Happy Easter

[ProfessorDavey]

... but, based as it is on the moveable feast of Passover - hence the coloquial name - it's about as Christian as you get.

Err, what planet are you on - the timing of Easter is based on a Jewish (not a Christian) festival, and the dates are based on both the equinox and the lunar calendar - you cannot get more pagan if you tried.

So you can argue the toss as to whether the 'moveable' nature of the feast is originally Jewish or pagan, but it isn't originally Christian at all.

Hey, ho - another case of a Christian lacking perspective - some things don't change.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't think it should be of any surprise to anyone that pagan and Christian feasts often overlap.

True - throughout history new cultures and religions have usurped older traditions and ceremonies into their own as a way of persuading (often reluctant) peoples to convert.

The pagans worshipped creation. Christians, on the other hand, worship the One who made creation. Creation points to the One who made it.

Oh dear - and you were doing so well. I think that pagans celebrated nature and the natural world/forces etc, with deities and nature effectively one and the same. This is a world away from the notion of a monotheisitic god 'creating' the universe. And of course your assertion of the One who made creation is just that, an assertion, and one based on not a scrap of evidence. By contrast when you look around you and see spring bursting forth in all its glory you are seeing something that is both real and true - no assertions, faith or belief required.

[ad_orientem]

Never understood why non-Christians get themselves in fits over this.

[Owlswing]

I don't think it should be of any surprise to anyone that pagan and Christian feasts often overlap. The pagans worshipped creation. Christians, on the other hand, worship the One who made creation. Creation points to the One who made it.

The Christians changed Pagan festivals by hijacking them.

Easter = Ostara - not such a great jump is it. The Winter Solstice becomes Christmas by moving Christ's (supposed) birth etc etc etc! Churches were erected at places where pagan festivals were celebrated. In some old churches you can, if you know where to look find pagan symbols carefully hidden by the builders who were not amused by the hijacking.

There is a church in East London which has a circular window with the Pagan Pentacle within it.

Owlswing

)O(

[ProfessorDavey]

Never understood why non-Christians get themselves in fits over this.

I guess it is merely a response to Christians getting themselves in fits, with their condescending claims of the real meaning of Christmas and the real meaning of Easter.

The reality is that both Christmas and Easter are festivals that have multiple origins and multiple meanings - hence people celebrate them in different ways and there is no real meaning, as they mean different things to different people.

[Anchorman]

The Christians changed Pagan festivals by hijacking them.

Easter = Ostara - not such a great jump is it. The Winter Solstice becomes Christmas by moving Christ's (supposed) birth etc etc etc! Churches were erected at places where pagan festivals were celebrated. In some old churches you can, if you know where to look find pagan symbols carefully hidden by the builders who were not amused by the hijacking.

There is a church in East London which has a circular window with the Pagan Pentacle within it.

Owlswing

)O(   

The first Christians didn't 'hijack' pagan festivals; they simply used the Jewish Passover as the template for the celebration of Easter.
Later denominations - Roman, Orthodox, whatever, may have messed it up a bit, but the fact remains that the origins of the Christian celebration of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus are grounded in Judaism - and rightly so - rather than Paganism. The flummery of rabbits/hares and the rest are add ons and neither here nor there.

[Owlswing]

The first Christians didn't 'hijack' pagan festivals; they simply used the Jewish Passover as the template for the celebration of Easter.
Later denominations - Roman, Orthodox, whatever, may have messed it up a bit, but the fact remains that the origins of the Christian celebration of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus are grounded in Judaism - and rightly so - rather than Paganism. The flummery of rabbits/hares and the rest are add ons and neither here nor there.

Christians are, as a group arrogant b*****ds! They are never bloody wrong! God (their God) forbid!

Easter and Christmas are not the only ones, but I've given up arguing seeing as how Christians are never, ever, wrong.

Damn Johnny Come lately religion anyway - Judaism, Hindu, Sikh, etc all pre-date your load of old jollop! The oldest known religious artifact is the Venus of Hohle Fels dated at between 35,000 and 40,000 years old

Have some respect for your elders!

Owlswing

)O(

[ProfessorDavey]

The first Christians didn't 'hijack' pagan festivals; they simply used the Jewish Passover as the template for the celebration of Easter.

I accept that Christians based their celebration of passion (note not Easter, which has a different origin entirely) on the dates of passover - but those are themselves highly pagan in nature, being based on the equinox and the lunar cycle.

However there are examples where christians did highjack older festivals. Christmas being a good example - there is no evidence whatsoever for the date of Jesus' birth but they happened to decide to celebrate it smack on the winter solstice - hmm. Even more obvious - halloween and all saints day. Specifically moved by early christians in Celtic countries to coincide with the existing festival of Samhain.

Later denominations - Roman, Orthodox, whatever, may have messed it up a bit, but the fact remains that the origins of the Christian celebration of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus are grounded in Judaism - and rightly so - rather than Paganism. The flummery of rabbits/hares and the rest are add ons and neither here nor there.

But the flummery (as you rather condescendingly call it) of rabbits/hares and the rest are add ons are actually not add ons at all, but faithful to the celebration of Easter as a celebration of the Spring - which is, of course, it's origin and distinct from passion/paschal (call it what you will) which is the christian celebration, while the etymology of the word Easter has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity but everything to do with celebration of the spring.

I suspect you actually know all this but cannot bring yourself to accept it.

[Owlswing]

I accept that Christians based their celebration of passion (note not Easter, which has a different origin entirely) on the dates of passover - but those are themselves highly pagan in nature, being based on the equinox and the lunar cycle.

However there are examples where christians did highjack older festivals. Christmas being a good example - there is no evidence whatsoever for the date of Jesus' birth but they happened to decide to celebrate it smack on the winter solstice - hmm. Even more obvious - halloween and all saints day. Specifically moved by early christians in Celtic countries to coincide with the existing festival of Samhain.

But the flummery (as you rather condescendingly call it) of rabbits/hares and the rest are add ons are actually not add ons at all, but faithful to the celebration of Easter as a celebration of the Spring - which is, of course, it's origin and distinct from passion/paschal (call it what you will) which is the christian celebration, while the etymology of the word Easter has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity but everything to do with celebration of the spring.

I suspect you actually know all this but cannot bring yourself to accept it.

Thank you, my dear Professor, you are so much more eloquent than I - especially when I lose my temper at the arrogance of Christians.

Owlswing

)O(

[Alan Burns]

clarification:

A religious studies scholar Bruce Forbes summarizes:
"Saint Bede wrote that the month in which English Christians were celebrating the resurrection of Jesus had been called Eosturmonath in Old English, referring to a goddess named Eostre. And even though Christians had begun affirming the Christian meaning of the celebration, they continued to use the name of the goddess to designate the season."

Bede was so influential for later Christians that the name stuck, and hence Easter remains the name by which the English, Germans and Americans refer to the festival of Jesus' resurrection.
The origin of the name in no way detracts from the true meaning of what we now celebrate at Easter.

[Anchorman]

Christians are, as a group arrogant b*****ds! They are never bloody wrong! God (their God) forbid!

Easter and Christmas are not the only ones, but I've given up arguing seeing as how Christians are never, ever, wrong.

Damn Johnny Come lately religion anyway - Judaism, Hindu, Sikh, etc all pre-date your load of old jollop! The oldest known religious artifact is the Venus of Hohle Fels dated at between 35,000 and 40,000 years old

Have some respect for your elders!

Owlswing

)O(     

I've plenty of respect for the evolving cultures, Owlswing - given my interest, how could I not?
Yet much of those cultures, prehistoric as well as historic, remain enigmatic.
My own discipline is a case in point. The only basis of codified religion which we have in Egypt was a mish-mash made by Greeks in an attempt to write down a theology which never actually existed ina codified or unified form in the first place. Much of our understanding of Celtic pre-Christian religion comes from Roman, and later Christian, sources.
Even Stonehenge has changed as far as our understanding goes - now we see a staged, evolving midwinter site which seems to have derived from the Orkney culture, where once it was seen as purely midsummer in its' outlook.

[ad_orientem]

clarification:

A religious studies scholar Bruce Forbes summarizes:
"Saint Bede wrote that the month in which English Christians were celebrating the resurrection of Jesus had been called Eosturmonath in Old English, referring to a goddess named Eostre. And even though Christians had begun affirming the Christian meaning of the celebration, they continued to use the name of the goddess to designate the season."

Bede was so influential for later Christians that the name stuck, and hence Easter remains the name by which the English, Germans and Americans refer to the festival of Jesus' resurrection.
The origin of the name in no way detracts from the true meaning of what we now celebrate at Easter.

People get too caught up in the word. Proves little if anything at all.

[Spud]

Interesting that the primary feature of both a pagan and religious festival is a day of rest.

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting that the primary feature of both a pagan and religious festival is a day of rest.

I think many people would consider paganism to be a religion (certainly current day paganism) and therefor the distinction between pagan and religious is a tad ill-considered.

[ProfessorDavey]

The origin of the name in no way detracts from the true meaning of what we now celebrate at Easter.

There we are - right on cue - a christian dictating to the rest of us what the true meaning of Easter is.

News for you chum - while there are plenty of people who see Easter as a time to mark the purported resurrection of Jesus there are plenty of others who see is as a Spring festival. Neither has a monopoly on determining its 'true' meaning albeit those that see it as the celebration of Spring are being faithful to the origin of the name of the festival.

But if we are using the work true - well perhaps we should use it properly - the definition being something which is in accordance with fact or reality.

So if we have two variant true meanings of Easter namely:

A). Associated with an assertion that a person died and then became alive again - an assertion based on no evidence and which contradicts all we know about physiology

B). Association with a season where days get longer and a little warmer, where growth of plants re-emerges and many species start to breed.

Which of those better aligns with being in accordance with fact or reality AB?

[Owlswing]

Interesting that the primary feature of both a pagan and religious festival is a day of rest.

Not in my Coven it wasn't!

A sunrise ritual and then, usually a monumental piss-up, a party for friends and family, most of whom watched the ritual from outside the Circle except for cakes and ale and tye the final blessing.

It was, in part, a party to thank our families for their forbearance in allowing us to disappear for rituals and practices for those rituals.

About the only sombre ritual was for Samhain.

Owlswing

)O(

[Alan Burns]

A). Associated with an assertion that a person died and then became alive again - an assertion based on no evidence and which contradicts all we know about physiology

B). Association with a season where days get longer and a little warmer, where growth of plants re-emerges and many species start to breed.

Which of those better aligns with being in accordance with fact or reality AB?

Both align with reality

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years and have endured to form the foundation of the Christian church.

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.  Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.

[BeRational]

Both align with reality

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years and have endured to form the foundation of the Christian church.

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.  Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.

I'm pretty sure there were no eye witnesses to A, and it cannot stand scrutiny for 5 minutes.

[Stranger]

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years...

Simply false.

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.

Baseless assertion.

Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.

 

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Both align with reality

It’s realities plural – the resurrection story may be convincing enough for some to be their reality, but older realities about Easter sit behind that one too. The amalgamation of religious beliefs that Christianity often did is called syncretism by the way – the resurrection story for example features in ancient Egyptian theology, and likely comes from earlier narratives still about death and re-birth in nature as the seasons turned.

While I’m here, Easter/Oestra is also the root for Oestrus, Oestrogen etc for obvious reasons.     

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years and have endured to form the foundation of the Christian church.

Simply not true – there are no extant eye-witness accounts, and even if there were there’d be no way now to verify them. The best you have is a fairly common preceding myth whose iteration on this occasion happened to catch the wind.     

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.  Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.

Reason- and evidence-free faith claims and an argmentum ad consequentiam. 

[Gordon]

Both align with reality

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years and have endured to form the foundation of the Christian church.

Nope - these stories are indistinguishable from fiction and can, therefore, be dismissed as being claims of historical fact.

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.  Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.

A nice mix of fallacies: your trademark incredulity with an added dash of ad consequentiam.

[Owlswing]

AB,

It’s realities plural – the resurrection story may be convincing enough for some to be their reality, but older realities about Easter sit behind that one too. The amalgamation of religious beliefs that Christianity often did is called syncretism by the way – the resurrection story for example features in ancient Egyptian theology, and likely comes from earlier narratives still about death and rebirth in nature as the seasons turned.

While I’m here, Easter/Oestra is also the root for Oestrus, Oestrogen, etc for obvious reasons.     

Simply not true – there are no extant eye-witness accounts, and even if there were there’d be no way now to verify them. The best you have is a fairly common preceding myth whose iteration on this occasion happened to catch the wind.     

Reason- and evidence-free faith claims and an argmentum ad consequentiam.

BH

I have enormous respect for your knowledge and your patience.

Why do you bother to waste it on someone, anyone, who would not believe you unless you could prove that you were the reincarnation of Jesus Christ himself - except, of course, for the fact that there is absolutely no proof anywhere in reliably annotated history that Jesus Christ ever existed at all, anywhere or anywhen! Anywhere outside the accursed Bible of the Christian Church!

The fact that so many people do believe this monstrous piece of fiction., that millions of the poorest people in the world, pay what little money they have to the Christian church, effectively trying to buy their place in a non-existent heaven that the priests continue to lie about is one of the most damnable con-jobs that anywhere else other than religion would be a serious criminal offence!

Owlswing

)O(

Rant over - temperature declining - going for a large HobGolblin!

[Owlswing]

Nope - these stories are indistinguishable from fiction and can, therefore, be dismissed as being claims of historical fact.

B) Our ability to perceive the miracle of new life with wonder and awe is a reality which exists through the power of our human soul.  Without our God given soul we are just a meaningless continuum of the purposeless unguidable forces in a material universe.


A nice mix of fallacies: your trademark incredulity with an added dash of ad consequentiam.

Please see my response to BH above!

Owlswing

)O(

[ProfessorDavey]

Both align with reality

A) The torture, crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is well documented by several eye witness accounts which have withstood intense scrutiny for over two thousand years and have endured to form the foundation of the Christian church.

Don't make me laugh AB - there are no credible eye witness accounts of the death etc of Jesus - all we have is multiple generation handed down myth and the earliest extant copies of the story available to us is from about 150 years after the purported events.

Let's compare that with the Spring - any eye witnesses to the current Spring - yup me - anyone else want to tell us that over the past days they've been eye witnesses to the Spring.

And also regardless of eye witnesses, we have countless sources of verifiable and objective evidence for the Spring. Verifiable and objective evidence for the death and purported resurrection of Jesus - not a bean, zip, zilch. Plus, of course, it is objectively implausible.

So, no AB, they do not both align with reality - the Spring is objectively real and true. The resurrection of Jesus is merely an assertion, and one based on no evidence whatsoever.

[Nearly Sane]

AB,

It’s realities plural – the resurrection story may be convincing enough for some to be their reality, but older realities about Easter sit behind that one too.

A belief is not reality. What does it mean to be 'their reality'?