Methodists affirm gay marriage.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you fully support civil gay marriage, and gay marriage in your church?

Since I classify Civil Gay Marriage and Gay marriage as the same would I want civil marriage in the church?
Maybe if the funds so gained were turned into the evangelistic effort.

[Aruntraveller]

How is the idea of a load of snotty sounding home counties liberals and humanists listing what God should do any less amusing?

Are they?

You are just deflecting. Like Anchorman you seem to be in a position of wanting your cake and eating it.

"I agree with everyone's right to marriage."

"I agree with the Church's right to discriminate on the issue of marriage."


Circle meet square.


PS not from the home counties and not a humanist.

[Anchorman]

At the risk of playing Devil's Advocate, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, no?

O.

   

Yep. The straw's been fraying for about two decades now.
Numbers in the Kirk have dropped - partly because many have left to join other denominations and independent congregations.
The Free Church - now a bit (though not much....( more flexible, has increased its' number of congregations - and the one in Aye has split...not because of the usual schism, but because the building only seats four hundred, and they need new premisis, so a new congregations formed.
My local independent Fellowship, once a rather austere Bretheren assembly, kicked itself in the backside a few years ago, became far more friendly, and now has a serious problem with limited accomodation as the congregation has doubled.

[Nearly Sane]

Since I classify Civil Gay Marriage and Gay marriage as the same would I want civil marriage in the church?
Maybe if the funds so gained were turned into the evangelistic effort.

  Evasive homophobia

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are they?

You are just deflecting. Like Anchorman you seem to be in a position of wanting your cake and eating it.

"I agree with everyone's right to marriage."

"I agree with the Church's right to discriminate on the issue of marriage."


Circle meet square.


PS not from the home counties and not a humanist.

Sorry, of course, you are from the East Midlands(twinned with Mordor)

There is one steaming inaccuracy in your post.
I never said "I agree with the churches right  to discriminate on the issue of marriage"

I agree with the right to discriminate on the issue of HOLY matrimony.

If you have an objection to that I suggest that you want God not to exist  for some purposes and for him to exist as the perpetrator in certain issues.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

  Evasive homophobia

Drivel

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry, of course, you are from the East Midlands(twinned with Mordor)

There is one steaming inaccuracy in your post.
I never said "I agree with the churches right  to discriminate on the issue of marriage"

I agree with the right to discriminate on the issue of HOLY matrimony.

If you have an objection to that I suggest that you want God not to exist  for some purposes and for him to exist as the perpetrator in certain issues.

Outright homophobia

[Aruntraveller]

Sorry, of course, you are from the East Midlands(twinned with Mordor)

There is one steaming inaccuracy in your post.
I never said "I agree with the churches right  to discriminate on the issue of marriage"

I agree with the right to discriminate on the issue of HOLY matrimony.

If you have an objection to that I suggest that you want God not to exist  for some purposes and for him to exist as the perpetrator in certain issues.

Mordor. Pah. As any fool knows Tolkein was referencing the Black Country. Nothing to do with the East Midlands. You philistine.

I'm quite clear. God doesn't exist,(I specifically said the Churches, or did you miss that?) but for the sake of argument say God does exist, my point stands - he's a big boy, he can sort out the baddies when he chooses to, so lets the rest of us play nice and recognise that humans should just do unto others...etc. Or is that too fucking complicated for religion?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Outright homophobia

How so?
Aren't you smarting because I said the idea of people like yourself...and indeed myself giving God his orders on arecently trumped up/evolved issues.Gay Marriage and Gay Holy matrimony completely comical.

Rather than any supposed Homophobia.

Do I believe churches and individual celebrants should decide what their religious position on Gay holy matrimony.
You bet your bippy on that.

[Nearly Sane]

How so?
Aren't you smarting because I said the idea of people like yourself...and indeed myself giving God his orders on arecently trumped up/evolved issues.Gay Marriage and Gay Holy matrimony completely comical.

Rather than any supposed Homophobia.

Do I believe churches and individual celebrants should decide what their religious position on Gay holy matrimony.
You bet your bippy on that.

I agree they should decide, but that doesn't stop it from being homophobic. Why would I be 'smarting' about what you think about something that I don't believe in?

[ProfessorDavey]

Do I believe churches and individual celebrants should decide what their religious position on Gay holy matrimony.
You bet your bippy on that.

So if you believe that individual celebrants should be able to decide whether to conduct a marriage ceremony for a same sex couple then presumable you do not think that a religious organisation (e.g. CofE) should have a blanket ban on conducting a marriage for a same sex couple in their church. Otherwise the views of an individual celebrant to conduct such a marriage isn't being respected, is it.

So can either think that a religious organisation should be able to make the decision or individual celebrants, but you cannot consistently think both should as the views of one may conflict with the views of the other.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

There is one steaming inaccuracy in your post.
I never said "I agree with the churches right  to discriminate on the issue of marriage"

I agree with the right to discriminate on the issue of HOLY matrimony.

Ah, so now you're saying that you're not a homophobe but the god you think exists is.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Ah, so now you're saying that you're not a homophobe but the god you think exists is.

Thanks for clarifying.

I think the point is that Littlehilside passing Judgment on God makes me chuckle.

[Nearly Sane]

I think the point is that Littlehilside passing Judgment on God makes me chuckle.

Lying homophobia

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I think the point is that Littlehilside passing Judgment on God makes me chuckle.

A homophobic god was your claim, not mine.

Not sure how you square that though with your claimed non-homophobia. If you think there's a god that's all wise, then on what basis do you know better than this god so you aren't homophobic too?   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Lying homophobia

You should outline your evidence for the charges you are making.

In the meantime can you address my suggestion that Churches should perform civil marriage as defined by law and the moneys raised directed to evangelism.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

A homophobic god was your claim, not mine.

Not sure how you square that though with your claimed non-homophobia. If you think there's a god that's all wise, then on what basis do you know better than this god so you aren't homophobic too?

I never said God was homophobic. That conclusion came together in your own mind and within your own definitions or someone else's you have acquired.

[Roses]

Poor Vlad, one does have to feel rather sorry for him, he makes such crazy comments. He claims not to be homophobic, yet his posts give the lie to that. The documents making up the Bible weren't written by a god, they were written by humans who created their idea of god to suit their take on life.

[jeremyp]

  Evasive homophobia

Can we please quit with this tactic. It does two things: it seeks to stifle the discussion and it cheapens the term.

[Anchorman]

Poor Vlad, one does have to feel rather sorry for him, he makes such crazy comments. He claims not to be homophobic, yet his posts give the lie to that. The documents making up the Bible weren't written by a god, they were written by humans who created their idea of god to suit their take on life.

   



In your opinion.

[Gordon]

You should outline your evidence for the charges you are making.

In the meantime can you address my suggestion that Churches should perform civil marriage as defined by law and the moneys raised directed to evangelism.

Why don't the churches just marry anyone who is legally entitled to marry where the couple, and presumably for religious reasons, elect for a religious as opposed to a civil service?

Given your suggestion, have you established the extent to which clerics would be queuing up to perform civil marriages?

What has funding evangelism got to do with clerics performing civil marriages, (assuming they would: but I'll await your confirmation that they are known to be so inclined)?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why don't the churches just marry anyone who is legally entitled to marry where the couple, and presumably for religious reasons, elect for a religious as opposed to a civil service?

Given your suggestion, have you established the extent to which clerics would be queuing up to perform civil marriages?

What has funding evangelism got to do with clerics performing civil marriages, (assuming they would: but I'll await your confirmation that they are known to be so inclined)?

Evangelism is the prime mission of the Church. I wouldn't expect governmental registrars to turn fees into evangelistic support.

[splashscuba]

Except you kind of are, because you didn't jump ship over the previous departures. So why choose this one?

People are entiled to be inconsistent about their beliefs but then people are also entiled to judge them on their inconsistencies. This is how it should be.

I guess as a none believer, I find it ridiculous that religions have sexuality so high on their agendas when their are plenty of other things in the world they can be focused on. So many injustices. I personally don't understand it at all.

I guess I view (however rightly or wrongly) that people who believe in supernatural beings as irrational. It may be a character flaw but I can't help it.

[Anchorman]

Why don't the churches just marry anyone who is legally entitled to marry where the couple, and presumably for religious reasons, elect for a religious as opposed to a civil service? Given your suggestion, have you established the extent to which clerics would be queuing up to perform civil marriages? What has funding evangelism got to do with clerics performing civil marriages, (assuming they would: but I'll await your confirmation that they are known to be so inclined)?

Clerics certainly cannot perform civil marriages in Scotland. Part of the pact with the state for mutual non-interferance states that clerics can only perform religious marriages. Even then, in the CofAS at present, the Kirk Session - the minister and elders - have to agree that the building can be used for a marriage. Should the minister - technically an elder who teachews - wish to perform a marriage outwith a Kirk, the Kirk Session, and Presbytery may hear any objection and, if necessary, haly it. This has happened in my local Presbytery area twice in the last seven years.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I never said God was homophobic. That conclusion came together in your own mind and within your own definitions or someone else's you have acquired.

Yes you did. You said: “I agree with the right to discriminate on the issue of HOLY matrimony.”

Do you see that word “discriminate” there? You believe there’s something you call “god” (albeit a belief you can’t justify with reason). You also it seems think this god gets to decide what is and isn’t “holy”. These supposedly holy positions are you tell us sufficient to discriminate against gay people enjoying the same rights as heterosexual people.

That’s called homophobia. According to your own claims and assertions, you therefore worship a homophobic god.

I was merely wondering how you manage to think yourself to be non-homophobic while simultaneously believing there to be a god who’s right about everything and who you tell us is homophobic.