Call for Snowdon to only be known by Welsh name Yr Wyddfa

[Nearly Sane]

Can see the appeal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56913993.amp

[Aruntraveller]

Hmm....that's easy for them to say.

[ProfessorDavey]

Can see the appeal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56913993.amp

Indeed - particularly as when I was a child my grandparents lived in a house they called Trem-Yr-Wyddfa as it had a view of Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa) in the distance.

That said I think it is difficult to change names that are embedded and have cultural significance. So whether or not Snowdon becomes officially Yr Wyddfa  there will be loads of people who will still know it as, and call it, Snowdon.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed - particularly as when I was a child my grandparents lived in a house they called Trem-Yr-Wyddfa as it had a view of Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa) in the distance.

That said I think it is difficult to change names that are embedded and have cultural significance. So whether or not Snowdon becomes officially Yr Wyddfa  there will be loads of people who will still know it as, and call it, Snowdon.

And yet the change to Uluru from Ayer's Rock seems to work fairly well.

[ProfessorDavey]

And yet the change to Uluru from Ayer's Rock seems to work fairly well.

To a point - I think there are plenty of people who still call it Ayers Rock and I think it is still officially dual named.

But there is a another issue - the push to use Uluru rather than Ayers Rock has been driven at national level I believe. This push for Yr Wyddfa only has come from Gwynedd county council (and even then not sure this is an official motion), so at a very local level. And there is the compounding issue of the National park - with I suspect a strong push back against renaming it Eryri (even in the English language), which isn't really a recognised name in the way Yr Wyddfa is. And the renaming of Snowdon is unlikely to gain much traction if the national park with it at its centre remains Snowdonia.

There is also the issue of the dual language policy which is in place throughout Wales - so the names Yr Wyddfa and Eryri are prominent in the Welsh language component of the dual language policy - so it seems a little odd to then request that the English changes part of its name to the Welsh.

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/authority/news-and-media/park-logo

[ProfessorDavey]

To a point - I think there are plenty of people who still call it Ayers Rock and I think it is still officially dual named.

But there is a another issue - the push to use Uluru rather than Ayers Rock has been driven at national level I believe. This push for Yr Wyddfa only has come from Gwynedd county council (and even then not sure this is an official motion), so at a very local level. And there is the compounding issue of the National park - with I suspect a strong push back against renaming it Eryri (even in the English language), which isn't really a recognised name in the way Yr Wyddfa is. And the renaming of Snowdon is unlikely to gain much traction if the national park with it at its centre remains Snowdonia.

There is also the issue of the dual language policy which is in place throughout Wales - so the names Yr Wyddfa and Eryri are prominent in the Welsh language component of the dual language policy - so it seems a little odd to then request that the English changes part of its name to the Welsh.

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/authority/news-and-media/park-logo

I've been thinking about this overnight and I think there is a larger issue.

Wales has a dual language policy - in other words all public documents, names etc etc need to be conveyed in both Welsh and English.

Now when it comes to place names the situation is complicated by different naming conventions.

So in some cases there is only one accepted name (typically a traditional Welsh name) and therefore both the English and Welsh language will use the same name - e.g. Tal-y-Bont, Croes-Goch, Cader Idris and hundreds of other names of villages etc

In other cases there are variant spellings of the same name in Welsh and English - e.g. Wrexham/Wrecsam, Cardiff/Caerdydd

But there are others where the English and Welsh are entirely different names, not related to each other at all, Snowdon/Yr-Wyddfa being a good examples, but so to Swansea/Abertawe, Fishguard/Abergwaun, Cardigan/Aberteifi, Tenby/Dinbych-y-pysgod.

So under the dual language policy we use Swansea in the English language, but Abertawe in Welsh etc. Now if the rules for Snowdon/Snowdonia are to be changed such that even in the English language we use Yr-Wyddfa/Eryri and Snowdon/Snowdonia are lost entirely it sets a challenging precedent - one which if adopted consistently would mean that Swansea, Fishguard, Cardigan and Tenby would cease to exist as place names, even in English.

There is another point, which sets Snowdon apart from other examples used in articles on the subject, most notable Everest and Ayers Rock. Snowdon as a name does not come with colonial baggage in the manner that Everest and Ayers Rock do - they are named after colonial settlers which I can see may be increasingly unacceptable, Snowdon simply means snow hill which seems a perfectly acceptable name for the mountain, and no less acceptable than the barrow which is what Yr-Wyddfa means.

[Owlswing]

Is this, possibly, a minor step in a slow move toward the Welsh declaring independence from the U.K. as a possible follow-on from a possible similar declaration from the Scots if they re-join the E. U.?

I do NOT say this with a huge grin on my face. I actually think the break0-up of the U.K. could be an economic disaster for all four parties.

Opinions from the more intelligent and wise (NS and Prof D et al) requested.

Owlswing

)O(

 

[Aruntraveller]

Is this, possibly, a minor step in a slow move toward the Welsh declaring independence from the U.K. as a possible follow-on from a possible similar declaration from the Scots if they re-join the E. U.?

I do NOT say this with a huge grin on my face. I actually think the break0-up of the U.K. could be an economic disaster for all four parties.

Opinions from the more intelligent and wise (NS and Prof D et al) requested.

Owlswing

)O(

I think from the last research I saw there is an upswing in support for the Independence movement in Wales.

Can't find what I read at the moment :-(

EDIT: Found it - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/election-2021-welsh-independence

[ProfessorDavey]

Is this, possibly, a minor step in a slow move toward the Welsh declaring independence from the U.K. as a possible follow-on from a possible similar declaration from the Scots if they re-join the E. U.?

I do NOT say this with a huge grin on my face. I actually think the break0-up of the U.K. could be an economic disaster for all four parties.

Opinions from the more intelligent and wise (NS and Prof D et al) requested.

Owlswing

)O(

Although I am English I have quite a lot of insight into politics and in particular the independence movement in Wales as I spent loads of time at my grandparents in North Wales as a child, went to university in Wales, have a Welsh wife and a number of friends who are fervent Plaid supporters.

I think you are correct that there has been an uptick in support for Welsh independence, but not enough to make it anything like likely yet. There is also a big difference between the Scottish and Welsh independence movements, in that the latter has traditionally focussed heavily on the language. That remains a fairly fringe issue and has been nullified to an extent by changes that ensure that all kids in Wales learn Welsh even in non-Welsh speaking schools. However there are plenty of young people who, while having learned some Welsh at school, would never use it in general conversation and see it as somewhat tokenism.

So until the Welsh independence movement is seen to move firmly on from an obsession with the Welsh language it is unlikely to come close to persuading sufficient people in Wales to support independence. In a strange manner, although Gwynedd council perhaps feel emboldened by the uptick in support for independence to make their move to get rid of Snowdon as a name, I suspect this will do more to alienate, rather than attract, the wavering potential independence supporter, as it heads firmly back into the traditional territory of obsession with the language.

[Nearly Sane]

I bow to Prof D's knowledge of the politics of Welsh devolution. Given Brexit and some aspects of Covid, I wasn't surprised to see an uptick in the support for independence in Wales.


The politics of native languages though is interesting in all of Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. I agree with what Prof D says that a concentration on language can have a detrimental effect on swing voter support. It's hard to pull off the idea of civic nationalism when language gets involved as there are definite hints of ethic nationalism to some areas of that. That said thougb, if you aren't supporting local culture, it might lose some support from others that might support you.

In Scotland we've only fairly recently gone to dual language signs. Scots Gaelic is starting from a lower level to Welsh, or Irish Gaelic. It's caused some stushie about cost, which isn't really that significant, and some of the names are a bit bizarre as there was never a Gaelic equivalent with the most populous areas never having had it as a main language.

In NI, one of the issues that has suspended the devolved govt has been support for Irish Gaelic. It's a much more divisive subject there where it's part of definitive split between Unionist and Republicans.


As to Welsh independence, I cannot see it happening in a pretty long time. I also don't see Scottish independence this decade in part because of the impact of Brexit. NI, I think, could happen thid decade  and that's because of the Brexit settlement.

Getting back to Yr Waddfa, it appears that the next 24 highest peaks in Wales are all known solely by their Welsh names.

[ProfessorDavey]

The politics of native languages though is interesting in all of Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. I agree with what Prof D says that a concentration on language can have a detrimental effect on swing voter support. It's hard to pull off the idea of civic nationalism when language gets involved as there are definite hints of ethic nationalism to some areas of that.

I agree with that - and the issue of Welsh speaking creates some issues that may be considered to be direct or indirect discrimination in that there are jobs that expect you to have knowledge of the Welsh language even if it isn't required to do the job.

I think that the Scottish brand of civic nationalism has a much wider appeal - effectively develop a society is run by, and that works best for everyone living in Scotland. That seems inherently inclusive in a manner that Welsh nationalism doesn't seem to be.

[ProfessorDavey]

Getting back to Yr Waddfa, it appears that the next 24 highest peaks in Wales are all known solely by their Welsh names.

I'd like to see that list - actually I am struggling to think of other Welsh mountain names that aren't Welsh and only Welsh - many Sugar Loaf down in the south, but that's really just a hill. Crybbin?

[ProfessorDavey]

Getting back to Yr Waddfa, it appears that the next 24 highest peaks in Wales are all known solely by their Welsh names.

Here's the list I've found:

https://www.walkingenglishman.com/mountains1.html

You need to go down to number 82 and Black Mountain before you find another peak with an English name.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd like to see that list - actually I am struggling to think of other Welsh mountain names that aren't Welsh and only Welsh - many Sugar Loaf down in the south, but that's really just a hill. Crybbin?

https://www.mudandroutes.com/highest-mountains-wales-top-25/

[Nearly Sane]

Here's the list I've found:

https://www.walkingenglishman.com/mountains1.html

You need to go down to number 82 and Black Mountain before you find another peak with an English name.

It makes me wonder why Yr Waddfa is such an outlier.

[ProfessorDavey]

It makes me wonder why Yr Waddfa is such an outlier.

Or even Yr Wyddfa

Yes interesting why it ended up with an English name - perhaps because it is the highest.

I did wonder whether it was a legacy of the earliest tourism days e.g. George Borrow and Wild Wales from the 1860s, but apparently not. From the BBC article:

Hill expert Myrddyn Phillips said, according to Hywel Wyn Owen and Richard Morgan's Dictionary of the Place-Names of Wales, the name Snowdon is documented as far back as far 1095, while the first known reference to Yr Wyddfa was in 1284.

So the name Snowdon has been around for nigh on 1000 years and potentially is older than Yr Wyddfa.

[SteveH]

Or even Yr Wyddfa

Yes interesting why it ended up with an English name - perhaps because it is the highest.

Because it gets snowed on in Winter?

[Nearly Sane]

Because it gets snowed on in Winter?

I think most of them do.

[SteveH]

Can see the appeal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56913993.amp

Did the Park Authority decide that at a summit conference?

[jeremyp]

It makes me wonder why Yr Waddfa is such an outlier.

Because it's hard to spell Yr Wyddfa?

[jeremyp]

Because it gets snowed on in Winter?

If it had been based on my experience, it would be called Raindon.

[jeremyp]

I think most of them do.

That shouldn't be a problem. I understand all the high mountains in Scotland are called "Munro".

[Nearly Sane]

That shouldn't be a problem. I understand all the high mountains in Scotland are called "Munro".

or Ben

[Nearly Sane]

Because it's hard to spell Yr Wyddfa?

so all the other Welsh names for the mountains known by their Welsh names are easy to spell?

[jeremyp]

so all the other Welsh names for the mountains known by their Welsh names are easy to spell?

Yes. Carder Idris, Triphan, Carneth Lewelin. Simples.