Author Topic: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'  (Read 5552 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2021, 02:08:43 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
The prophet did not set fire to her house for showing disrespect,...

That was big of him. WTF? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2021, 02:09:26 PM »
Gabriella,

Why would it need to be investigated?
Generally when a teacher is suspended there will be an investigation as part of disciplinary procedures. Investigation is necessary so people don't jump to conclusions without being aware of the facts.

Quote
Yes – it’s “ok” to show all such images. Why? Because they exist as artefacts that illustrate various beliefs and attitudes that have existed. Showing them to pupils isn’t agreeing with them – it’s explaining what people have believed and argued for and how they have portrayed those things.
The current cancel culture and trigger warnings etc that seems to be taking hold in various educational institutions appears to disagree with you.       

Quote
It’s more than ok – it’s necessary. Someone’s right not to be offended (assuming for now there even is such a right) is overwhelmingly less important than the right to free speech. For reasons that should be obvious we should limit freedom of speech only in vanishingly rare cases, and “I’m offended by that” is not one of those cases. Ever.   
See above
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2021, 02:12:51 PM »
Gabriella,

That was big of him. WTF?
Glad you approve. I suggest you read the link and comment on the whole article instead of picking one line to comment on if you want any further responses from me to your posts on this. On the other hand if you just want to post one-liners for your own amusement, carry on.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2021, 02:19:11 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Generally when a teacher is suspended there will be an investigation as part of disciplinary procedures. Investigation is necessary so people don't jump to conclusions without being aware of the facts.

But being suspended is itself the a priori decision that matters here. Was there any evidence that s/he broke the law or their contractual obligations to their employer? If not, why go straight to suspension if not only for concern about the reactions of people who felt “offended”. As Stephen Fry noted, the correct response to “but I’m offended by that” is, “so f***ing what?” More politely, Christopher Hitchens’s response to the same objection was, “I’m still waiting for you to make an argument”.         

Quote
The current cancel culture and trigger warnings etc that seems to be taking hold in various educational institutions appears to disagree with you.

See Stephen Fry above.       

Quote
See above

Right back acha.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2021, 02:20:28 PM »

Glad you approve. I suggest you read the link and comment on the whole article instead of picking one line to comment on if you want any further responses from me to your posts on this. On the other hand, if you just want to post one-liners for your own amusement, carry on.


You are, in your comment above, demonstrating just how thin-skinned Muslims can be!

Owlswing

)O(

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2021, 02:22:43 PM »
Why is it that the second the Muslims announce that they are offended about something everyone involved starts to run around doing absolutely everything they can think of to stop the protests without thought of any other aspects of the case?

I am NOT saying that what the teacher did was right, wrong, or just plain stupid, but the speed with which their protest resulted in the teacher's suspension (and possible dismissal) was lightning fast!

Owlswing

)O(
It's not just when Muslims get offended. Have you seen cancel culture in action? People and their families (including their children) and associates and anyone who defends a person's free speech get bombarded with hundreds of death threats via social media by the "liberal extremists".
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2021, 02:23:08 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
Glad you approve. I suggest you read the link and comment on the whole article instead of picking one line to comment on if you want any further responses from me to your posts on this. On the other hand if you just want to post one-liners for your own amusement, carry on.

You quoted approvingly Mohammed (the "prophet" bit is just your unevidenced faith belief) for not burning down a dying woman's house. All you're telling us with this story is what he wasn't a sociopath. Like I said: big of him. Not much to celebrate though is it.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2021, 02:24:38 PM »
You are, in your comment above, demonstrating just how thin-skinned Muslims can be!

Owlswing

)O(
By telling BHS to carry on if he wants to make one-liner posts on here, thereby exercising his freedom of speech? How is that thin-skinned? Looking forward to an explanation of how you joined the dots there.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2021, 02:25:58 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
It's not just when Muslims get offended. Have you seen cancel culture in action? People and their families (including their children) and associates and anyone who defends a person's free speech get bombarded with hundreds of death threats via social media by the "liberal extremists".

So do you or don't you agree that the right to freedom is speech is overwhelmingly more important than the right not to be offended?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2021, 02:26:48 PM »
Gabriella,

You quoted approvingly Mohammed (the "prophet" bit is just your unevidenced faith belief) for not burning down a dying woman's house. All you're telling us with this story is what he wasn't a sociopath. Like I said: big of him. Not much to celebrate though is it.
I am not quoting anything approvingly - I am just quoting from a link to an essay on Obama and resolving conflict. The "approvingly" is just your unevidenced belief.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2021, 02:29:36 PM »
Gabriella,

So do you or don't you agree that the right to freedom is speech is overwhelmingly more important than the right not to be offended?
I suggest you read my posts. I have a nuanced argument. Reducing your thoughts on complex issues to one liner generalised principles is your style of posting, not mine.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2021, 02:37:49 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
I suggest you read my posts. I have a nuanced argument. Reducing your thoughts on complex issues to one liner generalised principles is your style of posting, not mine.

Actually I suggest you read your own post. Here in fact:

"I don't think there is anything wrong with people voicing their feelings about a subject in a respectful constructive way. Presumably we are not advocating that Muslims are not allowed to express their feelings or hurt or displeasure in constructive, law-abiding ways are we? My husband said that at our local mosque, the Friday sermon was that we may feel hurt by the pictures because of our love for Prophet Mohamed but the Sunnah (the way Prophet Mohamed behaved that Muslims try to emulate) is to show mercy, humility.

The Prophet faced many insults when he started preaching and the traditional sayings and stories I have heard is that he did not react with anger and hatred.

For example the traditional story many Muslims tell about the old lady who used to throw garbage at the prophet Mohammed every day, as he passed on his way to the mosque. One day, the lady didn't come out to throw the garbage. The prophet`s response was to knock at her door and ask for her. When he came to know that the old lady was ill and lying in bed, he helped her out in the house. The prophet did not set fire to her house for showing disrespect, he looked after her.
"

You're a muslim. You tell us that muslims "try to emulate" the behaviour of "the prophet". You quoted a story about this prophet not burning down a dying woman's house as an example of the behaviour you should emulate.

I merely suggested that not behaving like a sociopath isn't a particularly high bar for behaviours you think you should emulate. 
     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2021, 02:44:52 PM »
Gabriella,

Actually I suggest you read your own post. Here in fact:

"I don't think there is anything wrong with people voicing their feelings about a subject in a respectful constructive way. Presumably we are not advocating that Muslims are not allowed to express their feelings or hurt or displeasure in constructive, law-abiding ways are we? My husband said that at our local mosque, the Friday sermon was that we may feel hurt by the pictures because of our love for Prophet Mohamed but the Sunnah (the way Prophet Mohamed behaved that Muslims try to emulate) is to show mercy, humility.

The Prophet faced many insults when he started preaching and the traditional sayings and stories I have heard is that he did not react with anger and hatred.

For example the traditional story many Muslims tell about the old lady who used to throw garbage at the prophet Mohammed every day, as he passed on his way to the mosque. One day, the lady didn't come out to throw the garbage. The prophet`s response was to knock at her door and ask for her. When he came to know that the old lady was ill and lying in bed, he helped her out in the house. The prophet did not set fire to her house for showing disrespect, he looked after her.
"

You're a muslim. You tell us that muslims "try to emulate" the behaviour of "the prophet". You quoted a story about this prophet not burning down a dying woman's house as an example of the behaviour you should emulate.

I merely suggested that not behaving like a sociopath isn't a particularly high bar for behaviours you think you should emulate. 
   
As I said before, I suggest you read the link I quoted from so you know the context before posting rather than jumping to conclusions.

Not burning down the house is not part of the traditional story. Not burning down the house is in reference to the attack on the US Diplomatic Consulate in Benghazi. The attackers set fire to it.

Diplomatic Security Service Special Agent Scott Strickland secured Stevens and Sean Smith, an information management officer, in the main building's safe haven.[78][79] The rest of the agents left to retrieve their weapons and tried to return to the main building.[78] The attackers entered the main building and attempted to enter the safe haven.[76] They then spread diesel fuel in the room and set fires.[76][78] Stevens, Smith, and Strickland moved to the nearby bathroom, but then decided to leave the safe haven after being overcome by smoke.[79] Strickland exited through the window, but Stevens and Smith did not follow him. Strickland returned several times but could not find them in the smoke; he went up to the roof and radioed other agents.[79] Three agents returned to the main building in an armored vehicle, searched the building and found Smith's body, but not Stevens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack

Just so we're clear as you seem a bit confused by how a debate forum works  - by quoting this link I am not approving of setting fire to buildings or murdering diplomats.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2021, 02:56:39 PM »
Gabriella,

But being suspended is itself the a priori decision that matters here. Was there any evidence that s/he broke the law or their contractual obligations to their employer? If not, why go straight to suspension if not only for concern about the reactions of people who felt “offended”. As Stephen Fry noted, the correct response to “but I’m offended by that” is, “so f***ing what?” More politely, Christopher Hitchens’s response to the same objection was, “I’m still waiting for you to make an argument”.
You'll have to take that up with the school - they made the decision to suspend in accordance with their own internal policies and disciplinary procedures.

Quote
See Stephen Fry above.       

Right back acha.
Ok I'll get the popcorn out to watch Stephen Fry vs woke cancel culture. I think Stephen Fry is entertaining and enjoy watching him on TV. My point was that while woke culture appears to be prevailing in educational institutions it's a no-brainer for some Muslims to use it to their advantage.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2021, 02:58:53 PM »
Gabriella,

Actually I cut and pasted the wrong quote from you to which I was replying. My apologies: I actually meant to quote this one:

Quote
I am not quoting anything approvingly - I am just quoting from a link to an essay on Obama and resolving conflict. The "approvingly" is just your unevidenced belief.

My reply showed that you were quoting the story approvingly (unless you think behaviours you should “emulate” has some other meaning than “approvingly”?).

As for the rest:

Quote
As I said before, I suggest you read the link I quoted from so you know the context before posting rather than jumping to conclusions.

Not burning down the house is not part of the traditional story. Not burning down the house is in reference to the attack on the US Diplomatic Consulate in Benghazi. The attackers set fire to it.

Diplomatic Security Service Special Agent Scott Strickland secured Stevens and Sean Smith, an information management officer, in the main building's safe haven.[78][79] The rest of the agents left to retrieve their weapons and tried to return to the main building.[78] The attackers entered the main building and attempted to enter the safe haven.[76] They then spread diesel fuel in the room and set fires.[76][78] Stevens, Smith, and Strickland moved to the nearby bathroom, but then decided to leave the safe haven after being overcome by smoke.[79] Strickland exited through the window, but Stevens and Smith did not follow him. Strickland returned several times but could not find them in the smoke; he went up to the roof and radioed other agents.[79] Three agents returned to the main building in an armored vehicle, searched the building and found Smith's body, but not Stevens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack

Just so we're clear as you seem a bit confused by how a debate forum works  - by quoting this link I am not approving of setting fire to buildings or murdering diplomats.

Again, try reading your Reply 24 again. Here it is in full:

Quote
Difficult to know what happened at the school until there is some kind of facts coming out. In the case of Sam Paty, the teacher beheaded in France, it turns out that the girl who told her parents what Sam Paty said and did and showed in the classroom in relation to pictures of Prophet Mohamed, wasn't actually in the classroom at the time and lied to her father.

Going by the MCB statement, they are focusing on the Hebdo image being offensive.

Other Muslims who get a media voice may be stating for the record that they think all images of Prophet Mohamed are offensive. I can understand why they thought it makes sense to take this opportunity to state how they feel if they have just been given a public platform. Of course it is up to other people whether they choose to respect their feelings or not. A vocal noisy minority stating that all Muslims feel this way is classic tactics to try to bolster their argument - I don't see any evidence that all Muslims think the correct response to this incident is to noisily protest in front of a school rather than through dialogue.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people voicing their feelings about a subject in a respectful constructive way. Presumably we are not advocating that Muslims are not allowed to express their feelings or hurt or displeasure in constructive, law-abiding ways are we? My husband said that at our local mosque, the Friday sermon was that we may feel hurt by the pictures because of our love for Prophet Mohamed but the Sunnah (the way Prophet Mohamed behaved that Muslims try to emulate) is to show mercy, humility.

The Prophet faced many insults when he started preaching and the traditional sayings and stories I have heard is that he did not react with anger and hatred.

For example the traditional story many Muslims tell about the old lady who used to throw garbage at the prophet Mohammed every day, as he passed on his way to the mosque. One day, the lady didn't come out to throw the garbage. The prophet`s response was to knock at her door and ask for her. When he came to know that the old lady was ill and lying in bed, he helped her out in the house. The prophet did not set fire to her house for showing disrespect, he looked after her.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/old-lady-and-prophet/

If you want to talk about the episode in Benghazi referenced in the link that’s fine but it was your use of the story that I replied to (ie, the "emulate" part), not the reference someone else you’d linked it to had also made to it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 03:05:53 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2021, 03:04:40 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
You'll have to take that up with the school - they made the decision to suspend in accordance with their own internal policies and disciplinary procedures.

No, I'm taking it up with you because you referenced it ("Generally when a teacher is suspended there will be an investigation as part of disciplinary procedures. Investigation is necessary so people don't jump to conclusions without being aware of the facts"). 

Quote
Ok I'll get the popcorn out to watch Stephen Fry vs woke cancel culture. I think Stephen Fry is entertaining and enjoy watching him on TV. My point was that while woke culture appears to be prevailing in educational institutions it's a no-brainer for some Muslims to use it to their advantage.

You seem to have an odd fixation with "woke" culture (whatever that means). I'm asking you about principles though: do you agree that the right to freedom of speech is always more important than the right not to be offended? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2021, 03:08:25 PM »
Gabriella,

Actually I cut and pasted the wrong quote from you to which I was replying. My apologies: I actually meant to quote this one:

My reply showed that you were quoting the story approvingly (unless you think behaviours you should “emulate” has some other meaning than “approvingly”?).

As for the rest:

Again, try reading your Reply 24 again. Here it is in full:

If you want to talk about the episode in Benghazi referenced in the link that’s fine but it was your use of the story that I was replied to, not the reference someone else you’d linked it to had made to it.
My line about emulating was in reference to not getting angry and showing kindness and tolerance in the face of insults - having garbage thrown at you.

My quote was not of the traditional story. My quote was of the article - hence I linked to the article to show that my bit in italics is from an article. If you opened the link it would have immediately become clear that the author was talking about Benghazi. The author's use of the story was to add on the line about not burning down the house in reference to the attack on the Benghazi consulate.

If someone tells you to read an article for clarification it's probably best just to read the article if you actually care about understanding someone else's perspective. On the other hand, if you're just on here to deliver one-liners for your own amusement, carry on.   

Hence I said read the link when you queried the line about burning down the house. The link was talking about the attack on Benghazi. I assumed that people would remember that the attackers set fire to the consulate.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 03:19:42 PM by Violent Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2021, 03:18:07 PM »
Gabriella,

No, I'm taking it up with you because you referenced it ("Generally when a teacher is suspended there will be an investigation as part of disciplinary procedures. Investigation is necessary so people don't jump to conclusions without being aware of the facts"). 
As I said it's the school's policy, not mine. I have no idea why they suspend first and investigate later but it seems to be the process these days.

Quote
You seem to have an odd fixation with "woke" culture (whatever that means). I'm asking you about principles though: do you agree that the right to freedom of speech is always more important than the right not to be offended?
You seem to have an odd fixation with my use of the word "woke".

I think in the real world it depends on the situation and potential consequences. Tact, diplomacy, protecting bigger interests will influence the decision on a case by case basis I imagine. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour as the saying goes.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2021, 04:03:30 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
My line about emulating was in reference to not getting angry and showing kindness and tolerance in the face of insults - having garbage thrown at you.

And you seem to think that not burning down a dying woman’s house for doing that was some kind of indicator of that kindness and tolerance. It isn’t. It just means that you’re not a sociopath.

Quote
My quote was not of the traditional story. My quote was of the article - hence I linked to the article to show that my bit in italics is from an article. If you opened the link it would have immediately become clear that the author was talking about Benghazi. The author's use of the story was to add on the line about not burning down the house in reference to the attack on the Benghazi consulate.

Again, read what you actually said about your husband, the mosque, what you’d “heard” about Mohammed and the story about that that you quoted. Either the story in the final paragraph had relevance to all that or it didn't. You choose.

You also posted a link to an article in which the same story was quoted – that too may or not have merit in its own right but it’s a different use of the same story.

In any case, if you’re now saying that someone not burning down a dying woman’s house in response to her throwing rubbish at him isn’t a good indicator of his showing “mercy, humility” after all then I’d stick with that position if I were you.     

Quote
If someone tells you to read an article for clarification it's probably best just to read the article if you actually care about understanding someone else's perspective. On the other hand, if you're just on here to deliver one-liners for your own amusement, carry on.   

Hence I said read the link when you queried the line about burning down the house. The link was talking about the attack on Benghazi. I assumed that people would remember that the attackers set fire to the consulate.

Wrong again – see above.


Quote
As I said it's the school's policy, not mine. I have no idea why they suspend first and investigate later but it seems to be the process these days.

Why do you think there was a “policy” involved rather than just concern at the potentially violent responses of some people who felt “offended”?

Quote
You seem to have an odd fixation with my use of the word "woke".

Evasion noted.

Quote
I think in the real world it depends on the situation and potential consequences. Tact, diplomacy, protecting bigger interests will influence the decision on a case by case basis I imagine. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour as the saying goes.

I couldn’t disagree more. Freedom of speech is fundamentally, vitally important to a free society. Tact, diplomacy etc are tactical considerations but the moment you limit freedom of speech for fear that others could be offended by its exercise is the moment you start to lose that freedom. Censorship has always been the handmaiden of despots and dictators and fascists who rely on it to extinguish opposition.

And you know which freedom of speech cases should be defended the most? Yep, the hard ones. Take David Irving’s holocaust denial for example – some countries ban that (Austria I think does) but it was when his arguments were heard in open court and found to be untrue that he was shown to be wrong. And you know who should be among the most vociferous defendants of the right of a teacher to use the cartoons in the classroom? Yep, the same muslims who are waving banners outside the school demanding “justice”.

You can join the dots to the answer why for yourself but if Muslims want to live in a society in which they are free to express their views, then the last thing they should be advocating I’d have thought is limits placed on freedom of speech because one day exactly the same grounds could be used against them. “You want to preach sermons about Mohammed? Sorry, but that offends me so it’s banned...”.

Short version: be very, very careful about what you wish for.         
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 04:31:00 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2021, 04:46:51 PM »
<quote>a society in which they are free to express their views, then the last thing they should be advocating I’d have thought is limits placed on freedom of speech </quote>

I think the problem with the term 'freedom of speech' is similar to that expression debated elsewhere 'free will'.  It is often determined by a desire rather than being a free expression.  It can be an expression of hatred and used to promote violence as in Bristol lately with chants of 'Kill the Bill', Kill the Bill'.  Would it be wise to accede to paedophiles having free speech to groom small children?  It is not always used as an expression of views, there is often a destructive emotional driving force.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2021, 04:51:24 PM »
ekim,

Quote
I think the problem with the term 'freedom of speech' is similar to that expression debated elsewhere 'free will'.  It is often determined by a desire rather than being a free expression.  It can be an expression of hatred and used to promote violence as in Bristol lately with chants of 'Kill the Bill', Kill the Bill'.  Would it be wise to accede to paedophiles having free speech to groom small children?  It is not always used as an expression of views, there is often a destructive emotional driving force.

Yes there are (and should be) some exceptions. My point though is that exceptions to the principle should be very rare cases, and that "but I'm offended by that" is never one of those cases. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7958
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2021, 04:53:15 PM »
<quote>a society in which they are free to express their views, then the last thing they should be advocating I’d have thought is limits placed on freedom of speech </quote>

I think the problem with the term 'freedom of speech' is similar to that expression debated elsewhere 'free will'.  It is often determined by a desire rather than being a free expression.  It can be an expression of hatred and used to promote violence as in Bristol lately with chants of 'Kill the Bill', Kill the Bill'.  Would it be wise to accede to paedophiles having free speech to groom small children?  It is not always used as an expression of views, there is often a destructive emotional driving force.

Well said, I agree with you. At one time paedophiles were given freedom of speech through the paedophile information exchange, expressing their right to have sex with children!  >:( That evil organisation was banned in the 80s.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2021, 05:08:08 PM »
Gabriella,

And you seem to think that not burning down a dying woman’s house for doing that was some kind of indicator of that kindness and tolerance. It isn’t. It just means that you’re not a sociopath.
No that's just your unevidenced belief that I "seem" to think that....

What's clear is that when you queried the line about the fire I told you to read the link - you didn't and hence you misunderstood the reference to Benghazi because you did not follow up on my advice. Instead of accepting my explanation of the reference to Benghazi you seem to want to keep restating your misunderstanding and confusion over and over again despite my explanation and my reference to the link. That's your call if you want to keep referring to your misunderstanding despite being directed to read the link.


Quote
Why do you think there was a “policy” involved rather than just concern at the potentially violent responses of some people who felt “offended”?
Do you have any facts to go with your speculation?

Quote
Evasion noted.
What evasion? I said what I think about free speech v offending people. I think it depends on the situation.

Quote
I couldn’t disagree more. Freedom of speech is fundamentally, vitally important to a free society. Tact, diplomacy etc are tactical considerations but the moment you limit freedom of speech for fear that others could be offended by its exercise is the moment you start to lose that freedom. Censorship has always been the handmaiden of despots and dictators and fascists who rely on it to extinguish opposition.

And you know which freedom of speech cases should be defended the most? Yep, the hard ones. Take David Irving’s holocaust denial for example – some countries ban that (Austria I think does) but it was when his arguments were heard in open court and found to be untrue that he was shown to be wrong. And you know who should be among the most vociferous defendants of the right of a teacher to use the cartoons in the classroom? Yep, the same muslims who are waving banners outside the school demanding “justice”.

You can join the dots to the answer why for yourself but if Muslims want to live in a society in which they are free to express their views, then the last thing they should be advocating I’d have thought is limits placed on freedom of speech because one day exactly the same grounds could be used again them. “You want to preach sermons about Mohammed? Sorry, but that offends me so it’s banned...”.

Short version: be very, very careful about what you wish for.       
I agree with free speech but disagree it is some sort of absolute blanket right to cause offence. The reason why is because I think society is more than just principles at an abstract intellectual level. Yes you need free speech to fight despots. However, on a practical level we are not just concerned about fighting despots. As we have seen in many situations part of the norms we develop for interaction involves regulating people's behaviour in order for people to live together fairly peacefully so that our energies can be spent collaborating to defend ourselves against things like viruses rather than fighting each other.

This isn't just about Muslims but all groups in society. As I have stated before on here and on many other threads, I think that lots of people have beliefs about intangibles and abstract ideas. Some may feel these ideas are important or sacred to them. So this is not just about a religious belief.

Hence my answer is I can't list every situation in which I think people should be free to view Hebdo cartoons or any other offensive material or speak offensively, but I think it is possible that the cartoons are not the right material for the classroom if one goal is collaboration and cooperation rather than marginalising people in a classroom. That might not be an important consideration, but again you come up against other people living in your community who have a different view. The arguments I have heard is that other groups are protected from being offended if they are vocal enough and lobby enough to protect their interests so some vocal members of the Muslim community are more than happy to jump on that bandwagon when it might work in their favour.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2021, 05:26:24 PM »
Gabriella,

Quote
No that's just your unevidenced belief that I "seem" to think that....

“Emulate” was your word, not mine. If you now want to resile from that, then do so.

Quote
What's clear is that when you queried the line about the fire I told you to read the link - you didn't and hence you misunderstood the reference to Benghazi because you did not follow up on my advice. Instead of accepting my explanation of the reference to Benghazi you seem to want to keep restating your misunderstanding and confusion over and over again despite my explanation and my reference to the link. That's your call if you want to keep referring to your misunderstanding despite being directed to read the link.

No, what’s clear is that you made a series of points culminating in a story about Mohammed not burning down someone’s house. You then posted a link to an article that referenced the same story. What you’re trying to do now is to dissociate the story paragraph from the paragraphs that preceded it, and to claim instead that it should be read only in the context of the link that followed it. If that had actually been your intention though you’d have needed to say something like, “anyway, entirely unrelated to anything I’ve just said here’s a story with a link after it and you should follow the link to know why I’ve written out the story here”.

Doesn’t wash does it.

Quote
Do you have any facts to go with your speculation?

The use of a “?” at the end of a sentence tells you that the sentence is a question, not a speculation.

Quote
What evasion? I said what I think about free speech v offending people. I think it depends on the situation.

The “fixation on woke” comment evasion.

Quote
I agree with free speech but disagree it is some sort of absolute blanket right to cause offence. The reason why is because I think society is more than just principles at an abstract intellectual level. Yes you need free speech to fight despots. However, on a practical level we are not just concerned about fighting despots. As we have seen in many situations part of the norms we develop for interaction involves regulating people's behaviour in order for people to live together fairly peacefully so that our energies can be spent collaborating to defend ourselves against things like viruses rather than fighting each other.

You’re not getting it. Sometimes the right to freedom of speech conflicts with the “right” not to be offended. It should be an “absolute blanket” in such cases that the former should prevail over the latter.

Do you agree?     

Quote
This isn't just about Muslims but all groups in society. As I have stated before on here and on many other threads, I think that lots of people have beliefs about intangibles and abstract ideas. Some may feel these ideas are important or sacred to them. So this is not just about a religious belief.

No-one said otherwise.

Quote
Hence my answer is I can't list every situation in which I think people should be free to view Hebdo cartoons or any other offensive material or speak offensively, but I think it is possible that the cartoons are not the right material for the classroom if one goal is collaboration and cooperation rather than marginalising people in a classroom. That might not be an important consideration, but again you come up against other people living in your community who have a different view. The arguments I have heard is that other groups are protected from being offended if they are vocal enough and lobby enough to protect their interests so some vocal members of the Muslim community are more than happy to jump on that bandwagon when it might work in their favour.

That “hence” is a non sequitur. Either you think that the right to freedom of speech should always outweigh the right not to be offended, or you don’t.

Which is it?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Batley Grammar School: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2021, 05:58:21 PM »
Gabriella,

“Emulate” was your word, not mine. If you now want to resile from that, then do so.

No, what’s clear is that you made a series of points culminating in a story about Mohammed not burning down someone’s house. You then posted a link to an article that referenced the same story. What you’re trying to do now is to dissociate the story paragraph from the paragraphs that preceded it, and to claim instead that it should be read only in the context of the link that followed it. If that had actually been your intention though you’d have needed to say something like, “anyway, entirely unrelated to anything I’ve just said here’s a story with a link after it and you should follow the link to know why I’ve written out the story here”.

Doesn’t wash does it.
No what is clear is that when you queried the line about the fire I told you to read the link and you either did not read it or you were not clued up enough to make the link to the fire in Benghazi. Instead of asking for further clarification you continued on with one of your usual blundering flights of fancy and you still seem to be firmly stuck on that path of misunderstanding despite having been referred to the link and despite having the Benghazi reference explained to you. Not surprisingly (and this has been pointed out to you before) people ignore you telling them how to post and what they should have written...but keep persevering if you want.

Quote
The use of a “?” at the end of a sentence tells you that the sentence is a question, not a speculation.
I suggest any questions you have about the suspension you direct to the school. The only information I have is what is in the media - the teacher was suspended by the school. We have not been informed how that decision was reached or why.

Quote
The “fixation on woke” comment evasion.
An evasion of what?

Quote
You’re not getting it. Sometimes the right to freedom of speech conflicts with the “right” not to be offended. It should be an “absolute blanket” in such cases that the former should prevail over the latter.

Do you agree?
Clearly you're not getting it. I repeat - I agree with free speech but disagree it is some sort of absolute blanket right to cause offence.

Quote
That “hence” is a non sequitur. Either you think that the right to freedom of speech should always outweigh the right not to be offended, or you don’t.

Which is it?
Already asked and answered.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi