward and thought they were perhaps being oversensitive. After all the press have been fairly even handed in the way they treat the couple. Haven't they?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/meghan-markle-kate-middleton-double-standards-royal?

Bit of an eye opener to me. I don't read the papers involved on a regular basis but the comparisons drawn are fairly shocking.

I'm no fan of the whole set up, but I've gone from a fairly "huh - what does it matter?" to "They really are pretty vile to her". And that's just the press.

If the accusation of someone asking about what colour the baby will turn out is true, then some soul searching within the family needs to go on as well.

I can't find it in my heart to criticise them for leaving, no matter that they are a couple of over-privileged young people.

[ProfessorDavey]

Well the interview has been shown in the USA and various pundits here have had their say.

I was sceptical about the claims of racism the couple put forward and thought they were perhaps being oversensitive. After all the press have been fairly even handed in the way they treat the couple. Haven't they?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/meghan-markle-kate-middleton-double-standards-royal?

Bit of an eye opener to me. I don't read the papers involved on a regular basis but the comparisons drawn are fairly shocking.

I'm no fan of the whole set up, but I've gone from a fairly "huh - what does it matter?" to "They really are pretty vile to her". And that's just the press.

I'd seen a couple of those examples before, but not all of them. It is jaw dropping the difference in approach from the media - the cloying sycophancy towards Kate and the viciousness towards Meghan on exactly the same topic.

Now I'm not entirely sure this is necessarily racism (although it may well be). There are other reasons why the media 'love' Kate and 'hate' Meghan. First good old fashioned xenophobia - Meghan is american so 'not one of us' and therefore is ripe for criticism. And good old fashioned misogyny - Kate plays the role of the perfect dutiful model 1950s wife - perfectly turned out and never says anything remotely challenging - just there to support her hubby and have his kids. Meghan on the other hand is a strong and independent women who forged a successful career prior to becoming a royal, and clearly wants to continue to have an independent career. You can see why the Mail will hate this.

So it may be racism, it may be xenophobia or misogyny, or indeed a combination of all three. But it is hugely distasteful and reflects appallingly on our media if, well into the 21st century, they are unable to accept a strong independent woman who is black and not born and raised in the UK. Appalling.

[SteveH]

Give me Meghan Sparkle any day - Kate Middleclass is a snooty parvenu.

[Owlswing]

There are times when you boys and girls absolutely amaze and astonish me!

Absolutely vicious anti-Royalty to the point of being (Left Wing/Communist) Republicans and yet you can see the disgusting nature of the treatment by the Press of Megan.

I noted a few points after the interview was aired in the US!

The papers have made a huge thing of the 'bullying' charge. Strange that this (supposed) bullying took place during Megan's first big Royalty Tour of OZ and nothing is said until the mail has lost a huge and potentially expensive law-suit!

It has been known for some time that members of the Palace staff were being paid to pass on any "interesting" tidbits

AS noted above Harry was adamant that he expected the press to try and do a Diana on his Mrs - he was right!

Harry knew ages ago that he has a snowball's chance in Hell of ever being required to plonk his arse on the throne and threw his efforts behind things like the Invictus Games for the disabled.

If Liz doesn't like what is happening now she has no-one to blame but herself, the Crown has been directed to her wishes for fifty-odd years, if she doesn't like it, she needs to change it, don't she, and not let her minions go blaming Harry and Megan for having the balls to say "Screw the lot of you! (and that includes his brother!)"

Owlswing

)O(

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I have not watched the interview as a combination of Oprah and Harry and Meghan moaning about their difficult lives as multi-millionaires during a pandemic would be quite nauseating for me. I think facing poverty is far far worse than facing casual racism or media vilification, unless your ego is particularly sensitive in which case I can see how media vilification could be a bigger problem than poverty. 

I am not surprised that there were a few comments about the colour of the baby's skin from within the palace - it is something different from the norm of pasty white and as a person with brown skin I do not have a problem with people remarking on my skin colour if I look different to them. It happens in brown families too - bring the white spouse  in and people comment on the colour of their skin and the baby's skin and yes many brown people would prefer a brown spouse or a brown baby who looks and acts like everyone else. Even if you don't have a preference I know my family make jokes about my half-white nephew and his cousins call him "white boy" and how he needs cutlery to eat rice and curry rather than using his hand like everyone else and he jokes about his colour himself. I have seen this replayed in many dark families who bring in a white outsider. Not that I think there is anything 'outsider' about someone who looks different but the reality is that many other people of all skin colours do consider someone who looks different as an 'outsider'.

I think Meghan was treated differently to Kate by the media because the media are vile and vileness /creating or magnifying conflict etc generates public interest because many people have a prurient interest in conflict. Meghan and Harry gave the media lots of ammunition with their woke opinions and lectures about being kind to others and protecting the climate while flying around on private jets and revelling in their wealth and privilege. Not surprisingly hypocrisy annoys people. Loud, opinionated hypocrites annoy people even more. If you express opinions expect to be vilified - it happens all over the media. Charles used to get vilified by the press for his opinions on all kinds of things - they made him out to be mad talking to shrubbery. The media published accusations about royals arranging the murder of Princess Diana. As a brown woman , I think being accused of the murder of the mother of your children or the mother of your grand children (in Philip's case) is far worse than being subjected to casual racism or casual misogyny.

I think people should be careful about whether they are examining this issue free from bias as there is a danger of being condescending and patronising to people with darker skin due to some sort of saviour complex such as the ridiculous idea that 'dark people are perpetual helpless victims who need saving from the powerful white man'.

What I find interesting is that Meghan miscarried a baby already, but instead of laying low and reducing stress during this pregnancy she is making herself a target for the media and other people's opinions. So much for their claims about wanting privacy and a life free from press intrusion. Could the interview not have waited until after the baby was safely delivered or were the optics of a pregnant Meghan making accusations of racism just too good to pass up for the self-promoting entitled couple? Or if they are playing a clever game to try to take on the media and staging it to use the pregnancy as a weapon in their battle with the media, then good luck to them - I hope they succeed. Always good to see the tabloid media lose.

[Harrowby Hall]

Kate Middleclass is a snooty parvenu.

Indeed. Isn't she the daughter of a (Air)bus driver?

[Aruntraveller]

Absolutely vicious anti-Royalty to the point of being (Left Wing/Communist) Republicans and yet you can see the disgusting nature of the treatment by the Press of Megan.

SO you agree it is disgusting treatment?

That's all my OP was about.

I was actually posting about the way the press operated.

You seem oddly conflicted on the Royal Family yourself:

If Liz doesn't like what is happening now she has no-one to blame but herself, the Crown has been directed to her wishes for fifty-odd years, if she doesn't like it, she needs to change it, don't she, and not let her minions go blaming Harry and Megan for having the balls to say "Screw the lot of you! (and that includes his brother!)"

[Nearly Sane]

Seen elsewhere 'The Royal Family - weapons of mass distraction'

[Aruntraveller]

Seen elsewhere 'The Royal Family - weapons of mass distraction'

 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The current strategy by the carefully staged and optics savvy Meghan and Harry was Meghan's sound-bite about racism being different from rudeness, when comparing the Press treatment of Kate with the treatment of Meghan. No doubt they will run with that because a
 lot of people like to jump on the racism bandwagon in the context of BLM. I think BLM is about real issues of harsher treatment by police and the judicial system, lack of opportunity to reasonably good schools, reasonably good homes in areas not populated by violent gangs of drug-dealers seeking to recruit children or drug-addicts robbing you for their next fix, access to opportunities to use your potential and skills to build a safe and secure life for yourself and your loved ones, access to healthcare etc. None of this applies to Meghan and her trust-fund husband. 

As far as I am concerned racism is just one form of rudeness. I totally reject the idea of exceptionalism people try to attach to racism because of white people being exceptionally good at the slave trade due to industrialising first thanks to the presence of huge amounts of coal deposits that could be mined, the sense of innovation brought about by historical events etc . If dark people in that era had had been exposed to similar events and circumstances and had the opportunity, they would have behaved in the same way as white people - increased melanin production in hotter climates does not cause a person to be more compassionate or kind (just have to look at the caste system to see that). An industrialised 'darkie' nation would have been equally ruthless in their pursuit of slavery - they were after all engaging in slavery themselves and were also the people capturing slaves to sell to white people.

I think expressing racism is just being rude. If we were kind and thoughtful we would not express racism. I reject Meghan's assertions trying to create a distinction based on race about the Press treatment of her compared to the Press rudeness to Kate. Some people - white and dark - are racist of course so no doubt there was some racism expressed by some people,, which is as rude as misogyny faced by Kate or misandry faced by Charles for not being the 'man' his father wanted him to be - or any of those other -ism terms.

[ekim]

I have not watched the interview as a combination of Oprah and Harry and Meghan moaning about their difficult lives as multi-millionaires during a pandemic would be quite nauseating for me. I think facing poverty is far far worse than facing casual racism or media vilification, unless your ego is particularly sensitive in which case I can see how media vilification could be a bigger problem than poverty. 

I am not surprised that there were a few comments about the colour of the baby's skin from within the palace - it is something different from the norm of pasty white and as a person with brown skin I do not have a problem with people remarking on my skin colour if I look different to them. It happens in brown families too - bring the white spouse  in and people comment on the colour of their skin and the baby's skin and yes many brown people would prefer a brown spouse or a brown baby who looks and acts like everyone else. Even if you don't have a preference I know my family make jokes about my half-white nephew and his cousins call him "white boy" and how he needs cutlery to eat rice and curry rather than using his hand like everyone else and he jokes about his colour himself. I have seen this replayed in many dark families who bring in a white outsider. Not that I think there is anything 'outsider' about someone who looks different but the reality is that many other people of all skin colours do consider someone who looks different as an 'outsider'.

I think Meghan was treated differently to Kate by the media because the media are vile and vileness /creating or magnifying conflict etc generates public interest because many people have a prurient interest in conflict. Meghan and Harry gave the media lots of ammunition with their woke opinions and lectures about being kind to others and protecting the climate while flying around on private jets and revelling in their wealth and privilege. Not surprisingly hypocrisy annoys people. Loud, opinionated hypocrites annoy people even more. If you express opinions expect to be vilified - it happens all over the media. Charles used to get vilified by the press for his opinions on all kinds of things - they made him out to be mad talking to shrubbery. The media published accusations about royals arranging the murder of Princess Diana. As a brown woman , I think being accused of the murder of the mother of your children or the mother of your grand children (in Philip's case) is far worse than being subjected to casual racism or casual misogyny.

I think people should be careful about whether they are examining this issue free from bias as there is a danger of being condescending and patronising to people with darker skin due to some sort of saviour complex such as the ridiculous idea that 'dark people are perpetual helpless victims who need saving from the powerful white man'.

What I find interesting is that Meghan miscarried a baby already, but instead of laying low and reducing stress during this pregnancy she is making herself a target for the media and other people's opinions. So much for their claims about wanting privacy and a life free from press intrusion. Could the interview not have waited until after the baby was safely delivered or were the optics of a pregnant Meghan making accusations of racism just too good to pass up for the self-promoting entitled couple? Or if they are playing a clever game to try to take on the media and staging it to use the pregnancy as a weapon in their battle with the media, then good luck to them - I hope they succeed. Always good to see the tabloid media lose.

Well said Gabriella.  I only saw a small part of the interview.  It looked well rehearsed to me with a scattering of well positioned anecdotes.  I wonder how much they were paid for the interview.  There's no business like show business.

[Gordon]

I'm sick of it, and the wall-to-wall coverage.

It is hard to know which is worse: an antiquated and dysfunctional institution/family whose continued presence in current society is an anachronism (I say just get rid) or the sections of the press that plays along with seeing these people as notable celebrities, often sycophantically, just because their birth family (as opposed to them having traits worth celebrating) while also seeking to undermine them - in combination, as we now see, this is an unpleasant, boring and voyeuristic distraction.

Racism is a serious issue, of course, but that too will get played down in the rush to rescue the reputations of the reprehensible.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm sick of it, and the wall-to-wall coverage.

It is hard to know which is worse: an antiquated and dysfunctional institution/family whose continued presence in current society is an anachronism (I say just get rid) or the sections of the press that plays along with seeing these people as notable celebrities, often sycophantically, just because their birth family (as opposed to them having traits worth celebrating) while also seeking to undermine them - in combination, as we now see, this is an unpleasant, boring and voyeuristic distraction.

Racism is a serious issue, of course, but that too will get played down in the rush to rescue the reputations of the reprehensible.   

Yes I thought much as you do until I watched the interview. What was described was a damning indictment not only of institutions but of a fallen, embittered and confused status of increasingly secular Britain which increasingly tolerates these institutions for without national complicity these atrocious behaviours and attitudes would not prevail.

[Anchorman]

Seen elsewhere 'The Royal Family - weapons of mass distraction'

   



Brilliant¬!

[Aruntraveller]

Yes I thought much as you do until I watched the interview. What was described was a damning indictment not only of institutions but of a fallen, embittered and confused status of increasingly secular Britain which increasingly tolerates these institutions for without national complicity these atrocious behaviours and attitudes would not prevail.

Are you saying more religious countries aren't racist?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are you saying more religious countries aren't racist?

No I am just flagging up that for all the good things attributed to an increasingly secular Britain there are some atrocious attitudes and behaviours which seem to be increasing too.

[Aruntraveller]

No I am just flagging up that for all the good things attributed to an increasingly secular Britain there are some atrocious attitudes and behaviours which seem to be increasing too.

So what is your solution, if you are saying that more religious countries can be just as racist?

What do we do? What steps do we take? How do we ameliorate these "atrocious attitudes and behaviours"?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Well said Gabriella.  I only saw a small part of the interview.  It looked well rehearsed to me with a scattering of well positioned anecdotes.  I wonder how much they were paid for the interview.  There's no business like show business.

Thanks and agree about it being well-rehearsed - she is an actress - there were probably many run-throughs in front of a mirror and audience, focusing on body language, experimenting with make-up, clothes, lighting etc. to appear as natural and un-staged as possible. Completely show-business.

I have been avoiding the TV because it keeps playing clips. Unfortunately this morning the radio in the car played a few soundbites. It's all self-serving rubbish with Meghan being royal - so agreeing with the institution - just long enough to become more marketable and then moving to the US to sell the brand to the media in a way that generates the most coverage. Being interviewed while pregnant, ticked the mental health box in the interview, played the race card, the adversary needs to be the Royal Family because that's better drama than it being just the press. Hopefully the Royal Family won't respond to this rubbish during a pandemic.

It might turn into a similar situation to the Markle relatives sniping from the side-lines in an increasingly irrational manner to make money and also because they are upset about being ignored. Meghan and Harry will give interviews to promote themselves and because they want attention and don't like being ignored.

 

[Aruntraveller]

I think expressing racism is just being rude. If we were kind and thoughtful we would not express racism.

Yet the outcomes from rudeness and racism are different in many cases.

People are often rude to me, doesn't affect me that much.

People can be racist and it can affect your job prospects, and in some tragic cases your life. I think there is a quantitative difference.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So what is your solution, if you are saying that more religious countries can be just as racist?

What do we do? What steps do we take? How do we ameliorate these "atrocious attitudes and behaviours"?

People need to be a bit more specific about naming problems rather than Caricaturing and blaming groups on mass for some vague supposed offence against something equally vague which is what is happening here where a woke, foreign, woman, mixed race has somehow bewitched our most royal family rather than just shutting up and being dutiful. If you ask people to be more specific they can't because it's a composite of tabloid guff, them taking out there own worst impulses and avoidance behaviour for actually resolving their own mistreatment by these institutions. Let us remember that it was Her Majesty who signed Johnson's illegal order for prorogation of Parliament.

Now to actually get to your point. Answer; name what the problems are and keep naming them. Explore oneself and encourage others to at the grass roots level.

Maybe it starts with dealing with the plank in your own eye, to wax biblically.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yet the outcomes from rudeness and racism are different in many cases.

People are often rude to me, doesn't affect me that much.

People can be racist and it can affect your job prospects, and in some tragic cases your life. I think there is a quantitative difference.

Agreed in those situations where it does affect your job prospects etc.

I meant in the specific case of Meghan and Kate. Totally agree in the situation where people are not leading rich, privileged lifestyles, hence I mentioned how BLM is an important issue - but Meghan is just jumping on the bandwagon to raise the issue as part of a strategy to promote her brand to make money.

People have been racist to me and rude to me - where it hasn't affected my job prospects or endangered my life, the racism has no more effect than any other type of insults - like you it doesn't affect me that much.

I think I would be more upset by people undermining my intelligence or my ability to be financially independent or if they suggested I thought I needed a Royal husband for me to have value. So for example the "Waity Katy" insults or the comments about Kate being a commoner or the daughter of a former air stewardess or her mother engineering the marriage seem as bad as to me as any racism Meghan is alleging she faced.

 

[Anchorman]

Yes I thought much as you do until I watched the interview. What was described was a damning indictment not only of institutions but of a fallen, embittered and confused status of increasingly secular Britain which increasingly tolerates these institutions for without national complicity these atrocious behaviours and attitudes would not prevail.

Secular? The royals, for whom I have no loyalty whatsoever, have no authority in any denomination in these islands saving the CofE. They've had no authority in any matter of religion in Scotland since Charles I tried and failed to interfere in 1638.

[Spud]

It turns out that what she said about their children not being given the title Prince or Princess being decided specifically for them, is incorrect. It was already established that only the children of the first in line would be given those titles. (Interested to hear if anyone knows otherwise?).

[ProfessorDavey]

It turns out that what she said about their children not being given the title Prince or Princess being decided specifically for them, is incorrect. It was already established that only the children of the first in line would be given those titles. (Interested to hear if anyone knows otherwise?).

Err - Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie - they aren't the children of the first in line to the throne.

[Spud]

Err - Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie - they aren't the children of the first in line to the throne.

I was just thinking that...