Author Topic: Methodists affirm gay marriage.  (Read 34093 times)

Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #150 on: July 05, 2021, 07:00:58 PM »
Daft question and expected response.Since some refusals will be homophobic and some won't.

Nope, a direct and reasonable question: I see you've conceded that homophobia is an issue in your church?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #151 on: July 05, 2021, 07:03:53 PM »
Vlad,

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Gender neutral because that is the only incontrovertible thing about it.

No it isn't. The other thing is that if you offer a right to straight people and deny the same right to gay people solely on the ground of sexual orientation that's homophobia.
 
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Homophobic in this context has the curse of Linguistic fascism and gerrymandering about it. Particularly when you are about .

Just scuttling back to an earlier lie that's already been exposed and corrected won't help you here. By your own description of what your church does, it's homophobic. There's no escaping that, and using the plain meanings of words that show that to be the case isn't "linguistic fascism and Gerrymandering" at all.

So, and yet again: do you or do you not think that the homophobic practices of your church are morally acceptable?

   
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 07:08:49 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #152 on: July 05, 2021, 07:08:19 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Daft question and expected response.Since some refusals will be homophobic and some won't.

This casuistry doesn't get you off the hook either. If a right is offered to straight people and the same right is denied to gay people solely on the ground of sexual orientation, that's homophobia. That's what the word means. You don't get to decide that some such denials are homophobic and others aren't.   
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Outrider

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #153 on: July 05, 2021, 10:35:34 PM »
Daft question and expected response.Since some refusals will be homophobic and some won't.

To avoid the sophistry card of disliking the 'homophobia' term, shall we instead ask if it's discriminatory towards homosexual couples?

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2021, 12:11:08 AM »
To avoid the sophistry card of disliking the 'homophobia' term, shall we instead ask if it's discriminatory towards homosexual couples?

O.
Is the holy matrimony model discriminatory toward the gender neutral model?....yes.
Is the gender neutral model discriminatory toward the holy matrimony model? Yes.
Do I recognise the argument that the holy matrimony model has no monopoly claim on the term marriage?Of course.
Are those here arguing for a gender neutral arguing for a monopoly claim over the holy matrimony model?........You bet your sweet bippy .

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #155 on: July 06, 2021, 12:33:05 AM »
Vlad,

This casuistry doesn't get you off the hook either. If a right is offered to straight people and the same right is denied to gay people solely on the ground of sexual orientation, that's homophobia. That's what the word means. You don't get to decide that some such denials are homophobic and others aren't.   
I think the church, including the Methodists are equally discriminatory toward the polygamy model. They are discriminating against that model. Do Humanists celebrate polygamous marriages? Would they celebrate religious polygamy. No THEY would recommend someone who would.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #156 on: July 06, 2021, 12:39:05 AM »
Vlad,

No it isn't. The other thing is that if you offer a right to straight people and deny the same right to gay people solely on the ground of sexual orientation that's homophobia.
 
   
And if you do not offer the right to polygamous straight people?

Outrider

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #157 on: July 06, 2021, 12:50:44 AM »
Is the holy matrimony model discriminatory toward the gender neutral model?....yes.
Is the gender neutral model discriminatory toward the holy matrimony model? Yes.

How is the 'gender neutral' - or, rather, sexuality neutral - model discriminatory to the 'holy' matrimony model? Does it preclude you opting for that model if it suits you as an individual? Does it deny you the marriage you want?

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Do I recognise the argument that the holy matrimony model has no monopoly claim on the term marriage?Of course.

Good.

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Are those here arguing for a gender neutral arguing for a monopoly claim over the holy matrimony model?........You bet your sweet bippy .

How is suggesting that marriage should be opened up to a broader range of people making a monopoly claim? What practical benefit does throwing in meaningless terms like 'holy' add to the discussion, other than to try to make claims immune to argument?

O.
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Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2021, 06:52:39 AM »
On the issue of churches being homophobic, this current story on the BBC is relevant - it seems some clerics do indeed have scruples about homophobic attitudes within organised religion (in this case the Church of Ireland).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57726768

Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2021, 07:29:19 AM »
I think the church, including the Methodists are equally discriminatory toward the polygamy model. They are discriminating against that model. Do Humanists celebrate polygamous marriages? Would they celebrate religious polygamy. No THEY would recommend someone who would.

Marriage is a socio-legal construct, Vlad, and as things stand here in the UK marriage is confined to two people and there seems to be no current social drift towards polygamy that would result in legislative changes.

However, if polygamy were ever to be legislated for, I would hope and expect that the numbers and sexualities of those committing to a polygamous marriage would be a personal matter for those involved, so that there could be mixed-sex and same-sex polygamous marriages as required.

It seems unlikely in the short term, so this looks like a slippery-slope issue that you've introduced no doubt to divert from the question you've avoided answering - which is whether you would agree that in your Church there is discrimination against homosexual people who wish to marry in a Christian ceremony.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 07:32:34 AM by Gordon »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2021, 08:39:23 AM »
How is the 'gender neutral' - or, rather, sexuality neutral - model discriminatory to the 'holy' matrimony model? Does it preclude you opting for that model if it suits you as an individual? Does it deny you the marriage you want?
It is discriminatory in the sense that it is not the holy matrimony model and visa versa. As the law stands in the UK people involved in wedding can opt only to deliver the holy matrimony model. I think people have been arguing that the holy matrimonial model be scrapped
Quote

Good.


How is suggesting that marriage should be opened up to a broader range of people making a monopoly claim? What practical benefit does throwing in meaningless terms like 'holy' add to the discussion, other than to try to make claims immune to argument?

This makes it seem that the gender neutral model has been the preeminent universal model for marriage and then along come pesky man/woman model supporters and holy matrimony model supporters and chuck in meaningless terms like holy.

That is complete 180 degree revisionism with the gender neutral model actually being the recent addition.
Effectively you’ve started your post as a reasonable pragmatic posing the question why can all models
Not just exist together and ended as just another person who sees no point in the existence of other models also the word holy is not included for cosmetic reasons as you seem to suggest.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 08:59:45 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2021, 08:52:43 AM »
Marriage is a socio-legal construct,
That’s one model
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Vlad, and as things stand here in the UK marriage is confined to two people and there seems to be no current social drift towards polygamy that would result in legislative changes.

However, if polygamy were ever to be legislated for, I would hope and expect that the numbers and sexualities of those committing to a polygamous marriage would be a personal matter for those involved, so that there could be mixed-sex and same-sex polygamous marriages as required.

It seems unlikely in the short term, so this looks like a slippery-slope issue that you've introduced no doubt to divert from the question you've avoided answering - which is whether you would agree that in your Church there is discrimination against homosexual people who wish to marry in a Christian ceremony.
It isn’t a question of slippery slope, Gordon... The Christian holy matrimonial model can never be and was never a polygamous mode as it will never be the model where marriage is between two people. There is evidence in scripture that there were polygamous Christians since there is a passage which rules that Bishop’s must be the husband of but one wife.

So this gives a picture of man/woman monogamy existing next to polygamy in the same congregation. But no mention of gender neutral marriages at this time or injunction against them ......anywhere in fact.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2021, 08:53:28 AM »
As the law stands in the UK people involved in wedding can opt only to deliver the holy matrimony model.
I don't think that is true.

Under UK law a marriage is only legally valid if it is conducted by a legally appointed registrar and the ceremony includes the required legal elements for a civil marriage. So although in the CofE and RCC many priests are also registrars and therefore a marriage is legally valid provided the correct civil wording is included, that isn't the case in many denominations and other religions. In that case a couple needs to have a civil ceremony and then a separate religious ceremony. In the eyes of the law only the civil ceremony has any legal validity in terms of the marriage.

So put it this way - civil marriage ceremony alone - legally married.
Religious marriage ceremony alone (without the required civil elements plus a registrar) - not legally married.

And this is, of course, correct as marriage has always been a construct of civil and legal society. Sometimes it is also a construct of religion but that is an add on.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 09:00:04 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2021, 08:54:50 AM »
I think people have been arguing that the holy matrimonial model be scrapped

No they haven't: they've been arguing that "holy" weddings should be available to any couple who wish that form of wedding (provided that they meet the other legal requirements).

Stop misrepresenting what is being said.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2021, 08:58:38 AM »
That’s one model
Certainly in the UK that is the only model - without the elements for a socio-legal civil marriage there is no legal marriage. Religious elements are a non-required add on, just like all sorts of other elements that couples choose to include in their wedding ceremonies, from speeches to discos - from honeymoons to wedding presents. None are required in the UK, just like the non requirement of any religious element.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2021, 09:05:45 AM »
No they haven't: they've been arguing that "holy" weddings should be available to any couple who wish that form of wedding (provided that they meet the other legal requirements).

Stop misrepresenting what is being said.
There is the issue that the Christian definition of holy matrimony is between one man and one woman.

How are you going therefore to preserve that and have it gender neutral? Make it gender neutral and it isn’t holy matrimony. I thought that was just common sense.

Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2021, 09:07:33 AM »
That’s one model

It's the only one that counts: if your marriage doesn't conform to core legal requirements then you ain't legally married. Any other activities that surround the wedding may be important to the people involved but in isolation they don't constitute a legal marriage.

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It isn’t a question of slippery slope, Gordon... The Christian holy matrimonial model can never be and was never a polygamous mode as it will never be the model where marriage is between two people.

Your sentence is clunky to read, so I'll have a guess at what you are trying to say. If polygamous marriage ever became legal then Christian organisations would just have to accept that change whether the approved or not - just like everyone else - and no doubt they would elect to discriminate against religious people holding polygamous marriage intentions.

[quote}There is evidence in scripture that there were polygamous Christians since there is a passage which rules that Bishop’s must be the husband of but one wife.

So this gives a picture of man/woman monogamy existing next to polygamy in the same congregation. But no mention of gender neutral marriages at this time or injunction against them ......anywhere in fact.[/quote]

So what? Social attitudes have changed a little over the intervening centuries: perhaps some Christians and Christian organisations haven't noticed this as yet!.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2021, 09:12:38 AM »
Certainly in the UK that is the only model - without the elements for a socio-legal civil marriage there is no legal marriage. Religious elements are a non-required add on, just like all sorts of other elements that couples choose to include in their wedding ceremonies, from speeches to discos - from honeymoons to wedding presents. None are required in the UK, just like the non requirement of any religious element.
I take it then that people who think gays should have holy matrimony are the sort of people who would kick up a stink if a gay couple couldn’t have a disco.
What is your point and how does it relate to what we are talking about.

Gordon

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2021, 09:14:54 AM »
There is the issue that the Christian definition of holy matrimony is between one man and one woman.

Then perhaps they need to modify their definition in line with societal changes: all you're expressing here is a fallacious argument from tradition and authority.

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How are you going therefore to preserve that and have it gender neutral? Make it gender neutral and it isn’t holy matrimony. I thought that was just common sense.

Don't preserve it but amend it to avoid discrimination by saying that 'holy' marriage is a marriage between two people: and if 'holiness' is fixed to the extent it is discriminatory then maybe "holy matrimony" is no longer a relevant and equitable model for marriage.

Outrider

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2021, 09:18:13 AM »
It is discriminatory in the sense that it is not the holy matrimony model and visa versa.

That it isn't your model doesn't make it discriminatory - you can still get married in that particular understanding of the traditional fashion in the sexuality neutral understanding, it doesn't exclude you (although your own sense of entitlement might, but that would be on you).  The 'holy matrimony' model, on the other hand, excludes people based on their sexuality, that IS discriminatory.

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As the law stands in the UK people involved in wedding can opt only to deliver the holy matrimony model.

Yes, the law as it stands is not entirely sexuality-neutral in that it gives certain providers the choice to discriminate.

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I think people have been arguing that the holy matrimonial model be scrapped.

No, in the main I think people have been arguing that the law is fine; some people, both within and outside of these religious traditions have been balancing their take on the principles espoused by the religion against the doctrine and finding the doctrine wanting. They don't want to scrap the 'holy matrimony' model they want to update, adapt or adjust it to be more inclusive. Others want to keep homosexuality out of their sacred space - that's what the modern definition of homophobia that you were railing against is, it's the deliberate differentiation of treatment of people based upon their sexuality in a manner that is not justified. Your particular interpretation of scripture might consider it justified - others disagree.

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This makes it seem that the gender neutral model has been the preeminent universal model for marriage and then along come pesky man/woman model supporters and holy matrimony model supporters and chuck in meaningless terms like holy.

It does nothing of the sort, it acknowledges that marriage, and the cultural corollaries of it in other cultures, have occurred in a range of forms and fashions over time, and that Christianity in general doesn't have a proprietary claim to it, let alone a particular sect, cult or take from within Christianity. People haven't suddenly started throwing in terms like holy, they've been in use for a considerable time, but they are meaningless concepts that are just there to try to insulate a claim or argument from enquiry - if you can make something sacred you can remove it from the realm of rational discourse.

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That is complete 180 degree revisionism with the gender neutral model actually being the recent addition.

Ancient Greece called and wants to talk to you about the sequence of events here. After they've finished, the Polynesians, Chinese and a few of the African cultures would like a word, too.

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Effectively you’ve started your post as a reasonable pragmatic posing the question why can all models not just exist together and ended as just another person who sees no point in the existence of other models also the word holy is not included for cosmetic reasons as you seem to suggest.

It's not that I don't see that they can't coexist, it's just that I don't see any heterosexual couple's desire to have the heterosexual ceremony overseen by a religious figure of their choosing is in any way incompatible with the next couple, who happen to be homosexual, having their ceremony overseen by a religious figure of their choosing. I get that individual religious figures might have an objection, but I don't see that it isn't homophobia and perfectly acceptable to point that out.

If you are religiously homophobic the law, currently, permits you to discriminate on those grounds, the Equalities Act conflates religious belief with traits like inherent traits like ethnicity or sexuality, and sets it up as some sort of differentiated philosophy; I think that's wrong, but it is the current situation and it's not likely to change in the short term.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2021, 09:22:23 AM »
There is the issue that the Christian definition of holy matrimony is between one man and one woman.

'A' Christian definition, not 'the' Christian definition, as is apparent from the number of Christians seeking other forms of marriage and the number of individual Christians and Christian institutions having debates about whether to conduct them.

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How are you going therefore to preserve that and have it gender neutral?

Individual Christians are going to have to consider if the important parts are the love, commitment before God, commitment to each other, and approved genitals, or if actually that last part probably doesn't really matter. They're going to have to *gasp* think for themselves.

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Make it gender neutral and it isn’t holy matrimony.

No, make it gender neutral and you don't think it's holy matrimony - other Christians do.

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I thought that was just common sense.

It's religious doctrine - if there were common sense about it, it would be between Goldilocks and Rapunzel in the fairy story collection and it would get skipped a lot because it's objectively a terrible story.

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2021, 10:02:31 AM »
Outy,

Quote
To avoid the sophistry card of disliking the 'homophobia' term, shall we instead ask if it's discriminatory towards homosexual couples?

We could, but there’s no need to. Pretty much any online dictionary you care to look at defines it as “dislike of or discrimination against gay people” or similar. That’s why denying rights to gay people that you permit to straight people is homophobic (the “discrimination against” part). 

Vlad doesn’t like the implications of that though, so in one of a serious of diversionary tactics he’s tried the “ah, but “phobia” means "fear of", therefore…” etc. It’s as if I said his church’s homophobia is awful, and he replied “ah, but “awful” derives “from full of awe”, so what you’re actually saying…” etc. Countless words have meanings at variance from their roots, and “homophobia” is just one of many such.

Oh, and he also has the sheer brass neck then to accuse other people of “linguistic fascism”! 
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Outrider

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2021, 10:06:30 AM »
Outy,

We could, but there’s no need to. Pretty much any online dictionary you care to look at defines it as “dislike of or discrimination against gay people” or similar. That’s why denying rights to gay people that you permit to straight people is homophobic (the “discrimination against” part). 

Vlad doesn’t like the implications of that though, so in one of a serious of diversionary tactics he’s tried the “ah, but “phobia” means "fear of", therefore…” etc. It’s as if I said his church’s homophobia is awful, and he replied “ah, but “awful” derives “from full of awe”, so what you’re actually saying…” etc. Countless words have meanings at variance from their roots, and “homophobia” is just one of many such.

Oh, and he also has the sheer brass neck then to accuse other people of “linguistic fascism”!

I know that, you know that, they know that - we all know that. However, in the interests of closing off another diversionary tactic... I guess it's just trying to pick the battles.

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2021, 10:12:03 AM »
Vlad,

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There is the issue that the Christian definition of holy matrimony is between one man and one woman.

That's just one (not "the") Christian definition. Other Christians think differently.

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How are you going therefore to preserve that and have it gender neutral?

First, why should it be preserved? The Klu Klux Klan thinks black people should be denied rights available to white people. How are you going therefore to preserve that and have it race neutral? 

Second, even if it was to be preserved why not then recognise if for what it is - homophobic? 

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Make it gender neutral and it isn’t holy matrimony. I thought that was just common sense.

No, it's homophobia. And you seem to be all for it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 10:31:01 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Methodists affirm gay marriage.
« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2021, 10:20:49 AM »
Outy,

Quote
I know that, you know that, they know that - we all know that. However, in the interests of closing off another diversionary tactic... I guess it's just trying to pick the battles.

Trying to pick your battle with Vlad is like playing one of those fairground machines with endlessly popping up characters you have to whack with a mallet. As soon as he's been corrected on one cheat (straw man, flat out lie, irrelevance etc) he just ignores the correction and pops up with another one. That way, as soon as the dust has settled a bit he can return to the previous cheat. Have a look at his recent flat out lie for example about people supposedly wanting "holy" matrimony banned when if fact several times now he's been told in plain terms that, rather than ban anything, people are merely arguing that any type of service should be available on a non-discriminatory basis.       
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