Israel is complicated

[jeremyp]

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-fed-up

An Israeli perspective on the current problems therein and a commentary on Western attitudes.

[Aruntraveller]

Thanks for posting that. Very intersting.

[SteveH]

Israel is the oppressor; the Palestinians are the oppressed - seems pretty simple to me.

[jeremyp]

Israel is the oppressor; the Palestinians are the oppressed - seems pretty simple to me.

You need to read the article. It is, as the title of this thread says, complicated.

[Enki]

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-fed-up

An Israeli perspective on the current problems therein and a commentary on Western attitudes.

Thanks for the article, Jeremy. Indeed it is complicated, and I see no resolution to the problems in the short or medium term.

[Enki]

Israel is the oppressor; the Palestinians are the oppressed - seems pretty simple to me.

No surprise there then.

[jeremyp]

Thanks for the article, Jeremy. Indeed it is complicated, and I see no resolution to the problems in the short or medium term.

I listened to a podcast on Dan Smow's channel the other day with Daniel Finkelstein. This one, in fact:

https://play.acast.com/s/dansnowshistoryhit/israelandpalestine-ajewishperspectivewithdanielfinkelstein

He agrees that the problem is insoluble.

[Udayana]

It may or may not be complicated, but the the writer is an expert in "breaking down the complexities of difficult subjects to make them more accessible for any reader".

How? By presenting a simple stereotype of the "other side" as terrorists. It's racism pure and simple, and there is no solution to that ... except, er... to stop being racist.
 

[Nearly Sane]

Found this an interesting article on how support for the different sides has changed


https://unherd.com/2021/05/why-the-left-gave-up-on-israel/?=refinnar

[Aruntraveller]

How? By presenting a simple stereotype of the "other side" as terrorists. It's racism pure and simple, and there is no solution to that ... except, er... to stop being racist.

I didn't get that when I read it. He certainly called Hamas terrorists, which they are according to every source I can find. On Palestinians he said this:

I’m fed up. Everyday Palestinians are fed up. Everyday Israelis are fed up. This is not a conflict between ‘Palestine and Israel’, it’s a conflict between decent people (on both sides) and the most perverse extremists on earth.

[jeremyp]

It may or may not be complicated, but the the writer is an expert in "breaking down the complexities of difficult subjects to make them more accessible for any reader".

How? By presenting a simple stereotype of the "other side" as terrorists.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. That's pretty indisputable.

It's racism pure and simple, and there is no solution to that ... except, er... to stop being racist.

Only if you conflate Hamas and all Palestinians. If criticism of Hamas is racism, criticism of the Israeli government is antisemitism. I don't think either are true.

[Udayana]

I didn't get that when I read it. He certainly called Hamas terrorists, which they are according to every source I can find. On Palestinians he said this:

I’m fed up. Everyday Palestinians are fed up. Everyday Israelis are fed up. This is not a conflict between ‘Palestine and Israel’, it’s a conflict between decent people (on both sides) and the most perverse extremists on earth.

So if Hamas didn't exist all would be peace and happiness in a land flowing with milk and honey? No, he doesn't waste a single letter considering the rights, needs or feelings of any "Palestinians" at all. It is all about the suffering inflicted on "Israelis" by Hamas.

Hamas certainly are terrorists ... but they didn't just pop out of the ground, grown from dragons teeth like the Spartoi!     

[Udayana]

...
Only if you conflate Hamas and all Palestinians. If criticism of Hamas is racism, criticism of the Israeli government is antisemitism. I don't think either are true.

That is what he is pushing the reader into. Criticism of Hamas is not racism, nor criticism of the Israeli government, but both organisations fuel and perpetuate racism. They only look out for the interests of "their own people" and care nothing for the rights etc. of those they consider as "other" - indeed act with a vindictive hate.
 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-fed-up

An Israeli perspective on the current problems therein and a commentary on Western attitudes.

Yet they’re happy to #PrayForPalestine whilst ignoring the thousands of rockets being fired by Hamas at Israeli citizens,

That is an example of the author's prejudice - assuming that praying for Palestine means supporting Hamas. That's a biased assumption and such examples of entrenched prejudice from some Israelis and their supporters is one of the reasons why this issue won't be solved. There are also examples of entrenched prejudices on the part of some Palestinians and their supporters as well.

Why does the author not assume, as many of us do, that praying for Palestine means praying for the dead, injured and homeless civilians, including children, whose homes have been bombed to rubble by Israeli missile strikes, and praying for the Palestinians who have little rights over their own land in terms of water or freedom of movement or ownership because Israel has built checkpoints all over Palestinian land to protect its illegal settlements and disrupt Palestinian lives in the hope of driving more Palestinians off their own land in the Occupied Territories; that means what should be a short journey for Palestinians takes hours - we all read about the frustrations expressed here due to LTNS in London - multiply that and add heavily armed Israeli soldiers who have no problem with brutalising Palestinians and then wonder why people are praying for Palestine.

We could be praying for Palestinians subjected to illegal Israeli land grabs, or praying for sick Palestinians in ambulances that are subjected to hours of delays at Israeli checkpoints at the whim of Israeli soldiers who sit around without searching the ambulance for an hour or so just to be deliberately obstructive; we could be praying for Palestinian children who have their exams and education disrupted by Israeli military operations and police detentions, which impacts on their future and employment prospects and the ability of the community to do more than exist in a bitter mindset of hatred against their Israeli oppressors.

When confronted with the number of dead Palestinian civilians (children, the elderly, Palestinian medics etc) caused by Israeli attacks on buildings housing Palestinian civilians, I think it shows a lack of basic humanity to say "what about the Palestinian rockets.." The rockets have not caused anywhere near the same number of Israeli deaths. If numbers dead does not matter, we would not have been so vociferous in our condemnation of 3000 dead civilians in the Twin Towers attack, misguidedly justified by some as payback for US military and economic actions.

Hamas is not exactly a surprise in such circumstances of deprivation of land and basic rights - any more than people joining gangs in deprived areas and knifing people is a surprise in London. Social scientists can predict these outcomes. Heck even Ben Gurion predicted it:

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister)

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/   

[Owlswing]

I wonder just how many Israeli's are listening out for Hamas rockets and thinking to themselves "God all F***ing mighty I/my parents/my grandparents managed to survive the Nazi's and their concentration camps to die by another bunch of Jew hater's rockets and to know that there are people out there who, once again, say it is all our own fault!

 

[Nearly Sane]

I wonder just how many Israeli's are listening out for Hamas rockets and thinking to themselves "God all F***ing mighty I/my parents/my grandparents managed to survive the Nazi's and their concentration camps to die by another bunch of Jew hater's rockets and to know that there are people out there who, once again, say it is all our own fault!

But it's ok if you are Palestinian to have your child killed by a bomb?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I wonder just how many Israeli's are listening out for Hamas rockets and thinking to themselves "God all F***ing mighty I/my parents/my grandparents managed to survive the Nazi's and their concentration camps to die by another bunch of Jew hater's rockets and to know that there are people out there who, once again, say it is all our own fault!

Probably not that many as many of the Israelis came not to escape persecution but to colonise.

As Ben Gurion put it ""For many of us, anti-Semitic feeling had little to do with our dedication [to Zionism]. I personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution. Płońsk was remarkably free of it ... Nevertheless, and I think this very significant, it was Płońsk that sent the highest proportion of Jews to Eretz Israel from any town in Poland of comparable size. We emigrated not for negative reasons of escape but for the positive purpose of rebuilding a homeland ... Life in Płońsk was peaceful enough. There were three main communities: Russians, Jews and Poles. ... The number of Jews and Poles in the city were roughly equal, about five thousand each. The Jews, however, formed a compact, centralized group occupying the innermost districts whilst the Poles were more scattered, living in outlying areas and shading off into the peasantry. Consequently, when a gang of Jewish boys met a Polish gang the latter would almost inevitably represent a single suburb and thus be poorer in fighting potential than the Jews who even if their numbers were initially fewer could quickly call on reinforcements from the entire quarter. Far from being afraid of them, they were rather afraid of us. In general, however, relations were amicable, though distant."

[Owlswing]

Probably not that many as many of the Israelis came not to escape persecution but to colonise.

As Ben Gurion put it ""For many of us, anti-Semitic feeling had little to do with our dedication [to Zionism]. I personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution. Płońsk was remarkably free of it ... Nevertheless, and I think this very significant, it was Płońsk that sent the highest proportion of Jews to Eretz Israel from any town in Poland of comparable size. We emigrated not for negative reasons of escape but for the positive purpose of rebuilding a homeland ... Life in Płońsk was peaceful enough. There were three main communities: Russians, Jews and Poles. ... The number of Jews and Poles in the city were roughly equal, about five thousand each. The Jews, however, formed a compact, centralized group occupying the innermost districts whilst the Poles were more scattered, living in outlying areas and shading off into the peasantry. Consequently, when a gang of Jewish boys met a Polish gang the latter would almost inevitably represent a single suburb and thus be poorer in fighting potential than the Jews who even if their numbers were initially fewer could quickly call on reinforcements from the entire quarter. Far from being afraid of them, they were rather afraid of us. In general, however, relations were amicable, though distant."

Lucky old  Ben Gurion - he survived - of my mother's family ONE person survived - her mother - and that was because she had married an Englishman and was living in Essex - other than her every last one of her relatives, who had the misfortune to be Dutch, died in Auschwitz.

[jeremyp]

That is what he is pushing the reader into.

You clearly didn't read the article. He is very careful to distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians.

Criticism of Hamas is not racism,

Why did you just claim criticism of Hamas is racism then?

[jeremyp]

Probably not that many as many of the Israelis came not to escape persecution but to colonise.

I think it was clearly a mistake creating the state of Israel where it is, but that was 74 years ago. We have to deal with the situation as it is now. The situation is now that Hamas wants to genocide the Jews. Israel is defending itself and innocent people are dying as a result. There's no solution to this.

[Owlswing]

 But it's ok if you are Palestinian to have your child killed by a bomb?

It is when your child was killed by a Palestinian rocket!

And don't give me the bollocks about Hamas not being Palestinian! It is operating from within Palestinian territory - if you don't want your kids, or yourself, killed by an Israeli bomb get Hamas out of Palestinian territory!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Lucky old  Ben Gurion - he survived - of my mother's family ONE person survived - her mother - and that was because she had married an Englishman and was living in Essex - other than her every last one of her relatives, who had the misfortune to be Dutch, died in Auschwitz.

Sorry to hear about your family. The Europeans did that to your family, not the Arabs.

Britain, America and the UN had no right to compensate European Jews for the terrible atrocities inflicted on them by Europeans by creating a new Jewish state using Arab land and forcing Arabs at gunpoint off their own land. Ben-Gurion, the first PM of Israel understood this and knew that creating Israel would probably cause ongoing war and conflict. Why can't you?

Palestinian civilians probably have stories about how only 1 person out of their whole family survived Israel's illegal occupation or  Israeli military operations in densely populated areas that kill hundreds of civilians. The Palestinians therefore seem to have something in common with your family.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It is when your child was killed by a Palestinian rocket!

That's the same logic Hamas uses - it is ok to fire rockets at Israelis if a Palestinian child was killed by an IDF bullet or missile.

And don't give me the bollocks about Hamas not being Palestinian! It is operating from within Palestinian territory - if you don't want your kids, or yourself, killed by an Israeli bomb get Hamas out of Palestinian territory!

Hamas and you have something in common - they tell the Israelis if you don't want rockets fired at you, get out of Palestinian lands.

[Udayana]

You clearly didn't read the article. He is very careful to distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians.Why did you just claim criticism of Hamas is racism then?

I didn't. Anyway, Hamas are Palestinian aren't they?

[Udayana]

That's the same logic Hamas uses - it is ok to fire rockets at Israelis if a Palestinian child was killed by an IDF bullet or missile.
Hamas and you have something in common - they tell the Israelis if you don't want rockets fired at you, get out of Palestinian lands.

Of-course. “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”