Something out of place here.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Australian Humanists have a new leader. British born Ms Nicholl.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/meet-the-humanists-you-dont-have-to-be-christian-to-think-of-yourself-as-a-good-person.

Something out of place here. Do Christians think of themselves as the good guys....or do they think of themselves as sinners n need of Jesus? Since you cannot have it both ways, then Ms Nicholl seems to be regurgitating a humanist urban myth based on an oft repeated misconception.

This of course then renders any claim of having an enforced and continuous experience at the hands of christianity by people who espouse the notion of christians as people who think they are good, doubtful.

[Outrider]

Australian Humanists have a new leader. British born Ms Nicholl.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/meet-the-humanists-you-dont-have-to-be-christian-to-think-of-yourself-as-a-good-person.

Something out of place here. Do Christians think of themselves as the good guys....or do they think of themselves as sinners n need of Jesus? Since you cannot have it both ways, then Ms Nicholl seems to be regurgitating a humanist urban myth based on an oft repeated misconception.

This of course then renders any claim of having an enforced and continuous experience at the hands of christianity by people who espouse the notion of christians as people who think they are good, doubtful.

I think you're conflating your/the theological interpretation of scripture and creed that Christians should think of themselves as sinners in search of redemption and/or grace (a short paraphrasing, I appreciate there's probably more to it than that), with the practical reality that, in many places in the world, the nominally Christian 'establishment' see itself as the embodiment of moral authority with the remit to inform the rest of the world how they should live their lives.

It's not universal, but it's common enough that surely it shouldn't come as a surprise to you - I'm not Australian, so I don't know if it's particularly prevalent over there.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you're conflating your/the theological interpretation of scripture and creed that Christians should think of themselves as sinners in search of redemption and/or grace (a short paraphrasing, I appreciate there's probably more to it than that), with the practical reality that, in many places in the world, the nominally Christian 'establishment' see itself as the embodiment of moral authority with the remit to inform the rest of the world how they should live their lives.

It's not universal, but it's common enough that surely it shouldn't come as a surprise to you - I'm not Australian, so I don't know if it's particularly prevalent over there.

O.

No. Her pitch is you don't have to be a Christian to think of yourself as a good person.
When I became a Christian I became aware of a few such myths that I fooled myself into thinking were true.
Others included having religion rammed down my throat and Christians were odd and possibly psychotic, that Christians were Brain-washed (as deeply held by the oaf tendency in atheism) and archaic ( held by the fallacy of modernity tendency).

I had lots of varied local connections during my time spent in an English new town as a child, teenager and young man but never met anybody who had had a domineering religious upbringing. But have come across a few on message boards who claim intense dogmatic exposure to Christianity but then show ignorance of Christian dogma but hold the popular misconceptions of people with little exposure. This is one of the key notes of CS Lewis' christian writings.

[Outrider]

No. Her pitch is you don't have to be a Christian to think of yourself as a good person.

I'd agree with her. Do you? I'm aware of sections of the Christian faith that don't - in particular I'm thinking of some of the more Christian Nationalist strains in the US, and the Christian authoritarian movements that appear to be growing in places like Russia, Hungary and Poland. I don't know if Australia is in a similar position, but it sounds as though she might think that - I'm inferring that, I've not had the chance to read anything she's put out, yet.

When I became a Christian I became aware of a few such myths that I fooled myself into thinking were true. Others included having religion rammed down my throat and Christians were odd and possibly psychotic, that Christians were Brain-washed (as deeply held by the oaf tendency in atheism) and archaic ( held by the fallacy of modernity tendency).

Oh boy. Christianity isn't monolothic, I think you'd agree with that. Unfortunately, some of the more vocal elements of it are the more self-righteous, obnoxious and self-gratifying. Many Christians are effectively 'brainwashed' - what other explanation can there be for the continuation in large numbers of Young Earth Creationists and Biblical literalism? As to whether Christianity is 'archaic'... it is, at the very least, a typically conservative set of institutions, resisting the social progress time and time again. Whether that makes it archaic, anachronistic or otherwise is probably a reflection of whether you think it is fundamentally true or not.

I had lots of varied local connections during my time spent in an English new town as a child, teenager and young man but never met anybody who had had a domineering religious upbringing.

Right. The Church of England has been gradually neutered by the calming effect of rational society in the UK, the Church of Scotland gradually the same, to the point where I'm assured no-one has a heart attack of a shop opens on a Sunday in Stornaway any more. In places where Christianity hasn't been civilised, though, in places like Russia and the US and much of sub-Saharan Africa, that's not the case. Again, perhaps she's worried about this becoming the case in Australia?

But have come across a few on message boards who claim intense dogmatic exposure to Christianity but then show ignorance of Christian dogma but hold the popular misconceptions of people with little exposure.

You have espoused, at times, a more subtle interpretation of Christian teaching than the worst elements; but you and your ilk aren't the worry, the less informed, less subtle, more bombastic Christian blowhards are. Those interpretations are out there and are weaponised by those with a Christian axe to grind.

This is one of the key notes of CS Lewis' christian writings.

And how many Christian nationalists do you think have studied Lewis' musings on faith and theology? How many of those who have do you think the Australian Humanist Society are worried about?

O.

[jeremyp]

No. Her pitch is you don't have to be a Christian to think of yourself as a good person.
When I became a Christian I became aware of a few such myths that I fooled myself into thinking were true.

You mean it's your opinion that you do have to be a Christian to think of yourself as a good person?

Funny that. I thought it was the modus operandi of Christianity to make you think you are a bad person and the only way to fix that is through Jesus Christ. What else is all that original sin bullshit for?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You mean it's your opinion that you do have to be a Christian to think of yourself as a good person?

Funny that. I thought it was the modus operandi of Christianity to make you think you are a bad person and the only way to fix that is through Jesus Christ. What else is all that original sin bullshit for?

It was my unthinking opinion. An automatic reflex when the topic of Christianity came up.
It ignores the person and mission of Jesus.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd agree with her. Do you? I'm aware of sections of the Christian faith that don't - in particular I'm thinking of some of the more Christian Nationalist strains in the US, and the Christian authoritarian movements that appear to be growing in places like Russia, Hungary and Poland. I don't know if Australia is in a similar position, but it sounds as though she might think that - I'm inferring that, I've not had the chance to read anything she's put out, yet.

Oh boy. Christianity isn't monolothic, I think you'd agree with that. Unfortunately, some of the more vocal elements of it are the more self-righteous, obnoxious and self-gratifying. Many Christians are effectively 'brainwashed' - what other explanation can there be for the continuation in large numbers of Young Earth Creationists and Biblical literalism? As to whether Christianity is 'archaic'... it is, at the very least, a typically conservative set of institutions, resisting the social progress time and time again. Whether that makes it archaic, anachronistic or otherwise is probably a reflection of whether you think it is fundamentally true or not.

Right. The Church of England has been gradually neutered by the calming effect of rational society in the UK, the Church of Scotland gradually the same, to the point where I'm assured no-one has a heart attack of a shop opens on a Sunday in Stornaway any more. In places where Christianity hasn't been civilised, though, in places like Russia and the US and much of sub-Saharan Africa, that's not the case. Again, perhaps she's worried about this becoming the case in Australia?

You have espoused, at times, a more subtle interpretation of Christian teaching than the worst elements; but you and your ilk aren't the worry, the less informed, less subtle, more bombastic Christian blowhards are. Those interpretations are out there and are weaponised by those with a Christian axe to grind.

And how many Christian nationalists do you think have studied Lewis' musings on faith and theology? How many of those who have do you think the Australian Humanist Society are worried about?

O.

I don't agree that Christians started the idea that Christians comprise the totality of good people.
That is a fabrication and idea unthinking acquired by atheist and agnostic communities.
As for the calming effect of English society. What neutered that I wonder.

In increasingly secular England there is decreasing calm. From it's mayhem junkie Prime minister and Government down to the lowlight citizen shoving a firework up his own arse.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't agree that Christians started the idea that Christians comprise the totality of good people.

But that isn't the claim. The claim is that you cannot be a good person unless you are a Christian. And that view is highly embedded and is fundamental to the whole notion of original sin - that you are effectively 'bad' but you can be redeemed if you are Christian. And if you have that view subconsciously running through you like the word 'Blackpool' in a stick of rock, then it isn't surprising that a casually arrogant and dismissive mindset arises which sees good and Christian as synonymous - or rather that you cannot be good unless you are Christian.

And that view has had pretty horrific consequences throughout history for indigenous non-christian peoples.

[ProfessorDavey]

In increasingly secular England there is decreasing calm.

I don't think you can base an argument on a couple of years and a single country.

Look at countries that are at the top of the pile of countries considered the best places to live, those that look after their populations best and are leading in supporting the development of the rest of the world, those that have embraced sustainability and their responsibilities towards climate change and you will notice something. They are disproportionately democratic secular countries, with freedom of religion, but with a high proportion of the population who have chosen not to be religious.

[ProfessorDavey]

Do Christians think of themselves as the good guys....or do they think of themselves as sinners n need of Jesus?

But that isn't how it works is it - the concept of christianity isn't that just christians are sinners and in need of Jesus, but that everyone is a sinner (christian or otherwise) who can only be redeemed through Jesus.

Looked at in this way it is an easy step to see two classes of people - sinners not on the road to redemption (non christians) and sinners on the road to redemption (Christians), hence seeing seeing both christians as inherently better than others (as they've woken up to the need for redemption) and patronising evangelism and proselytism (you need saving and the only way to be saved is to agree with us). 

[Roses]

Jesus no more perfect than the rest of us if the gospel accounts have any credence.

[Outrider]

I don't agree that Christians started the idea that Christians comprise the totality of good people.

You think someone other than Christians was making the suggestion that only by being Christian could you be a good person? Who is it that you think was doing it? Regardless of who started it, it's certainly a view that's held in some sections of the Christian world todya.

That is a fabrication and idea unthinking acquired by atheist and agnostic communities.

Really? https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/can-we-be-good-without-god/ This guy seems to think that it's not a fabrication, he's espousing it in public. I don't know if you've heard of Dr William Lane Craig? Or this guy https://www.solas-cpc.org/can-we-be-good-without-god/.

As for the calming effect of English society. What neutered that I wonder.

In increasingly secular England there is decreasing calm. From it's mayhem junkie Prime minister and Government down to the lowlight citizen shoving a firework up his own arse.

By comparison with the tranquility of the more significantly religious USA? Or the peace of the more significantly religious middle-east? Or with the happiness of the significantly less religious Denmark? Which of those would you like to benchmark against?

O.

[Roses]

Countries where religion of any sort rules the roost are not pleasant places in which to live, imo.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Countries where religion of any sort rules the roost are not pleasant places in which to live, imo.

Neither are many that have been ruled by atheists.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

By comparison with the tranquility of the more significantly religious USA? Or the peace of the more significantly religious middle-east? Or with the happiness of the significantly less religious Denmark? Which of those would you like to benchmark against?

O.

I freely admit that Christianity as a collective has gone badly wrong in America in a way that caused me to spend many weeks spiritually soul searching. Because of what has happened there the witness of all christianity is tainted.

But, of course what is happening there is wrong and the warnings and prophetic truth of a church greviously misled is scriptural.

Oh to be in Denmark.

With regards secularised countries we are living in one which is secularising at a very impressive rate yet can hardly be said to be more happy or less evil. In fact all the terrible traits adopted by a sector of the church in America seem to have been adopted more enthusiastically by British people than americans.

[ProfessorDavey]

Neither are many that have been ruled by atheists.

True - although in most cases the driving ideology is authoritarian marxism. I cannot think of a country where the prevailing ruling ideology is atheism, in other words an atheocracy. And it is obvious why if you think about it.

There are, of course, many countries whose prevailing ruling ideology is religious, i.e. a theocracy and as Roses points out those aren't pleasant places to live.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

True - although in most cases the driving ideology is authoritarian marxism. I cannot think of a country where the prevailing ruling ideology is atheism, in other words an atheocracy. And it is obvious why if you think about it.

There are, of course, many countries whose prevailing ruling ideology is religious, i.e. a theocracy and as Roses points out those aren't pleasant places to live.

If one takes the words of Jesus ''My kingdom is not of this earth'' to heart then one has to question the concept of a theocracy.

[Outrider]

I freely admit that Christianity as a collective has gone badly wrong in America in a way that caused me to spend many weeks spiritually soul searching. Because of what has happened there the witness of all christianity is tainted.  But, of course what is happening there is wrong and the warnings and prophetic truth of a church greviously misled is scriptural.

I don't like that brand of Christianity, probably for a mixture of similar and different reasons to  you, but I can't out and out state that it's 'wrong' Christianity - they have scriptural references to support their stances, they have a position on which elements are to be interpreted literally and which figuratively which are, presumably, different to your take, but there's no absolute reference to determine which is more wrong than the other.

With regards secularised countries we are living in one which is secularising at a very impressive rate yet can hardly be said to be more happy or less evil.

Then when it was more religious? You mean when homosexuality was criminalised, and teen mothers were conscripted into giving their children away, women knew their place and we didn't have 'uppity blacks' walking around like they were our equals? Or further back, with the rotten boroughs supporting the influence of the 'divinely mandated' gentry and the church propping up the establishment in keeping the downtrodden poor but worthy?

In fact all the terrible traits adopted by a sector of the church in America seem to have been adopted more enthusiastically by British people than americans.

Such as?

O.

[Roses]

Religion doesn't necessarily make someone a better person, it can make them much worse if they are extremist in their views.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't like that brand of Christianity, probably for a mixture of similar and different reasons to  you, but I can't out and out state that it's 'wrong' Christianity - they have scriptural references to support their stances,

But it's clear that they have been choosing segments and ignoring others, that many are grifters and that they have sought to add to the bible  particularly the prosperity gospel and the new apostolic reformation.

Their focus and yours is on the old testament. For you and them these are the real christians as was the sparsely populated westbrook church, when Bad old Fred Phelps served as the architype for every swivel eyed antitheist.

 When Christians not associated with this crowd were lamenting. Atheists would have been rejoicing

Then when it was more religious? You mean when homosexuality was criminalised, and teen mothers were conscripted into giving their children away, women knew their place and we didn't have 'uppity blacks' walking around like they were our equals? Or further back, with the rotten boroughs supporting the influence of the 'divinely mandated' gentry and the church propping up the establishment in keeping the downtrodden poor but worthy?

Such as?

O.

I can't recall such an immoral administration and such a dictatorial leader so beloved by so many voters in such a secular country today who have managed by their continued support to achieve brexit and 150,000 deaths from a deliberately impoverished public health. Having said that Welby, Nicholls and Mirvis are conspicuous by their silence IMV.

In America, we only heard about white american christianity of a certain stripe. From atheists, the wrongs of the white Christian nationalist church and from white christian nationalists how God endorsed their churches and approach.
Black Christians were forgotten about, let down by the white nationalist church and those atheists seeking to say ''this is christianity'' America awoke from their nightmare and voted Trump out Secular Britain can be assured of putting conservative right wingers in perpetuum.

What you have to remember is that capitalism is an idea which springs from the enlightenment so beloved by atheist thinkers.

[Aruntraveller]

I can't recall such an immoral administration and such a dictatorial leader so beloved by so many voters in such a secular country today who have managed by their continued support to achieve brexit and 150,000 deaths from a deliberately impoverished public health. Having said that Welby, Nicholls and Mirvis are conspicuous by their silence IMV.

Keep that bloody knee still.

Firstly Johnson isn't beloved by so  many voters. I don't know how many times I have to say this UK governments are seldom reflective of the make up of the voters.

In other words how is an 80-seat majority with just 44% of the votes a "democratic choice"?

The dysfunctional and undemocratic FPTP is a democracy theatre. It looks like democracy, because people make a cross on a piece of paper, but it's undemocratic by design.

Until that changes you can rant all you want about capitalism/secularism and the rights and wrongs thereof, but it won't make one iota of difference. You are tilting at fucking windmills.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Keep that bloody knee still.

Firstly Johnson isn't beloved by so  many voters. I don't know how many times I have to say this UK governments are seldom reflective of the make up of the voters.

In other words how is an 80-seat majority with just 44% of the votes a "democratic choice"?

The dysfunctional and undemocratic FPTP is a democracy theatre. It looks like democracy, because people make a cross on a piece of paper, but it's undemocratic by design.

Until that changes you can rant all you want about capitalism/secularism and the rights and wrongs thereof, but it won't make one iota of difference. You are tilting at fucking windmills.

I'm sorry but we had the opportunity to change the voting system.....and didn't. Reason, love of money. Context, increasing secularism.

[ProfessorDavey]

If one takes the words of Jesus ''My kingdom is not of this earth'' to heart then one has to question the concept of a theocracy.

I suggest you take that up with the numerous christian theocratic regimes that have existed over the centuries.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm sorry but we had the opportunity to change the voting system.....and didn't. Reason, love of money. Context, increasing secularism.

Eh - what planet are you on Vlad, you really do need a bit of help.

Are you trying to claim that the reason people voted against AV was because of secularism

[Outrider]

But it's clear that they have been choosing segments and ignoring others, that many are grifters and that they have sought to add to the bible  particularly the prosperity gospel and the new apostolic reformation.

And all of that can levelled at any segment of Christianity, they all pick and choose which elements they're going to abide by and which are 'figurative' and they all have their justifications, and some of them are grifters whilst others no doubt are genuine believers.

Their focus and yours is on the old testament.

My focus is on reality. I find it amusing that Christians believe that the all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful deity so massively changed their outlook between the original and the sequel, but my focus isn't on either in any absolute sense. I bring it up regularly with Christians because it's a pretty damning example of what a ridiculous idea it is to presume that both works were written by the same perfectly moral being.

For you and them these are the real christians as was the sparsely populated westbrook church, when Bad old Fred Phelps served as the architype for every swivel eyed antitheist.

You're all 'real' Christians, so long as you believe in it and it motivates what you do. Christianity isn't some perfect interpretation of the book or the stories to which you're all aspiring, it's the sum of the output of the people who think that's their goal.

When Christians not associated with this crowd were lamenting. Atheists would have been rejoicing I can't recall such an immoral administration and such a dictatorial leader so beloved by so many voters in such a secular country today who have managed by their continued support to achieve brexit and 150,000 deaths from a deliberately impoverished public health.

I voted against Brexit myself, but I'm not sure where the religious element - Christian or otherwise - comes into it.

Having said that Welby, Nicholls and Mirvis are conspicuous by their silence IMV.

I'd be tempted to say that I'm not particularly interested in what they have to say, but I suppose it can't be any less-reasoned or less-informed than current government policy on the topic.

In America, we only heard about white american christianity of a certain stripe. From atheists, the wrongs of the white Christian nationalist church and from white christian nationalists how God endorsed their churches and approach.

Perhaps, but it's not just the external view in which they're disproportionately represented; they're a significant portion of the solid base that elected Trump, that are enacting various theocratically motivated healthcare restrictions on women at the same time as they push racially motivated electoral restrictions. They are the mainstream religious view in America, even if they aren't in the majority, because if they aren't the plurality of the people then they're certainly representing the bulk of the money.

Black Christians were forgotten about, let down by the white nationalist church and those atheists seeking to say ''this is christianity'' America awoke from their nightmare and voted Trump out Secular Britain can be assured of putting conservative right wingers in perpetuum.

Yeah, those Christians voting for that Christianity and that theocratic spread of regulations, that was all the atheists... The atheists are pointing out that is the reality of Christian America, not because they created it but because it's being targetted at them, amongst others.

What you have to remember is that capitalism is an idea which springs from the enlightenment so beloved by atheist thinkers.

And it's led to technical and engineering wonders, and yet we still have theocrats taking the proceeds of it and turning it upon the 'different' in the name of their special version of tribalism. Religion isn't the only bad play in town, but it's one of the most deep-rooted, pernicious and hard to eradicate. But we're slowly winning.

O.