Author Topic: The universe is conscious?  (Read 10098 times)

Sriram

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The universe is conscious?
« on: June 24, 2021, 07:47:13 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is an article examining whether the universe is conscious. Scientists like Johannes Kleiner are trying to answer that.

https://www.space.com/is-the-universe-conscious

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"Consciousness — or better, conscious experience — is obviously a part of reality," said Johannes Kleiner, a mathematician and theoretical physicist at the Munich Center For Mathematical Philosophy, Germany. "We're all having it but without understanding how it relates to the known physics, our understanding of the universe is incomplete."

With that in mind, Kleiner is hoping math will enable him to precisely define consciousness. Working with colleague Sean Tull, a mathematician at the University of Oxford, U.K., the pair are being driven, to some degree, by a philosophical point of view called panpsychism.

This claims consciousness is inherent in even the tiniest pieces of matter — an idea that suggests the fundamental building blocks of reality have conscious experience. Crucially, it implies consciousness could be found throughout the universe.

"If there is an isolated pair of particles floating around somewhere in space, they will have some rudimentary form of consciousness if they interact in the correct way," said Kleiner.

So according to IIT, the universe is indeed full of consciousness. But does it have implications for the physical part of the universe? The math of the theory says it does not. A physical system will operate independently, whether it has a conscious experience or not.

His and Tull's math version of IIT, on the other hand, is intended to be what could be called a fundamental theory of consciousness. "It tries to weave consciousness into the fundamental fabric of reality, albeit in a very specific way," said Kleiner. And if it's shown that the universe is conscious, what then? What are the consequences?

"There might be moral implications. We tend to treat systems that have conscious experiences different from systems that don't," said Kleiner.

Yet if it is proven that consciousness plays a causal role in the universe, it would have huge consequences for the scientific view of the world, said Kleiner. "It could lead to a scientific revolution on a par with the one initiated by Galileo Galilei," he said.

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It would also prove that religions and spiritual philosophies have been right all along!

Cheers.

Sriram

Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2021, 08:57:56 AM »
Well, that's a dog's breakfast of an article. Orch OR and IIT are entirely different (and highly speculative) conjectures about consciousness. If one is true, the other isn't. About the only thing they have in common is that you'd expect some sort of rudimentary consciousness to be present in (relatively) simple systems - although IIT is more restrictive as Phi can actually be zero.

The comment about the universe at the end (and the title) appears to have little to do with either IIT, Orch OR, or what the rest of the article says. Rudimentary consciousness being more common in the universe does not mean that the universe itself (as a whole) is conscious. I can see no why in which either conjecture would lead to that conclusion.

Science journalism at its worst.
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SusanDoris

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2021, 09:16:49 AM »
Well, that's a dog's breakfast of an article. Orch OR and IIT are entirely different (and highly speculative) conjectures about consciousness. If one is true, the other isn't. About the only thing they have in common is that you'd expect some sort of rudimentary consciousness to be present in (relatively) simple systems - although IIT is more restrictive as Phi can actually be zero.

The comment about the universe at the end (and the title) appears to have little to do with either IIT, Orch OR, or what the rest of the article says. Rudimentary consciousness being more common in the universe does not mean that the universe itself (as a whole) is conscious. I can see no why in which either conjecture would lead to that conclusion.

Science journalism at its worst.
Thank you for writing that - I didn't think there would be any  need to read the OP or follow any link, so just read your post!
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 10:36:33 AM »

Hi everyone,

I know it is difficult (maybe impossible) for people who are used to the old school science and its mechanistic model of the world, to accept or even understand how consciousness could be fundamental....but then, reality is often surprising and even bizarre.

Once consciousness is accepted as fundamental, explaining the order and patterns in life and also explaining such things as evolution and complexity become so much easier. We don't require convoluted and twisted explanations that rely so much on randomness and chance factors.

Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 10:58:42 AM »
I know it is difficult (maybe impossible) for people who are used to the old school science and its mechanistic model of the world, to accept or even understand how consciousness could be fundamental....but then, reality is often surprising and even bizarre.

Your rather childish habit of referring to real, evidence based science as 'old school' has been noted before. It's far from difficult to understand that consciousness might be fundamental (it's trivially easy, actually), the point being that we currently have nothing but speculation on the subject; no actual evidence.

The two different (and mutually exclusive) conjectures in the article are not impossible, it's just that we currently have nothing to suggest that they are probable. They remain entirely speculative. And, as I noted before, if either one turns out to be correct, the other is wrong.

Once consciousness is accepted as fundamental, explaining the order and patterns in life and also explaining such things as evolution and complexity become so much easier. We don't require convoluted and twisted explanations that rely so much on randomness and chance factors.

There is nothing at all 'convoluted or twisted' about the theory evolution. It's essentially very simple. As Richard Dawkins puts it:

"Natural selection is not some desperate last resort of a theory. It is an idea whose plausibility and power hit you between the eyes with stunning force, once you understand it in all its elegant simplicity. Well might T. H. Huxley cry out, ‘How extremely stupid of me not to have thought of that!’"

The fact that you refuse to learn the basics, doesn't mean that it's complicated.

What's more, neither of the conjectures in the article would make the slightest difference to evolution. The process of evolution would just have taken advantage of them in order to produce 'concentrations' of consciousness. The conciousness that either speculation would lead to outside of brains would be minimal flickers of awareness, not fully functioning minds. You don't even seem to understand the speculations you refer to.
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 01:27:19 PM »

Randomness, which is the basis for the theory of evolution that you profess....does hit us between the eyes...rather painfully. 

I know evolution is valid.  I have no problem with evolution in itself as long as it is not based on randomness.  It becomes far more elegant when we recognize the intelligence (consciousness) behind the process.

Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 01:41:18 PM »
Randomness, which is the basis for the theory of evolution that you profess....does hit us between the eyes...rather painfully. 

And yet again you show your lack of understanding. Natural selection is not random. Random variation supplies novelty and natural selection chooses those new traits that are useful in the context of the environment.

It becomes far more elegant when we recognize the intelligence (consciousness) behind the process.

On the contrary, it becomes more complicated and totally contrived - and there is exactly zero evidence to support the idea.
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 01:52:05 PM »
And yet again you show your lack of understanding. Natural selection is not random. Random variation supplies novelty and natural selection chooses those new traits that are useful in the context of the environment.

On the contrary, it becomes more complicated and totally contrived - and there is exactly zero evidence to support the idea.


There you go again.....'natural selection chooses those new traits that are useful...'.  Very anthropomorphic...!    ::)

Environmental changes are random. So the entire process has to be random.


SusanDoris

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 02:09:55 PM »
Randomness, which is the basis for the theory of evolution that you profess....does hit us between the eyes...rather painfully. 

I know evolution is valid.  I have no problem with evolution in itself as long as it is not based on randomness.  It becomes far more elegant when we recognize the intelligence (consciousness) behind the process.
You really don't know what you're talking about, do you! Tell me: How do you think two species of for instance a rabbit-like animal, can become two separate species no longer able to interbreed.  How long do you think this would take? Why would it happen?
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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2021, 02:22:59 PM »
There you go again.....'natural selection chooses those new traits that are useful...'.  Very anthropomorphic...!    ::)

The mechanism via which it does so is very, very simple and requires no intelligence or consciousness. It's virtually a truism. Obviously you are desperate not to understand or accept it (because it might undermine your precious beliefs) but, yet again: those individuals that have traits that aid their survival and reproduction in the context of the environment, by a staggering coincidence (not!), tend to leave more offspring in the next generation than those that lack them. Hence said traits will increase in frequency over generations. Similarly, those traits that hinder survival and reproduction will tend to die out (for equally obvious reasons).

That's it. Simple, elegant, and with incredible explanatory power.

Environmental changes are random. So the entire process has to be random.

What we are actually explaining here is the diversity and complexity of life and each species' suitability to its environment. Even if we add intelligence, it would have to respond to changes in the environment, so by this 'argument' intelligent design would also be random because the environment is random.  ::)
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2021, 06:25:06 AM »



No. Intelligence gives a direction even if the overall environment is random. Just as we humans react intelligently and with clear intent even though the over all environment (climate change, earthquakes, tsunamis) is largely random. We have however learnt to predict the changes in our environment.

That is Intelligence at work in evolution. Phenotypic changes lead to adaptation. Intelligent responses to the environment lead to phenotypic changes.   

 

Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2021, 08:40:43 AM »
No. Intelligence gives a direction even if the overall environment is random. Just as we humans react intelligently and with clear intent even though the over all environment (climate change, earthquakes, tsunamis) is largely random. We have however learnt to predict the changes in our environment.

You would still be being pulled around by the environment - just like natural selection. The point is that everything has to survive in its environment and natural selection is not random with respect to the environment because bacically it is the environment.

Populations adapt to their environment over generations and that is explained by random variation and natural selection.

That is Intelligence at work in evolution.

Baseless assertion. There is simply no need for intelligence and you have provided no evidence or reasoning - just your own complete failure to comprehend the actual science.

Phenotypic changes lead to adaptation. Intelligent responses to the environment lead to phenotypic changes.

A phenotype's ability to react its its environment consists of traits that have evolved in the usual way. Your endless foot-stamping doesn't change the evidence.
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2021, 01:50:30 PM »
Changes in phenotype to suit the environment shows a responsive intelligence within organisms.....even the simplest ones. This is the process by which an organism adapts to its environment and survives.

This simple fact cannot be denied.

Your contention that something called random variation and Natural Selection has created this complex process within all organisms is neither here nor there. It is just an assertion.

Coming back to the thread....panpsychism (and cosmopsychism) are here to stay.  You can't be in denial for long.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2021, 01:55:50 PM »


Coming back to the thread....panpsychism (and cosmopsychism) are here to stay.  You can't be in denial for long.
Flat-Earthism is here to stay.
 ::)
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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2021, 02:10:47 PM »
Changes in phenotype to suit the environment shows a responsive intelligence within organisms.....even the simplest ones.

No, it doesn't. Evolution by natural selection explains apparently 'designed' or 'intelligent' responses to the environment without any need for actual intelligence.

Your contention that something called random variation and Natural Selection has created this complex process within all organisms is neither here nor there. It is just an assertion.

You seem to be confusing real science with your own attitude. It is you who have offered nothing but baseless assertions.

There is endless evidence for evolution and the mechanisms of random variation and natural selectio. It is directly observable (not least in the current pandemic) and can be simulated on a computer. None of the evidence is secret, it's trivially easy to find if you had any real interest in the truth of the matter.

You are effectively accusing the entire scientific community that studies these subjects of being wrong - and offering nothing but endless assertions to back it up. It's quite comical, actually.

Coming back to the thread....panpsychism (and cosmopsychism) are here to stay.  You can't be in denial for long.

More foot-stamping.  ::)
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2021, 05:54:59 AM »


Science will get there...by and by.

Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2021, 07:25:20 AM »


You keep questioning the credentials and quality of the reporting whenever something you don't understand is investigated or discussed in science journals.... clutching at straws in other words..! Here is an article in Scientific American.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-consciousness-pervade-the-universe/

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What if consciousness is not something special that the brain does but is instead a quality inherent to all matter? It is a theory known as “panpsychism,”

In our standard view of things, consciousness exists only in the brains of highly evolved organisms, and hence consciousness exists only in a tiny part of the universe and only in very recent history. According to panpsychism, in contrast, consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it.

Some people use it to mean something quite sophisticated, such as self-awareness or the capacity to reflect on one’s own existence. This is something we might be reluctant to ascribe to many nonhuman animals, never mind fundamental particles. But when I use the word consciousness, I simply mean experience: pleasure, pain, visual or auditory experience, et cetera.

Human beings have a very rich and complex experience; horses less so; mice less so again. As we move to simpler and simpler forms of life, we find simpler and simpler forms of experience. Perhaps, at some point, the light switches off, and consciousness disappears. But it’s at least coherent to suppose that this continuum of consciousness fading while never quite turning off carries on into inorganic matter, with fundamental particles having almost unimaginably simple forms of experience to reflect their incredibly simple nature. That’s what panpsychists believe.

There is a deep mystery in understanding how what we know about ourselves from the inside fits together with what science tells us about matter from the outside.

While the problem is broadly acknowledged, many people think we just need to plug away at our standard methods of investigating the brain, and we’ll eventually crack it. But in my new book, I argue that the problem of consciousness results from the way we designed science at the start of the scientific revolution.

Physics tells us absolutely nothing about what philosophers like to call the intrinsic nature of matter: what matter is, in and of itself.

So it turns out that there is a huge hole in our scientific story. The proposal of the panpsychist is to put consciousness in that hole. Consciousness, for the panpsychist, is the intrinsic nature of matter.

What this offers us is a beautifully simple, elegant way of integrating consciousness into our scientific worldview, of marrying what we know about ourselves from the inside and what science tells us about matter from the outside.

There is a profound difficulty at the heart of the science of consciousness: consciousness is unobservable. We know that consciousness exists not from observation and experiment but by being conscious.

The moral of the story is that we need both the science and the philosophy to get a theory of consciousness. The science gives us correlations between brain activity and experience. We then have to work out the best philosophical theory that explains those correlations.

I think we can have hope that we will one day have a science of consciousness, but we need to rethink what science is. Panpsychism offers us a way of doing this.

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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2021, 08:10:32 AM »
Science will get there...by and by.

This is why you're unquestionably being irrational. One of these speculations may turn out to be true and science may show that to be the case. Making up your mind before we have the evidence is nothing but blind faith. Latching on to any and every speculation that you perceive as fitting with what you want to believe, regardless of its basis or whether it contradicts other ideas you've been peddling, makes it desperate blind faith.
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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2021, 08:42:32 AM »
You keep questioning the credentials and quality of the reporting whenever something you don't understand is investigated or discussed in science journals.... clutching at straws in other words..! Here is an article in Scientific American.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-consciousness-pervade-the-universe/

Things I don't understand? That's funny. It appears to be you who lack a basic understanding of many of the speculations you post about - like not grasping that they are mutually exclusive or thinking that ideas like IIT or Orch OR would make the universe conscious. And that's before we get to your basic misunderstanding of evolution and stubborn refusal to learn anything about it. Your endless (and contradictory) posts on the subject of consciousness are the epitome of straw clutching.

Also, space.com (the OP article) is not a science journal and the article you linked to was a complete mess for the reasons I pointed out. The fact is that pop-science sources are often somewhat inaccurate or sensationalised and that article was a particularly egregious example.

Scientific American isn't a science journal either. This article is just a philosopher talking about panpsychism. What's your point? Everybody knows that some philosophers believe panpsychism (everybody who's at all interested in the subject, that is).  Many other ideas from philosophy on the subject of consciousness are available.
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2021, 02:58:17 PM »

A nice interview with Donald Hoffman on reality and consciousness.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/


Outrider

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2021, 03:40:51 PM »
No. Intelligence gives a direction even if the overall environment is random. Just as we humans react intelligently and with clear intent even though the over all environment (climate change, earthquakes, tsunamis) is largely random.

Large scale events such as climate change, earthquakes and tsunami are anything but random - they are quite well established consequences of readily identified precursor events and activities. Within, say, climate change, individual weather events are functionally random, inasmuch as we lack the depth of information and the processing power to accurately predict them to that level, but they are also inevitable consequences of the prior status of the world.

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That is Intelligence at work in evolution.

No, that is nothing like evolution, and there is no evidence that there is 'intelligence' at work in evolutionary mechanisms.

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Phenotypic changes lead to adaptation.

No, variation leads to adaptation, and adaptation leads to relative increases in replication which, over time, leads to phenotypic changes.

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Intelligent responses to the environment lead to phenotypic changes.

This is a possibility, although we've perhaps not had enough time to witness it, but it's an example of evolution, and the intelligence in question (i.e. human intelligence) is itself a function of earlier, apparently unguided, evolution.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2021, 05:22:08 AM »
This is why you're unquestionably being irrational. One of these speculations may turn out to be true and science may show that to be the case. Making up your mind before we have the evidence is nothing but blind faith. Latching on to any and every speculation that you perceive as fitting with what you want to believe, regardless of its basis or whether it contradicts other ideas you've been peddling, makes it desperate blind faith.


Rationality is not everything. It has its uses but is largely microscopic in nature. Not useful for broader, more holistic perspectives of life.

Sriram

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2021, 07:16:41 AM »


http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/psychology/consciousness-fundamental-quality-universe-07291.html

Author: Steve Taylor, Senior Lecturer in Psychology at Leeds Beckett University.

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There used to be an assumption that consciousness is produced by our brains, and that in order to understand it, we just need to figure out how the brain works. But this assumption raises questions. Apart from the fact that decades of research and theorizing have not shed any significant light on the issue, there are some strange mismatches between consciousness and brain activity.

If you held a human brain in your hand, you would find it to be a soggy clump of gray matter, a bit like putty, weighing about 1.3 kg. How is it possible that this gray soggy stuff can give rise to the richness and depth of your conscious experience? This is known as the ‘hard problem’ of consciousness.

As a result, many eminent philosophers (such as David Chalmers and Thomas Nagel) and scientists like Christof Koch and Tononi have rejected the idea that consciousness is directly produced by brain processes. They have turned to the alternative view that it is actually a fundamental quality of the Universe.

the idea of consciousness as a fundamental quality offers elegant solutions to many problems which are difficult to explain using the standard scientific model.

First, it can explain the relationship between the brain and consciousness. The brain does not produce consciousness, but acts as a kind of receiver which ‘picks up’ the fundamental consciousness that is all around us, and ‘transmits’ it into our own being.

One of the arguments for assuming that the brain produces consciousness is that, if the brain is damaged, consciousness is impaired or altered. However, this doesn’t invalidate the idea that the brain may be a receiver and transmitter of consciousness.

Conventional science also struggles to explain the powerful effect of mental intention and belief on the body (as illustrated by the placebo effect and the pain numbing effects of hypnosis). If the mind is just a byproduct of matter, it should not be able to influence the form and functioning of the body so profoundly.

these effects are comprehensible if we presume that mind is more fundamental than the matter of the body, a more subtle and fuller expression of fundamental consciousness. As a result, it has the capacity to alter the functioning of the body.

I believe the idea of consciousness as a fundamental quality of the Universe has a great deal of weight.

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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2021, 07:46:41 AM »
Rationality is not everything. It has its uses but is largely microscopic in nature. Not useful for broader, more holistic perspectives of life.

This both tells us a lot about you and is rather funny. If you ditch rationality, you can forget understanding reality. You don't get a "broader, more holistic perspective", you just open the door to literally anything you'd like to believe.
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Stranger

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Re: The universe is conscious?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2021, 08:01:36 AM »
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